We are not schizophenic lol

One of many experimental iterations ...

Rymanofthenorth

BGObsessed
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
5,640
Reaction score
75
Points
128
Location
I live in the warmest city in the coldest provinc

UTEP


All year we have been getting more and more angry ,first as we watched already miniscule hopes of the playoffs get fed then get killed, then as any sense of real improvement went out the window. So logic would dictate we should be happy that even with several back ups we look a lot better and like we actually still care and want to win.

BUT
with no hope of the playoffs, and with us having been mediocre for over 20 years now, any Fan should understand that we NEED to lose out and get better draft picks, it sucks but the truth is we dont gain anything by winning any of these final games. I would have wanted to win against the Pies, but tbh, im conflicted about this win. that doesnt make me less of a fan, it means im paying attention to the past 20 years.

we should be putting the kids on the field, we know what we have with rex ro we should by now, I am wondering why we arent giving beck a shot. and we need to get after the PR trail, if we dont start finding players, this rebuild isnt gonna work.
 

Elephant

The Commissioner
Joe Gibbs Club Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
24,810
Reaction score
453
Points
1,113

Florida State

So we lose the last game of the year, how many spots would that net us in the draft order?

Or we cheer our team on to watch a division foe be eliminated from the playoffs?

Pretty simple for a fan like me who may not know the X's and O's like you but sure as hell understands mathematics and loyalty!

Your assertion that losing, therefore gaining a better draft position automatically assures we will be a better team in the future is just plain foolish. It is how that pick is utilized! There is no guarantee the player we would draft at 11 like we stand now would be any better than the player we would have drafted at 9 had we lost today.
 

Rymanofthenorth

BGObsessed
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
5,640
Reaction score
75
Points
128
Location
I live in the warmest city in the coldest provinc

UTEP

El, like I said, it may only be a few spots, it may only be one, but as bad as we are, every single spot matters right now. nobody is saying anything but a better draft spot is assured, nothing especially with this team is ever guareneteed, but I can tell you this, we need all the help we can get.

we will be losing value in almost every trade we make because teams know we are gonna be having a fire sale of 4-3 players , that Mcnabb wants out. we need value wherever we can.
 

fansince62

The All-Time Great
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
16,349
Reaction score
156
Points
343


So we lose the last game of the year, how many spots would that net us in the draft order?

Or we cheer our team on to watch a division foe be eliminated from the playoffs?

Pretty simple for a fan like me who may not know the X's and O's like you but sure as hell understands mathematics and loyalty!

Your assertion that losing, therefore gaining a better draft position automatically assures we will be a better team in the future is just plain foolish. It is how that pick is utilized! There is no guarantee the player we would draft at 11 like we stand now would be any better than the player we would have drafted at 9 had we lost today.

yes...but you have more control over who you select the higher the pick. and, it costs less to trade up (in terms of aggregate number of picks)...or you get more in return if you trade down.
 

Elephant

The Commissioner
Joe Gibbs Club Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
24,810
Reaction score
453
Points
1,113

Florida State

So you root for your team to lose in order to maybe garner a fraction of possible worth? You both are familiar with cost benefit analysis, rooting against my team is not worth the fractional gain a loss would net us. Just not worth it to me.

I guess this is one of those things we will have to agree to disagree. I am like those players on the field today who played their hearts out like London Fletcher, draft is a secondary issue. You play to win the game.

Ryman, are you telling me that in your playing day you would have sacrificed a game you were playing in to garner better off-season positioning?
 

fansince62

The All-Time Great
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
16,349
Reaction score
156
Points
343


So you root for your team to lose in order to maybe garner a fraction of possible worth? You both are familiar with cost benefit analysis, rooting against my team is not worth the fractional gain a loss would net us. Just not worth it to me.

I guess this is one of those things we will have to agree to disagree. I am like those players on the field today who played their hearts out like London Fletcher, draft is a secondary issue. You play to win the game.

Ryman, are you telling me that in your playing day you would have sacrificed a game you were playing in to garner better off-season positioning?
I didn't root against the team....at this point in yet another dismal season I don't really care. I watch to see if there are any players on the roster with NFL level talent. Winning is fine. So is drafting higher. 5-11....6-10...what's the difference? I just want this season...like a dozen prior...to mercifully end.
 

Rymanofthenorth

BGObsessed
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
5,640
Reaction score
75
Points
128
Location
I live in the warmest city in the coldest provinc

UTEP

So you root for your team to lose in order to maybe garner a fraction of possible worth? You both are familiar with cost benefit analysis, rooting against my team is not worth the fractional gain a loss would net us. Just not worth it to me.

I guess this is one of those things we will have to agree to disagree. I am like those players on the field today who played their hearts out like London Fletcher, draft is a secondary issue. You play to win the game.

Ryman, are you telling me that in your playing day you would have sacrificed a game you were playing in to garner better off-season positioning?

Im not rooting for us to lose, I just know that losing right now is better for us long term. and believe me I hate being in this position more than you could possibly know. When I played Semi pro we went to the league championship my rookie season, we played in the playoffs for 3 years in a row after that, then we had problems with our front office not bothering to recruit and chasing off some of our best players, we ended up not winning a game in 2 seasons despite still having a pretty solid defence, then we lost even more players and I had a good season personally but we only won one game, the next season we won 3 games and had the leagues best defence and didnt lose by more than a TD in our 7 losses (just had no offence). the net season was the season the coach went to the 3-4 we lost every game again and I played only 4 games before injuring a knee and a shoulder, they allowed a league record (at the time) for points against and I ended up starting my own team before coming to calgary and winning multiple national championships(long story I will tell in the 5oclock one day) anyway I know what its like to lose even when you personally play well, and I know what its like to be put in a bad position and to try you heart out anyway.

In my playing days if losing games near the end of the season would have led to an advantage the next season, They would have either pulled me or I would have pulled myself, because every time I stepped on the field nothing mattered from the gun to the whistle. Thats why I think we need to rest up any vets we might be bringing back who do have heart and playing young guys who are gonna want to show they belong, if we win because we have a bunch of firey young guys then we dont have as much of a talent problem as we thought, and if we lose out then we are in a better spot next year.
 

Ax

The Ugly American
Joe Gibbs Club Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
15,000
Reaction score
257
Points
363

Draft position is completely irrelevant, when it comes to player quality. There is ZERO evidence to the contrary. It is the player, his abilities, and his personal drive to succeed that means something. His draft position is meaningless.

I'm thrilled we won yesterday, and hope like hell to do the same against the Giants.
 

Rymanofthenorth

BGObsessed
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
5,640
Reaction score
75
Points
128
Location
I live in the warmest city in the coldest provinc

UTEP

Draft position means more than you seem to think, yes there are always anomalies but for the most part especially nowadays, teams do their homework and find their best players in the early rounds, so I would say yes there is evidence that draft position is a decent barometer of talent,otherwise the league would be filled with 7th rounders and its not.
 

fansince62

The All-Time Great
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
16,349
Reaction score
156
Points
343


Draft position means more than you seem to think, yes there are always anomalies but for the most part especially nowadays, teams do their homework and find their best players in the early rounds, so I would say yes there is evidence that draft position is a decent barometer of talent,otherwise the league would be filled with 7th rounders and its not.
exactly...Ax misses a key point: it's a multi-step process. You have to uncover the player(s)...but a team also has to be in a position to draft the players it covets most.
 

Ax

The Ugly American
Joe Gibbs Club Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
15,000
Reaction score
257
Points
363

Name the round/draft position that has NOT produced good and/or bad players.

Tell us all now, which slot position the 1st round busts will be in.

Tell us now, which 2nd round picks will turn out to be better than a lot of 1st round picks. Please list the team and the position of the player.

Etc, etc, etc...
 

DieselPwr44

The Owner's Favorite
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
5,784
Reaction score
199
Points
143
Location
Sparta,NC


Tanking the season never works. It only angers the sports gods that much more.

For example, look at the Boston Celtics:

Tanked a season in order to get the first pick to take Tim Duncan. Failed

Tanked again almost ten years later for a shot at the number one pick and Kevin Durant. Failed.

You make/earn your own luck.

Go play hard and let the chips fall where they may.

I dream of a day when Redskins ownership decides that maybe instead of investing big dollars in free agents, it pours that money into the scouting department, where it would be better used.
 

Rymanofthenorth

BGObsessed
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
5,640
Reaction score
75
Points
128
Location
I live in the warmest city in the coldest provinc

UTEP

Name the round/draft position that has NOT produced good and/or bad players.

Tell us all now, which slot position the 1st round busts will be in.

Tell us now, which 2nd round picks will turn out to be better than a lot of 1st round picks. Please list the team and the position of the player.

Etc, etc, etc...
You are missing the entire point. Im not going to argue common sense with you,

IF WE DRAFT THE BEST PLAYER AND IF WE DO OUR HOMEWORK AND IF THAT PLAYER DOESNT GET CANCER OR GET IN A CAR ACCIDENT OR GET ADDICTED TO DRUGS OR TURN OUT TO BE ILLITERATE OR A SEX CRIMINAL THEN THAT PLAYER WILL PROBABLY BE A GOOD ADDITION. there I added some caveats for you that for most people go without saying.

seriously Ax, you cannot possibly be arguing that because tom brady was a sixth round pick that we shouldnt take a QB until the 6th? thats preschool level logic right there.

Obviously even if we have a good draft position we still need to draft the best player available, but the law of averages says the higher you draft, the better the player. period.
 

Rymanofthenorth

BGObsessed
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
5,640
Reaction score
75
Points
128
Location
I live in the warmest city in the coldest provinc

UTEP

Tanking the season never works. It only angers the sports gods that much more.

For example, look at the Boston Celtics:

Tanked a season in order to get the first pick to take Tim Duncan. Failed

Tanked again almost ten years later for a shot at the number one pick and Kevin Durant. Failed.

You make/earn your own luck.

Go play hard and let the chips fall where they may.

I dream of a day when Redskins ownership decides that maybe instead of investing big dollars in free agents, it pours that money into the scouting department, where it would be better used.

The NBA has a far better system to prevent tanking, they also play 80 games lol. and im not saying we should cheer to lose, im saying that I wont be as upset now when we lose as I was 5 weeks ago.
 

fansince62

The All-Time Great
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
16,349
Reaction score
156
Points
343


Name the round/draft position that has NOT produced good and/or bad players.

Tell us all now, which slot position the 1st round busts will be in.

Tell us now, which 2nd round picks will turn out to be better than a lot of 1st round picks. Please list the team and the position of the player.

Etc, etc, etc...
you're absolutely right. effective IMMEDIATELY...we need to trade all our high round picks for 7th round picks. more picks at much lower cost....and since it doesn't matter where you draft....it falls on the scouts to hit home runs!!!
 

Rymanofthenorth

BGObsessed
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
5,640
Reaction score
75
Points
128
Location
I live in the warmest city in the coldest provinc

UTEP

ryan leaf, jamarcus russell, jeff george, tim couch, heath shuler, alex smith, vince young...

ax is dead on with his logic.

LOL I can play the throw names out while making absolutely no point game too.

here are some qb's drafted early

Sam bradford, Matt Ryan,aaron rodgers,phillip rivers, ben rapistberger,Drew brees, peyton manning,brett favre,troy aikman,boomer esiason,john elway,jim kelly, dan marino, phil simms, joe montana.

against that on your side of the argument you have Tom Brady who was drafted late because he shared time in College and wasnt a standout.

those guys were all drafted in the first 3 rounds, most of then early in the first. and my list is more relevant to the point at hand. one against 14?

Ax's logic is flawed and simplistic, common sense tells you that if you just throw darts at a list you arent going to be a very good drafting team, but if you prepare well you can minimise the chances of a bust. obviously the science of drafting isnt set in stone but thats common sense. having a higher draft pick is an advantage that we need at this point.
 

Elephant

The Commissioner
Joe Gibbs Club Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
24,810
Reaction score
453
Points
1,113

Florida State

Ryman, you and fs62 are the ones missing the point! You say, "It's acceptable to lose so you get a higher draft choice!" We disagree! I dropped it, but Ax continues, you attack him then fs62 gives a facetious analogy to try to make him look stupid.

I am not going to challenge your fandom! I will, however, challenge your assertion! You say any little bit helps, but there is not verifiable proof that that little bit will help! Is a number 3 pick in the draft more likely a sure thing than the number 29 pick in the draft? It's all a gamble! Yes, if you pick at #3 every year and I pick at 29 every year, you will more than likely have more success. Or maybe not, Detroit Lions over the past 10 years! But what we are talking about is the difference in spots 8-12. The talent pool is not that much different between those spots. Not nearly enough for me and a number of fans to cheer on losing. You call it acceptance and I will say I would care less at this point if we did lose, but I was excited to see the young guys and some older guys, step up and win yesterday! I will take that any day over a spot or two in the freakin' draft order.

I think Mike is right on when he likens this to point shaving. I always want to win! Your scenario does not guarantee more success, even if it is a little bit that could help. Notice the word if!
 

Rymanofthenorth

BGObsessed
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
5,640
Reaction score
75
Points
128
Location
I live in the warmest city in the coldest provinc

UTEP

its never acceptable to lose El, BUT we have reaped the "benefits" of a late season run that doesnt result in any tangible benefit other than to salve our pride for about 20 seasons now with a couple where we got in the playoffs, at this point, the continued mediocrity is wearing thin.

the Lions are a terrible example El, they have been run by the 3 stooges for a long time but now they are on an upswing and have drafted well the past few years, I would gamble that with some decent management they will be better than us in the next couple seasons.

what I am talking about is very simple, the math says that higher picks are better. obviously there are no guarentees except one, WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING HASNT WORKED OUT. the way you guys talk about the draft you would think you would like trading picks for players lol.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Private conversations
Help Users
    You haven't joined any rooms.
    Chat 0
    Top