Ax
Guest
I did. Do you agree?
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fansince62
Guest
exactly. and then a new coach shows up. not much preseason play. 4 games during the season and done. Griffin is accountable...but as many us are saying....there is more going on than meets the eye. the evidence is clear as all get out - this team plays badly and makes atrocious mistakes whether Griffin is in there or not. there is more going on here.
Ax
Guest
He wasn't the same Griffin for Shammy in year two. And he still got more out of him than Gruden has, to date. And if the whole team played better around him, 2013 wouldn't have been as bad for Griffin as some want to believe. And Garcon's numbers came in the now infamous 2013 season.
McD5
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After reading a lot of articles from former QBs and coaches, they all seem to agree on one very painful thing: It will take another few years for RG3 to learn how to be a pocket passer.
With a real NFL QB coach (not Terry Shea or Art Briles) I bet he can learn the system in even a year or two. I'm confident Gruden can speed it up. He's taught many different QBs over the years with different skill levels and has taken many of them to the playoffs and championship in their respective leagues.
So then the decision has to be made. To either let him sit on our bench for the next year or two as he develops, or to let him go sit on another team's bench for the next few years and get something in return.
The whole situation sucks for all parties involved.
With a real NFL QB coach (not Terry Shea or Art Briles) I bet he can learn the system in even a year or two. I'm confident Gruden can speed it up. He's taught many different QBs over the years with different skill levels and has taken many of them to the playoffs and championship in their respective leagues.
So then the decision has to be made. To either let him sit on our bench for the next year or two as he develops, or to let him go sit on another team's bench for the next few years and get something in return.
The whole situation sucks for all parties involved.
Yet they both benched him late in the season and Shanny got dismissed..
in my personal opinion that offense in 12' was not sustainable and for the 'more' he got out of Griffin, we still ended up 3-13 with Griff watching from the sideline come week 15.
in my personal opinion that offense in 12' was not sustainable and for the 'more' he got out of Griffin, we still ended up 3-13 with Griff watching from the sideline come week 15.
MikeSr619
The Cheerleader
here is my rub with the whole dismissing 2012 as a non working offense for the future:
1 - it worked and it was the first time in 5 years we had been to the playoffs PLUS we won the division.
2 - we are going to most likely lose Griffin now because we are trying to instill something that isn't there.
3 - we have the players who can and most already have ran that offense.
So, why are we trying to run as fast as we can away from something that got us more than anything else we have tried in the past 20 years?
Helu, Garcon, Morris, Griffin, Jackson, Reed....are ALL set up for the 2012 offense. Yet we are trying to move to some conventional style for some odd reason. We don't seem to care enough to draft big uglies...but maybe that changes now that the salary cap BS is over?
Just seems to me that you don't really want to abandon what worked for you before if it is still capable of working again.
1 - it worked and it was the first time in 5 years we had been to the playoffs PLUS we won the division.
2 - we are going to most likely lose Griffin now because we are trying to instill something that isn't there.
3 - we have the players who can and most already have ran that offense.
So, why are we trying to run as fast as we can away from something that got us more than anything else we have tried in the past 20 years?
Helu, Garcon, Morris, Griffin, Jackson, Reed....are ALL set up for the 2012 offense. Yet we are trying to move to some conventional style for some odd reason. We don't seem to care enough to draft big uglies...but maybe that changes now that the salary cap BS is over?
Just seems to me that you don't really want to abandon what worked for you before if it is still capable of working again.
I don't totally disagree with that. There is something going on, but it's hard to say what from the outside looking in. I just wanted to make the point a straight apples to apples comparison of Griffin and McCoy doesn't have the same baseline. The announcers even said this weekend that McCoy said he was able to grasp Gruden's offense within a week because he was familiar with the concepts. That gives a pretty good lead on being able to function within the offense.
Yeah, but I, and again.. it's my personal opinion, don't think that offense is sustainable. Griffin doesn't have that same explosion, and when we did try to integrate the read option into the gameplan, we still lost to Minn and TB. While Read Option was not the base scheme, Gruden did make some calls from that system. If you look at a team like Seattle, they use Read Option as an accent and added dimension, not as a base scheme. Even in 12' we only TRULY ran Read Option something like 15-18% of the time. I do agree that Griffin should have been given more snaps from pistol and shotgun, to help aid him in his ability to get a standing look at the defense, and the additional second it adds to react.
CounterTrey
The Team Captain
It's not sustainable with this joke of a line, THAT's the difference. Seattle, Philly and to some degree SF all run the read option with a lot of success, but they all ahve excellent protection up front. It doesn't work if you have no one worth a damn protecting your QB. Then he becomes so gun shy that evaluating a defense becomes irrelevant, he never gets that far.
Dixie hit on what I said before as well, that Griffin because of his background is working with significantly different tools than Cousins and McCoy who have both seen these concepts for years. The learning curve is nowhere near the same.
Absolutely, McCoy has a leg up on the ability to understand the scheme, my biggest concern is even more basic then that. Scheme or not, when you are running play action and Jackson, pre-snap, is lined up 1 on 1, you look his way as soon as you come out of your fake. When you read blitz and have a WR lined up in the slot... you unload quick to your hot route and take the 5 yard gain...
MikeSr619
The Cheerleader
versions and hybrids of it have been working in SF (super bowl appearance and NFC Champions 2x) and Seattle (super bowl champs) so why is it not sustainable or workable here? MN was coming off the HUGE win in Tampa with the defensive strip/TD for the win. That game was a horrible loss. The TB loss was 99.9999999999% on Haslett. Mike Evans gets 200+ yards against you?! I don't count that loss on Griffin even though he had his issues. That was an entire team losing as is most of the losses here.
Even without the same explosion as 2012 Griffin is faster than most LBs and defensive ends. Yet he rarely gets to roll out, he doesn't have ANY run calls for him, and is now asked to be a strictly pocket QB which he has never been. Colt on the other hand gets shotgun snaps, he rolls out, and has calls tailored to his skills.
I just don't understand where Gruden is coming from. Yes, he needed to learn to slide and did. Yes, he needed to learn to stay in the pocket and make reads...he has done that to a degree but could improve. But you are taking a Ferrari and putting a trailer hitch on it like it's the normal thing to do. Then when he can't do what you want you call him out in front of the media and bench him? That is NEVER going to work on any player. If I was Griffin I wouldn't want to play for him again...and that is going to suck for us as fans of this team.
Even without the same explosion as 2012 Griffin is faster than most LBs and defensive ends. Yet he rarely gets to roll out, he doesn't have ANY run calls for him, and is now asked to be a strictly pocket QB which he has never been. Colt on the other hand gets shotgun snaps, he rolls out, and has calls tailored to his skills.
I just don't understand where Gruden is coming from. Yes, he needed to learn to slide and did. Yes, he needed to learn to stay in the pocket and make reads...he has done that to a degree but could improve. But you are taking a Ferrari and putting a trailer hitch on it like it's the normal thing to do. Then when he can't do what you want you call him out in front of the media and bench him? That is NEVER going to work on any player. If I was Griffin I wouldn't want to play for him again...and that is going to suck for us as fans of this team.
So let me ask, pertaining STRICTLY to Griffin, what's your plan with him? Do you re-sign him to a multi-year deal this offseason and continue to groom him, pick up his 5th year option and take a $16m cap hit in 16, bring in a QB with less of a learning curve, or not re-sign him, bring him to camp and if he shows out hope he THEN signs a multi year deal that's less expensive then the 5th year option route?
CounterTrey
The Team Captain
I'd go the latter route. The 5th year option shouldn't even be on the table. We've made him damaged goods and devalued him significantly so he's not going to demand top dollar, but we have WAY too much invested in and have seen way too high of a performance leve from him to bail IMO> I'd sit him the rest of the season and make it clear to him that it literally is to keep him from getting killed behind this line. Then I go all out full bore to overhaul this O line this offseason. Sign a couple top notch FA's (might have to cut or trade a few of the excessive number of skill players we have) and draft line line line.
the defense needs an overhaul but I'm convinced we need a new DC and D staff and maybe a little help at safety and this D could be a top 15 D which is sufficient for now. We have a lot of talent on D they shouldn't be a bottom barrel unit even with the holes in the secondary and pass rush.
the defense needs an overhaul but I'm convinced we need a new DC and D staff and maybe a little help at safety and this D could be a top 15 D which is sufficient for now. We have a lot of talent on D they shouldn't be a bottom barrel unit even with the holes in the secondary and pass rush.
MikeSr619
The Cheerleader
I'd like a crack at answering this as well....
I think you bring him in next year still under his original contract, put someone else (maybe 2) to compete with him for the starting job and see who comes out on top. If Griffin comes out on top, can play like he needs to, and does NOT get injured you sign him to a longer deal. That 5th year option is for QBs like Brady/Manning/Rodgers. No way we pay that much for a guy who has had one good but injured year.
But you give him a chance to compete, give him the tools and guidance he needs. Cousins, too.
Doesn't it seem odd that before Gruden walked in we had 2 QBs that were good and now we suddenly have a 3rd stringer who is putting up stats yet still losing? Cousins and Griffin are 2 totally different QBs yet both suddenly both started struggling in Gruden's offense. Is he trying to get too cute? Is he not running the right plays? Are there too many plays?
I am with you about the TB game being on Haslett (that is a WHOLE other conversation). The Minn game arguably changed directions with the INT at half time, and despite that we still had a chance to come back and win. The execution just wasn't there.
If I remember correctly, he has had a few run plays called for him, as well as a few roll outs. IF we are going to continue with him I agree, those things need to be a part of his arsenal... no doubt about that. But that is just 1 aspect of his game. We cant roll him out EVERY play. We cant run him EVERY play. We are going to NEED him to make those reads from the pocket and execute that aspect of his game as well. I don't think it's as easy as going to a read option offense.
MikeSr619
The Cheerleader
Get some big uglies up front and give him some time to make those reads. I saw games all weekend where the QBs had 6, 7, even 8 seconds to scan the field before throwing it. 2.3 - 2.7 seconds is barely enough time to **** the ball back before you are anticipating getting hit.
We used to scream that our corners couldn't cover that long and there is no pressure on the QB so they can pick us apart. Well, it would be nice if we had the same time or even 2 seconds longer for our QB to make some reads as well.
We used to scream that our corners couldn't cover that long and there is no pressure on the QB so they can pick us apart. Well, it would be nice if we had the same time or even 2 seconds longer for our QB to make some reads as well.
fansince62
Guest
this is so to the point!
fansince62
Guest
we were up 20-14 at the end of the 3rd quarter. 15 4th qtr pts did the taam in.
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