philosophy debate re football.

One of many experimental iterations ...

Rymanofthenorth

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Ok so we have gone over some interesting arguments about character, about ego, about reasons why guys play hard, lets combine them.

I don't like the way Shannahan deals with players. I dont like how inflexible he is towards adjusting, and I really hate that he is incapable of admitting when he has made a mistake. I dont like that he tries so hard to mislead everyone including fans, when it gains him nothing. I really hate that he tries so hard to assert his athorita in every situation.

it means nothing but I dont like any of that.

My philosophy would be much simpler and easier.

I don't think you treat everyone the same, I believe in "the jordan rules" to some extent, as long as you are a superior performer im ok with having slightly different rules. many superior athletes are motivated by ego

I believe you adjust YOUR schemes to the players you have and you try to find players who fit your scheme but you still need to scheme for the players you have. I think you adjust constantly and if you make a mistake you admit it and admit it quickly and move forward.

I think you should be open to a point, regarding injuries, you say "uppper body or lower body" you dont lie or make excuses, but you dont give info that could huRT your team or player. BUT WHEN YOU CONTINUALLY LIE you lose credibility.

I think you have to use both positive and negative reinforcement, tailored to the player, and most importantly you NEED to make sure that the Players and coaches are all onside with you and you need to admit that you may not be an expert in everything.
 

Ax

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Al Davis said it best............."Just win baby!"

I will say though, I was not a Shanfan before he came here.
I did not want him for a coach, as I always felt he was vastly overrated. And, so far, I've gotten what I expected. Which wasn't much.
I too think he totally botched the Haynesworth saga.
(With much help from "The Brick" himself)
I agree that the switch to the 3-4 was premature at best, and a "Dumb as a Brick" idea. But, as I've stated in a different thread, I don't agree that we should try to switch back now. If there isn't a HUGE turnaround with this defense, this coming season, we can use it to run him out of town.

But, I hope Shanny proves us all wrong, and clearly demonstrates he knows what the hell he's doing. Both personnel, and scheme wise.

Of course, every time I "hope" for something, I can here my dear ole Daddy saying............

"Hope in one hand, and **** in the other. We'll see which one fills up first."

Unfortunately, the decisions aren't mine, so "hope" is all any of us can do.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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I agree with just win baby lol, I also hope shanny proves us wrong I just cant see it happening.

I disagree about switching back, if any time to do it, its now BEFORE we go hard 3-4 and waste resources but of course that would mean admitting he was wrong and doing it now. remember we still havent committed resources and we still have all our 43 guys lol
 

McD5

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I disagree on the "Jordan rules" part. Nothing kills a business like when all of the employees know the playing field isn't level. The same for sports teams.

Forget the superstar for a minute(and we haven't had one on this team in over ten years). It's the other players that this destroys. If they know they have no shot, regardless of effort, then why should they ever give 100%?

One great player isn't going to make up for the other players not giving their all. And unlike basketball, which has only five starters and a great player has a huge impact, no one player in football is that important.

AD doesn't even guarantee a playoff spot. Nor does Chris Johnson. MJD doesn't guarantee one either. None of them do. Andre Johnson is another. And you can add Philip Rivers to the list.

Like in business, whether it's nepotism or just plain favortism, it kills the team as a whole.
 

Ax

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I disagree on the "Jordan rules" part. Nothing kills a business like when all of the employees know the playing field isn't level. The same for sports teams.

Forget the superstar for a minute(and we haven't had one on this team in over ten years). It's the other players that this destroys. If they know they have no shot, regardless of effort, then why should they ever give 100%?

One great player isn't going to make up for the other players not giving their all. And unlike basketball, which has only five starters and a great player has a huge impact, no one player in football is that important.

AD doesn't even guarantee a playoff spot. Nor does Chris Johnson. MJD doesn't guarantee one either. None of them do. Andre Johnson is another. And you can add Philip Rivers to the list.

Like in business, whether it's nepotism or just plain favortism, it kills the team as a whole.
John Riggins did what he damn well pleased. Gibbs, and his teammates, looked the other way because they knew they could count on him come Sunday. He was Portis, before there was a Portis. Save the fact that he helped carry his team to a World Championship.
 

Ax

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I disagree about switching back, if any time to do it, its now BEFORE we go hard 3-4 and waste resources...
I know you do, and you make a compelling argument for them to do so. I just think it's more damaging to flip back. Especially to the veterans, who paid the price by buying in, suffering the consequences of growing pains, only to then be told, we just wasted a year of your professional lives, Oops!

If we're gonna make the move, then make the ****ing move, and stick with it. If there isn't significant improvement next season, we may well be debating our new coach, this time next year.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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I disagree on the "Jordan rules" part. Nothing kills a business like when all of the employees know the playing field isn't level. The same for sports teams.

Forget the superstar for a minute(and we haven't had one on this team in over ten years). It's the other players that this destroys. If they know they have no shot, regardless of effort, then why should they ever give 100%?

One great player isn't going to make up for the other players not giving their all. And unlike basketball, which has only five starters and a great player has a huge impact, no one player in football is that important.

AD doesn't even guarantee a playoff spot. Nor does Chris Johnson. MJD doesn't guarantee one either. None of them do. Andre Johnson is another. And you can add Philip Rivers to the list.

Like in business, whether it's nepotism or just plain favortism, it kills the team as a whole.

In football one superlative player in the right spot will win you games, we just havent had that player in a long time. in football you can also win with a team of lunchbucket guys as long as you have no holes and everyone buys in, but thats a hard way to build a team and it takes decades.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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John Riggins did what he damn well pleased. Gibbs, and his teammates, looked the other way because they knew they could count on him come Sunday. He was Portis, before there was a Portis. Save the fact that he helped carry his team to a World Championship.

Riggins, Manley, even DG got special treatment according to a lot of redskins stuff Ive read.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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I know you do, and you make a compelling argument for them to do so. I just think it's more damaging to flip back. Especially to the veterans, who paid the price by buying in, suffering the consequences of growing pains, only to then be told, we just wasted a year of your professional lives, Oops!

If we're gonna make the move, then make the ****ing move, and stick with it. If there isn't significant improvement next season, we may well be debating our new coach, this time next year.
I would completely agree IF we had jettisoned a bunch of guys and brought in a bunch of 3-4 guys, we didn't. and as a played id respect a " hey guys we really thought that would work, it didn't so now we are gonna go back and play to your strengths because YOU guys proved you would do whatever we asked."

I think if we stay with the 3-4 there wont be significsnt improvement because we have too many holes and a bad DC. Its gotta be better than dead last tho.
 

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Riggins, Manley, even DG got special treatment according to a lot of redskins stuff Ive read.

I reluctantly cede Riggins because, with the exception of the last 2 seasons his back was so bad, reports are he practiced hard even though he partied hard.

I have to ask you if you seriously think Dexter Manley is a story of a successful player with a chip on his shoulder? You are kidding right? And don't get me wrong, Manley was one of my favorites. To this day, Manley has a special place in my Redskins' heart!

You're going to have to provide a link on DG. He was one of the hardest working players on the field. All reports I have ever seen over the years have supported this. A bit of a clown? Yes, but worked harder than most!
 

Rymanofthenorth

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whoah nobody said manley had a chip on his shoulder we are talking about players who were treated differently than teammates elephant. you are mixing up arguments here. Jordan rules means different rules for superlative players. and Dg was treated differently than his teammates he was just sich a good guy that nobody said anything.
 

McD5

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John Riggins did what he damn well pleased. Gibbs, and his teammates, looked the other way because they knew they could count on him come Sunday. He was Portis, before there was a Portis. Save the fact that he helped carry his team to a World Championship.
John Riggins isn't a good example for about ten different reasons. The biggest being that was twenty years ago, he had the Hogs, and that was before things like free agency, huge contracts and big agents.

There isn't a running back in the league that even guarantees you a playoff spot. Certainly AD, Chris Johnson, MJD, Gore and Jackson don't. So there would never be a reason, unless they are severely banged up, to ever coddle one of them. And certainly not at the much greater risk of alienating the rest of the team.

As a matter of fact, no SB winner in the last 10 years has had the league rushing leader on their roster. You don't even want to be a team that has the leader on your roster. That's a failed model in today's, pass-happy league.

What about a great WR? Well, what's Calvin Johnson led the Lions to? How about Andre Johnson? Desean Jackson? Again.....they don't deserve special treatment.

No linemen are even important enough to discuss. If they are healthy, then they work just like everyone else.

There isn't a player in the league, aside from maybe two or three QBs that are worth letting slack off. And QBs have different schedules anyway.

A level playing field is what brings out the best. Favortism is a cancer.
 

Ax

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A level playing field is what brings out the best. Favortism is a cancer.
And yet, I'd bet there are few teams in the league, that don't use the "Jordon Rules" for certain players. We just don't see it.

We didn't see it back in the day much either, but it happened. I've heard Doc Walker talk about more in the last 5 years than I'd ever heard before.

Riggins was a prima-donna. Plain and simple. His play on Sunday bought him all the slack he wanted. Of course he practiced hard, at times. But he walked out of practice when he didn't feel like it too. Nothing said.

Jordon Rules are SOP.
 

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