Owen Honors

[Henry]

I know you guys have heard about this. I'm curious to hear what you military types think (though I think I can guess ).

My feelings are mixed on it. I'm not sure he should lose his command over this, especially since it was so long ago. This seems an awful lot like a witch hunt to me, though to be honest I haven't seen the videos in question.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/04/AR2011010405432.html

Navy fires Capt. Owen Honors over raunchy videos

By Greg Jaffe
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 5, 2011; 12:44 AM
The raunchy, ribald antics that cost Capt. Owen P. Honors his command have a long history in the U.S. Navy, where leaders have routinely tolerated such behavior in the name of maintaining morale at sea.

But the Navy fired Honors on Tuesday, two days after a series of videos he made in 2006 and 2007 surfaced on the Internet, removing him from the helm of the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise just weeks before it was to head to the war in Afghanistan. Honors made the videos when he was the ship's executive officer, or second in command.

"While Capt. Honors's performance as commanding officer of the USS Enterprise has been without incident, his profound lack of good judgment and professionalism while previously serving as executive officer on Enterprise calls into question his character and completely undermines his credibility to serve effectively in command," said Adm. John C. Harvey Jr., commander of U.S. Fleet Forces Command.

 

[Sarge]

It's a load of crap. The only thing this guy is guilty of is being stupid in this one case.

It's nothing more than an action to appease gays, and once again, on top of people people getting out over the repeal of DADT, we lose an otherwise competant commander for political correctness

Gates and Mullen need to be fired

 

[Henry]

I agree (not about firing anyone, but about it being a load of crap). I think this is something that should be changed at a systemic level rather than going after this guy after the fact. Clearly nobody under his command thought this was either unusual or a big deal.

 

[Sarge]

Somebody did. Somebody sent those vids to the newpaper.

My thing is this., The Navy knew about this six years ago and did nothing. Now, since it went public they're jumping around like ants on a stove.

I'd be more interested in who let this slide years ago and the "Why's" behind it.

And know this. Stuff like this goes on all the time in the military. And the spokesman at the Pentagon that lamely said "Anti-gay slurs aren't acceptable in the military" clearly hasn't been out in the field lately

 

[Sarge]

So they should do away with the Shellback initiations too, huh?

 

[Sarge]

Not from what my former Navy co workers say

 

[riggins44]

It is all over the news around here. The other evening heard he took a picture of Glenn Close, when a guest aboard ship, and used in one of his videos. Sure her being upset didn't go over well with NAVY brass.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1655329/glenn-close-responds-offensive-navy-video.jhtml

From what I've heard, it wasn't just one video, but a series. Everything surfaced at a bad time. The Enterprise is due to deploy in next week or two.

 

[fansince62]

well my friends who are still in tell me a different story. it was even different in the 90s then it was when other old timers went thru it.

it is very tamed down. it was already being scoped when I went through it in the 1980s.

anywho.....here's my take:

- the CO had to be relieved. the first rule is never tape it. this is in part about the Navy being embarrassed...and in part about senior leadership maintaining good order and discipline. the problem is...while his intent was well founded...he can not now administer NJP (non judicial punishment) to others serving him for the same actions. the command chain starts to break down if this gets passed over.

- folks are missing two other interesting items: the Skipper said he did this to improve ship's morale. reportedly....most crew responding on-line said the intended effect was achieved....morale did improve; secondly, the media is missing the more subtle point here - why was command climate/morale sinking? I don't think this is limited to the Enterprise...I have heard rumors of same at other major commands in the military. no idea whether this is pervasive or not....but it may be suggestive of a deeper and much more troubling problem.

 

[riggins44]

Heard this morning that other officer aboard the Enterprised, during this time, may be disciplined.

You have to remember many of us are hearing this from the media's perspective. They are putting their own spin on things.

Had a good friend that served on the Roosevelt, but he is now in Hawaii. Would like to get his take on this. He is a Chief and feel confident he's knows the scoop.

 

[fansince62]

Heard this morning that other officer aboard the Enterprised, during this time, may be disciplined.

You have to remember many of us are hearing this from the media's perspective. They are putting their own spin on things.

Had a good friend that served on the Roosevelt, but he is now in Hawaii. Would like to get his take on this. He is a Chief and feel confident he's knows the scoop.

hey...I served on the Roosevelt for a tour! Good ship.

 

[riggins44]

hey...I served on the Roosevelt for a tour! Good ship.

Tim used to do training with small boats, but not sure what he did on the Roosevelt. All I know while I wait for next snow storm he is playing golf and enjoying warm Hawaii.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I can't fully judge until I see the videos, but the clips I saw were slapstick potty-humor, and I agree with Mike that these are not the type of things you want to see from a commanding officer of a US Navy vessel. I mean, really...how can there be any debate in this?

 

[renaissance]

you may be shocked to read this but I agree with the firing. When you are in charge of an aircraft carrier (especially a nuke) you are essentially influencing and controlling 7000 men and women. So when you decide to go on PLAT television (the TV that every crew member sees) and do things like speak like an idiot, show 2 girls in a shower, etc you are lowering the standards of how people need to act and the manner in which they carry themselves.

when you are out to sea on something as small as a carrier and as volatile as one you need every person to be on point. there is no room for mistakes or goofing around. so when you see your XO/CO acting a fool you feel like it is OK for you to as well.

I agree with you 100%

anywho.....here's my take:

- the CO had to be relieved. the first rule is never tape it. this is in part about the Navy being embarrassed...and in part about senior leadership maintaining good order and discipline. the problem is...while his intent was well founded...he can not now administer NJP (non judicial punishment) to others serving him for the same actions. the command chain starts to break down if this gets passed over.

- folks are missing two other interesting items: the Skipper said he did this to improve ship's morale. reportedly....most crew responding on-line said the intended effect was achieved....morale did improve; secondly, the media is missing the more subtle point here - why was command climate/morale sinking? I don't think this is limited to the Enterprise...I have heard rumors of same at other major commands in the military. no idea whether this is pervasive or not....but it may be suggestive of a deeper and much more troubling problem.

I understand what you're saying about figuring out why morale was low, but the end does not justify the means in this case. See mike's post above as to why. I'm pretty sure sending in some hookers would also improve morale, that doesn't mean you should do it.

Regarding whether this guy should be fired or otherwise disciplined, I wouldn't have much of a problem if he wasn't in a leadership role. But he is. However, I don't know anything about this guy's past performance, so I can't really say whether it's a "fireable offense."

 

[fansince62]

those are all accurate descriptors. I made 5 deployments during my sea faring days - when there was actually a lot less connection back to homeplate than there is now. yes....morale and welfare are always attended to. but that is not the sense here. this is beyond the normal steal beach pic nics, movie night sorta stuff.

and, as noted, I'm hearing anecdotally from friends at different commands in DoD that morale and sometimes command climate is not healthy in a lot of places.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

I've seen the videos and waited to comment before watching them. About the videos themselves - I've seen worse on Craig Ferguson, SNL, Comedy Channel, etc. Does this stuff happen on ships (including carriers)? Yes. Should it stop? The only way to answer it is that it will stop - the brass will see to it. They don't want the negative media coverage. The quicker it is resolved, the better. But know this - there are MANY videos on the internet that have taken place on bases, carriers, ships, subs, etc. I'll leave that part of the conversation and move on.

About Capt. Honors - Well liked by those above him and those who served under him. He was one of those officers who enjoyed a great reputation amongst officers and enlisted alike - a rare commodity. He would often intervene on behalf of any sailor who needed special attention for a family member back home or a sailor who wanted to further their education. That is why he was so liked and respected in the ranks. We can debate the videos and what it means to the Navy, Capt. Honors, and the sailors and it is obvious where it is headed. But know this one fact - the Navy is losing a very popular officer - popular for many reasons other than a few videos. Somehow, I get the feeling that sailors aboard CVN 65 during this upcoming cruise will relate to "The beatings will continue until morale improves" instead of "It was a typical cruise, but the skipper made it much more tolerable".

Mike - no offense, but I will dismiss a lot of what you may say on this topic. You are former enlisted who has taken the low road on a few unnamed officers in the past. It never offended me, but it was certainly noticed and it is coming out again as I read between the lines. You came into the Navy post Paula Coughlin and Tailhook. You referenced Thailand and Australia (other places could've been cited too), but all of it goes back to the Philippines prior to Tailhook going to Mexico, then LV. You need to learn that history if you purport to be an expert on said subject. I also know that you came in during a time when Lt. Hultgreen and Lt. Lohrenz was still very much on the minds of Navy brass. Yes, I'm very aware of what Revlon and Vixen endured, but there were many extenuating circumstances too. Food for thought though - I find it interesting that Vixen defended Capt. Honors yesterday on ABC. Just saying.

The Navy itself - This is far from over. Like Tailhook, careers are going to end - many of them. Many. It is not a coincidence that this info came to the surface on the heels of DADT being repealed. I'm not saying what I know or don't know, but it is not a coincidence. Wait, watch, and see the results. Morale? "The beatings will continue until...".

 

[fansince62]

I've seen the videos and waited to comment before watching them. About the videos themselves - I've seen worse on Craig Ferguson, SNL, Comedy Channel, etc. Does this stuff happen on ships (including carriers)? Yes. Should it stop? The only way to answer it is that it will stop - the brass will see to it. They don't want the negative media coverage. The quicker it is resolved, the better. But know this - there are MANY videos on the internet that have taken place on bases, carriers, ships, subs, etc. I'll leave that part of the conversation and move on.

About Capt. Honors - Well liked by those above him and those who served under him. He was one of those officers who enjoyed a great reputation amongst officers and enlisted alike - a rare commodity. He would often intervene on behalf of any sailor who needed special attention for a family member back home or a sailor who wanted to further their education. That is why he was so liked and respected in the ranks. We can debate the videos and what it means to the Navy, Capt. Honors, and the sailors and it is obvious where it is headed. But know this one fact - the Navy is losing a very popular officer - popular for many reasons other than a few videos. Somehow, I get the feeling that sailors aboard CVN 65 during this upcoming cruise will relate to "The beatings will continue until morale improves" instead of "It was a typical cruise, but the skipper made it much more tolerable".

Mike - no offense, but I will dismiss a lot of what you may say on this topic. You are former enlisted who has taken the low road on a few unnamed officers in the past. It never offended me, but it was certainly noticed and it is coming out again as I read between the lines. You came into the Navy post Paula Coughlin and Tailhook. You referenced Thailand and Australia (other places could've been cited too), but all of it goes back to the Philippines prior to Tailhook going to Mexico, then LV. You need to learn that history if you purport to be an expert on said subject. I also know that you came in during a time when Lt. Hultgreen and Lt. Lohrenz was still very much on the minds of Navy brass. Yes, I'm very aware of what Revlon and Vixen endured, but there were many extenuating circumstances too. Food for thought though - I find it interesting that Vixen defended Capt. Honors yesterday on ABC. Just saying.

The Navy itself - This is far from over. Like Tailhook, careers are going to end - many of them. Many. It is not a coincidence that this info came to the surface on the heels of DADT being repealed. I'm not saying what I know or don't know, but it is not a coincidence. Wait, watch, and see the results. Morale? "The beatings will continue until...".

BB...nice post.

you and I both know....DON'T PUT IT ON FILM. I worked on staffs for 2 future CNOS, a CJCS Vice and a CJCS. All of them....DEMANDED...that the cameras be turned off when there was any risk of the anti-military press spinning something the wrong way.

your feedback on Capt Honors reminds me a lot of what happened to ADM Stan Arthurs who was also beloved and thrown under the bus for reasons you already know.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

BB...nice post.

you and I both know....DON'T PUT IT ON FILM. I worked on staffs for 2 future CNOS, a CJCS Vice and a CJCS. All of them....DEMANDED...that the cameras be turned off when there was any risk of the anti-military press spinning something the wrong way.

your feedback on Capt Honors reminds me a lot of what happened to ADM Stan Arthurs who was also beloved and thrown under the bus for reasons you already know.

Good point about putting not putting it on film. I didn't think to add it in my op, but that is 100% correct. When I was an older teen, my father took me on another one of those Tiger cruises when VADM Gus Kinnear had command of some sort. He did something (that I can't say here) before returning to port. He was well liked, just like ADM Arthur (got to meet him one time - great man!), but nothing was recorded and it became a long time joke in certain Navy circles.

Going to be an "interesting" few months ahead.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

I've been part of the culture for fifty-two years Mike - whether I want to or not. I'm part of that family. Reference the NASCAR thing if you so desire, but these are two areas that have had a great effect on my life. No need to justify my existence in these areas any further.

I really think it is safe to say that no one wants to bring up the other place, but there were some off-handed remarks about officers over there. I didn't care one way or the other - my father retired before you came in. But will I defend any of his fellow officers? It depends on the person and what I know. I reacted in this thread for a specific reason. If you notice, I haven't defended what Capt. Honors did in these videos nor do I care to do so. However, he is not an idiot or a fool. Did he do something iditoic or foolish? That is open to debate and I welcome it. Just know this one fact, his videos did not cause one accident as you tried to suggest in your op. I'll defend Capt. Honors to a certain point, but I will not let you lie about what you think he really is as a person.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

Like I said, there is no need to justify it any further. Did I serve? No. Did I spend time on carriers as a dependent? Yes. Did I spend time on carriers as a guest? Yes. Does the aforementioned two get me a qualification as some sort of expert? No. Did I spend time on carriers as a contractor? Yes. Did I spend time on carriers as a business owner? Yes. I'll stop there for many reasons only because I don't care what you think of me. That goes for everyone here. I pretty much have this cavalier attitude in all facets of my life - so deal with it or don't deal with it. Either way, I don't care.

Yes, I can recall some things that were said about your time in the Navy - most of it was respectful and honorable. Some of it was talking about having a great time. Some of it was talking about bullying others. Some of it was talking about difficult times. Some of it was about places you've visited. Some of it was about being stationed abroad. I'll say it again - never had a problem with anything you said. Never.

However, if you attack someone that I know or have a certain amount of knowledge about them, then I may respond and agree or disagree with what you may say. I did so here. Just saying. But watch what happens in the months ahead. That's all I'll say on the subject. The rest of my views are previously mentioned. But knows this about Capt. Honors - if you had a true need, he would've been your best source for help.

 

[Sarge]

BB...nice post.

you and I both know....DON'T PUT IT ON FILM.

Well, let's admit it, if he ****ed up anywhere, this is it. That is the Golden Rule.

As for videos, I still have a copy of a Predator video that was made in a former Soviet bloc country along the shores of a very European beach. Yes, the US taxpayer paid for a low pass video of young, robust ladies on a topless beach jumping up and down and waving to the camera

Here's my gripe though, and something BB alluded to as well. This has all come out before. Not only did the Navy apparently give the guy a slap on the wrist, but they promoted him. This was evidently all well and good while it was in house. But I guess it drastically changes when it gets in public, huh?

In my experiences, rare is a commander that wear both hats like this guy did. From what I'm reading on the facebook site, he subscribed to the "Work hard, play hard" rule. Like I said, I've seen the full gammut of command styles in my time, from the totalitarian dickhead to the lassie faire types. But ones like Capt Owens reach the pennicle when they can both have a good time and maintian discipline. I had no illusions while working under a couple of Capt Owens types that if I or my troops ****ed up, the wrath was coming. But those same commanders were some of the first ones to fire up squadron parties when the mission was done and they'd be the first ones to crack the keg.

It's just too bad that the Navy didn't have the nutsack to stand up and say "We've already investigated this and Capt Owens has been reprimanded accordingly"

But guess you coudln't expect that from the same "leadership" that bent over to DADT

Check out the Facebook page. This commnet hit it right on the head

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Support-Captain-Owen-Honors-USS-Enterprise/181700525187990?v=wall

DADT has been repealed so anyone that says anything that might be considered "offensive" about homosexuality will get kicked out.