My Apologies to Redskins: Now We Know Who You Are

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Bulldog

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During the preseason and first 3 plus games of the season I thought we were seeing a team that was chronically underperforming its talent.

Today's game I think shows where this team really is at.

When being more aggressive and overcoming some adversity on both sides of the ball (Campbell's 3 interceptions), the Redskins are capable of competing with and defeating teams in the bottom third of the league.

The Redskins were clearly more focused today than last week or against the Rams. They were more confident than they were against NY.

And they did make big plays on defense in critical situations.

That's the good news.

The bad news is that the Redskins were 16-13 victors over a team that was playing a quarterback who literally was at pains to get a completion down the field. Josh Johnson and the Bucs entire game plan was run the ball with Cadillac Williams and find seams for Johnson to run the ball.

The Bucs attack looked like a college offense from the 1980's - you know before college coaches started introducing pro style offenses.

So, while the Redskins schedule continues to include winless or hard luck teams such as the Panthers and Chiefs the Redskins have the opportunity to look respectable and post a respectable record.

But looking at the back end of the schedule we really could be looking at a redo in some fashion of last year's 2-6 finish.

And truthfully, that sort of finish could come despite the team the genuine effort we finally saw today against Tampa after the first quarter.

Campbell. Portis. The offensive line. The wide receivers.

I just don't see this unit keeping pace against the likes of Manning, McNabb, Romo, Philip Rivers, etc.

Andre Carter. Haynesworth and Griffin hurt (as usual). Orakpo playing out of position. Landry playing out of position. Hall and Rogers spotty in coverage.

Again, I just don't see this unit keep pace against the kind of pressure and intensity we are likely to see out of the better defenses on the schedule.

Cerrato and Snyder have delivered a 7-9 type team to the fans and to Zorn to coach. If the Redskins finish 6-10 or 7-9 then Zorn will be the mediocre coach most of us think he is, he merely does as well as the talent on hand.

If the Redskins finish above that level and go 9-7 or 10-6 Zorn will be worth keeping.

If the Redskins are 2-4 or 2-5 by the break then may be time to look in another direction in more accelerated fashion.
 

DieselPwr44

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Can you believe that on some places on the 'net,some Skins fans are actually calling Campbell's performance today as great/outstanding?

The fact the Jim Zorn stated in his post game presser that at no time did he think about benching Campbell....shows us all that he's prepared to go down with the ship.

After what we've witnessed the past two weeks, nothing short of a complete tear down and a meaningful rebuild will fix this franchise.

Management needs to paddle to shore and get off the river of denial.
 

Bulldog

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what is really instructive when trying to evaluate the Redskins is watching other NFL games.

it is by seeing the Colts, Ravens, Giants, etc. that you see how far away this team is from really coming together with the kind of formula of talent plus focus that makes you a true contender.

This team, even after the win today, really doesn't have an identity.

Portis ran for 98 yards but only for a 3.9 yard average. Campbell threw 2 touchdowns but threw 3 picks. The defense only gave up 13 points but this was when going up against an offense with a backup quarterback starting his first NFL game, and who as indicated seems challenged to perform as a pocket passer. Josh Johnson looked like an option quarterback out there today.

The Redskins aren't likely to see another such favorable matchup. Even the Chiefs, despite their problems, have an NFL quarterback in Matt Cassel.
 

Yusuf06

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During the preseason and first 3 plus games of the season I thought we were seeing a team that was chronically underperforming its talent.

Today's game I think shows where this team really is at.

When being more aggressive and overcoming some adversity on both sides of the ball (Campbell's 3 interceptions), the Redskins are capable of competing with and defeating teams in the bottom third of the league.

The Redskins were clearly more focused today than last week or against the Rams. They were more confident than they were against NY.

And they did make big plays on defense in critical situations.

That's the good news.

The bad news is that the Redskins were 16-13 victors over a team that was playing a quarterback who literally was at pains to get a completion down the field. Josh Johnson and the Bucs entire game plan was run the ball with Cadillac Williams and find seams for Johnson to run the ball.

The Bucs attack looked like a college offense from the 1980's - you know before college coaches started introducing pro style offenses.

So, while the Redskins schedule continues to include winless or hard luck teams such as the Panthers and Chiefs the Redskins have the opportunity to look respectable and post a respectable record.

But looking at the back end of the schedule we really could be looking at a redo in some fashion of last year's 2-6 finish.

And truthfully, that sort of finish could come despite the team the genuine effort we finally saw today against Tampa after the first quarter.

Campbell. Portis. The offensive line. The wide receivers.

I just don't see this unit keeping pace against the likes of Manning, McNabb, Romo, Philip Rivers, etc.
I'm going to have to disagree DoppelDog. That you're even thinking we can stack up against the likes of the Dolts, Fecals, and Chargers is delusional at best.

The Bucs are probably one of the worst teams in the league right now and I think they'll struggle to get to three wins this season. Other than the RBs, they have little talent and seem to be poorly coached by a HC even greener than Zorn. That we were lucky enough to squeak by them in spite of JC speaks volumes to me. Sure, we have some good talent in a few key spots here and there. However our poor coaching, old OL, defensive scheme ill-suited to the players we now have on the DL and a spotty secondary all point to seven wins being the upside for this team. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see us drop the next two games and get the death spiral to four wins underway early.

You also mentioned benching JC. At this point, I think that wouldn't be the smart thing to do. No, I haven't gone :insane: (Pauses to wait for laughing to stop....taps foot and looks at watch.)

Look, I've finally thrown in the towel of hope and accepted the fact that JC isn't going to be any better than what we've seen so far, i.e. some bizarre combo of Rob and Brad Johnson. However, benching him will do nothing to help us. If we leave JC in and against the odds he somehow manages to turn the corner, then great, we've got our QB of the future. If as I expect the :bulb: doesn't come on for him, we then lose a bunch of games, get a top 5-10 draft pick, a new coach and (crosses fingers, toes, legs and arms) hopefully, hopefully, a new F.O. structure complete with a removal of Snyder from the football decisionmaking process.

Sure, Collins might be able to get us somewhere near the 7 or 8 win range. However, all that would accomplish is reassuring Snyder that we're only a player or coach away from a S.B. and drop us to the middle of the draft pack. At this point, as much as it turns my stomach to admit it, the extra losses and resulting higher draft pick and coaching/F.O. change are way more valuable to us than the extra three games or so Collins might win for us.
 

BobDiamond

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I'm guilty of thinking more could be expected on offense. Consistent drives and scoring ..We're not going to see this happen. Perhaps some tinkering might spice things up..Throw in Mitchell, Alridge or Mason..Maybe W. Montgomery at C, but JC will still be QB the rest of the way.

As someone else wrote today...The Skin's need more "Cooley"s.
 

Bulldog

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I think you need to re-read :)

I do NOT think this team can compete against the teams to be faced in the backend of the schedule including San Diego, Dallas, NY, Philly, etc.

I think this team can compete with and beat teams like Carolina and KC given the the right circumstances.

To go 6-10 or 7-9 I think Zorn will have achieved what it appears the ceiling on this team SHOULD be.

If the record is better, than one would have to credit Zorn with making a positive difference.

But my guess is the record is more likely to be worse than better because Zorn is IMO a below par HC.
 

Bulldog

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but by the time the Redskins face SD most of those players will be back and SD will most likely be challenging for a playoff spot.

at that time do you think Haynesworth, Hall and Portis will give a crap about that game?

mentally, these guys will already be on their Christmas holiday.
 

Bulldog

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Any look ahead at the schedule is by its nature an adventure in conjecture :)

In this case I am looking at what I have seen for 4 weeks and trying to figure out whether there is any more air that can be added to this whoopee cushion or whether what we are likely to see is more of the same (?)

Nobody knows for sure what the final record will be.

You made the point you thought the Redskins could 'hang' with the Chargers. That is based upon the Chargers CURRENT injuries and players missing in the lineup.

BUT, the Redskins don't play SD until December so the only scenario in my mind to consider is where these teams are likely to be at THAT time.

I think SD is a better team and given the status of the AFC West is likely to be in the division title race to the end of the season.

The Redskins are looking up at 3 other teams in the NFC East right now, and that is AFTER 3 games against the Sisters of the Poor.

I have watched a lot of teams over the years whose veterans tend to give up on a season when it becomes clear the team is not going to be competitive for a playoff spot.

How soon do you think that will be here?

Do you think Zorn and this team will be 8-4 or 9-3 in Week 12, challenging for the East title or 7-5 and competitive for the wildcard?
 
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Bulldog

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To be honest with you Mike I just don't understand how you are so sure a team that beats the Rams 9-7 and the Bucs 16-13 is going to be 'there' 2 months from now to contest a game against a quality opponent that may very well be meaningless in the standings for Washington.

If the Redskins win the next two and then surprise the Eagles, let's restart this debate.
 

Bulldog

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well, if you watch the Redskins enough you will see that the team doesn't have a great record of contesting games against clubs with top notch quarterbacks.

if the Redskins have so many problems contesting games against Manning and Romo they are going to have their share of issues with Rivers and his receivers.

besides, as I indicated, motivation is an important factor to consider.

if the Chargers and Broncos are close at the end of the season for the AFC West title and the Redskins are in last place in the NFC East, who has greater motivation to come out and play?

Again, let's wait and see if at the bye week people are talking about a rebound in fortunes or about which Mike they like for 2010, Shanahan or Holmgren :D
 
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Sarge

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Do you notice that you have given up on a game that isn't going to happen for at least 2 months? I see this more and more and it's just so shocking to me. You have NO idea what is going to happen in Jan but you have already checked out and are calling us losers.

How? Why? What?
It's called a "trend" Mike. Unfortunately for us, it's been going on for 10 years:frown2:
 

Bulldog

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right now, this team still looks very fragile.

Zorn still looks more like Spurrier than the next guy to take a team on run to the postseason.

the Redskins have had one of the easiest schedules in the NFL to start the season and are only 2-2.

with the backend of contenders to face in the last 8-9 games, this team needs to make hay in the first half to have any chance of even being in the discussion come Thanksgiving.
 

Whiskeypeet

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Look, I've finally thrown in the towel of hope and accepted the fact that JC isn't going to be any better than what we've seen so far, i.e. some bizarre combo of Rob and Brad Johnson. However, benching him will do nothing to help us. If we leave JC in and against the odds he somehow manages to turn the corner, then great, we've got our QB of the future. If as I expect the :bulb: doesn't come on for him, we then lose a bunch of games, get a top 5-10 draft pick, a new coach and (crosses fingers, toes, legs and arms) hopefully, hopefully, a new F.O. structure complete with a removal of Snyder from the football decisionmaking process.

Sure, Collins might be able to get us somewhere near the 7 or 8 win range. However, all that would accomplish is reassuring Snyder that we're only a player or coach away from a S.B. and drop us to the middle of the draft pack. At this point, as much as it turns my stomach to admit it, the extra losses and resulting higher draft pick and coaching/F.O. change are way more valuable to us than the extra three games or so Collins might win for us.
I came here to post almost this exact same thing.

I'll add though that I don't think this team looks good enough to win even with decent production from Collins. The running game, outside of a decent day from Portis today, can't seem to get going and pass protection issues abound. I'd rather fail with JC than with Collins and be sure that our 1st round pick is done. As is I'm pretty sure he is done but I'd rather stick a fork in him in January then now.

Something else I'm kicking around is what to do with JC after the year is over? Obviously you try to draft/acquire a new QB. But what if the team can't get a guy they like? Do you stick with a back up caliber starter in JC and try to rebuild the rest of the team first? Among the alternative would be acquiring whatever journeyman QB you can find and going through the motions with that guy.
 
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riggins44

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As someone else wrote today...The Skin's need more "Cooley"s.
This team also needs more London Fletcher's. Heard he talked to the team at end of team meeting Saturday night. Basically he said do what I do and let your play on the field do the talking. Hall said he tries to follow Fletcher's lead.

I feel a little better today, not from out performance yesterday, but from watching the Cowboys and Chargers. Romo and Cowboys don't look that good unless they just run the ball. Chargers...well Norv is still their coach.

Don't see this team going to the playoffs, much less deep into them. If we have a winning record at end of the season that will be a big victory. Campbell and Zorn's trust in him is holding us back.
 

Aston Gambino

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VCU

right now, this team still looks very fragile.

Zorn still looks more like Spurrier than the next guy to take a team on run to the postseason.

the Redskins have had one of the easiest schedules in the NFL to start the season and are only 2-2.

with the backend of contenders to face in the last 8-9 games, this team needs to make hay in the first half to have any chance of even being in the discussion come Thanksgiving.
I have to agree. It's naive to think we're going to stay healthy all year, and even when healthy, it's clear that we're an average/slightly-below-average team. We beat the worst teams, lose to the elite teams, and it's usually a coin flip between the other average teams, with the home team getting the slight edge.

This year's schedule was filled with cupcakes, so even a top 15 team in the league would get 10 wins. Unfortunately, I have a hard time envisioning 8 at this point.
 

Henry

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Cerrato and Snyder have delivered a 7-9 type team to the fans and to Zorn to coach. If the Redskins finish 6-10 or 7-9 then Zorn will be the mediocre coach most of us think he is, he merely does as well as the talent on hand.

If the Redskins finish above that level and go 9-7 or 10-6 Zorn will be worth keeping.

If the Redskins are 2-4 or 2-5 by the break then may be time to look in another direction in more accelerated fashion.
Not that I disagree, but wasn't it just last week you were saying it's all the coach's fault? One game is enough to make you change your mind and think it's really lack of talent?
 

Billfishead

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Well after having read this back and forth between ya'll, I think I've decided it's all useless bantering. Frankly, I'm tired of the nay sayers who hide behind the cloak of fandum, yet only want to complain about the team . Come on people, we all know where the problem is and your not going to get rid of him until he dies or goes bankrupt. Until then, your either with the Skins or against 'em. I for one will continue to be for them, and pray that Danny boy goes under.
 

Bulldog

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Henry, I guess I have just waited for a year plus to see Kelly, Thomas or Davis do anything remotely productive or contributory on the football field and am beginning to doubt whether it is going to happen.

I have no illusion that behind Portis there is a big hole at RB. Betts and Cartwright are 30 years old and neither has the speed or elusiveness that everyone thinks Portis is losing :(

Imagine no Portis. Imagine no Moss.

Zorn is an offensive coach but he can't produce any consistent gains on that side of the ball.

All of the younger players who are developing and contributing seem to be on the defensive side.

Orakpo comes in and starts. Jarmon forced the fumble yesterday. Horton recovered it. Tryon forced a sack.

So, yes there is younger talent on this team but one has to question how many of these guys can you realistically assess and put in the 'count on him' category?

Certainly, no one on offense.

The trusted performers on offense are: Portis (28), Sellers (33), Moss (30), Cooley (28), Samuels (32), Dockery (29).

Where is the NEXT top flight performer to take over at any one of these positions?

The answer is that right now there isn't one and there may not be one until next year's draft or another GM/HC comes in and signs or trades for them.
 

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