If you could choose who we had today

[Miles Monroe]

who would it be ?

Clinton Portis or Champ Baily.

 

[Yusuf06]

Is "neither" an option?
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

 

[Whiskeypeet]

Would be nice to just get the mouth off of our team. But I'd take Champ.....who is (or at least was when he was a Redskin) overated by the way.

I'll take Yusuf's option.

 

[Henry]

Portis. Our defense has been fine without Bailey.

 

[Whiskeypeet]

It has but our offense has been, by and large, garbage with Portis. I'd rather just be done with him and have the cap room.

 

[Elephant]

It has but our offense has been, by and large, garbage with Portis. I'd rather just be done with him and have the cap room.

Our Offense was garbage that sat for a long time in the sun before Clinton got here. Does anyone remember the last time our offense finished in the Top 10 in the NFL?

I really find it hard to believe anyone really thinks Clinton Portis has been anything other than a damn good back for us. I cannot stand his mouth either. I could not stand when he did those ridiculous characters. He had blow ups at Gibbs and he has demonstrated unquestionable immaturity.

But he has been a top 5 RB for 3 out of the 5 years he has been with us. I'd say that is pretty good production.

With all that said, I would not be upset if a replacement was found, but to just dump him would be foolish.

 

[Whiskeypeet]

Clinton plays hard and has been productive. No question.

However, he is a devisive force on this team and despite his production over the years the offense still stinks. I'd be happier without his mouth and watch the offense continue to suck without him.

Not to quibble but he was a top 5 back (at least in terms of yards) in 2 of the five seasons he has been with the team (05' and 08').

 

[Elephant]

Clinton plays hard and has been productive. No question.

However, he is a devisive force on this team and despite his production over the years the offense still stinks. I'd be happier without his mouth and watch the offense continue to suck without him.

Not to quibble but he was a top 5 back (at least in terms of yards) in 2 of the five seasons he has been with the team (05' and 08').

It's all good WP, I should have checked my stats. I could have sworn it was 3 out of 5. But all he needs is a coach that will sit his ass on the bench until he shuts his mouth. You know Zorn can't get it done and I am not sure why Gibbs allowed stuff like that to go on in his second tenure.

I think this medium style of coaching BS breeds loud mouthed players along with lazy and undisciplined play like we have seen all season long!

I believe CP has at least 2 more good season in him. Maybe we can trade him for a couple of 2nd round picks. LOL!

 

[servumtuum]

Actually I see at least part of the problem with CP's "divisiveness" as a product of, or perhaps a downside of, a team owner "buddying-up" to a particular player. That gives them a certain level of real or perceived "immunity" from the input of fans, coaches, the media, whoever when it comes to what they can get away with.

 

[Elephant]

Actually I see at least part of the problem with CP's "divisiveness" as a product of, or perhaps a downside of, a team owner "buddying-up" to a particular player. That gives them a certain level of real or perceived "immunity" from the input of fans, coaches, the media, whoever when it comes to what they can get away with.

Serv, you're right. If the player knows he has the owner's ear, he will definitely be more apt to voice his opinion, loudly. But I would say it goes even further than that. Today's players, 20 something millionaires, are younger and much less mature. They are less disciplined and more focused on themselves than we saw a generation ago.

Unless there is a coach in place who knows how to discipline his players in today's NFL, there are likely going to be loud mouthed cry babies all over the league.

 

[servumtuum]

I almost forgot about the thread question itself. I was intrigued by WhiskeyP's statement about the offense sucking even with CP-the key word being offense. CP gained close to 100 yds today because there were holes created by the line that simply haven't been there in prior games because Tampa Bay has a below-average run defense. I still consider CP a productive ball carrier, slowing due to age and wear-and-tear to be sure, when given the opportunity to do so by a weak offensive line. Yes, Baily has done well at Denver, but if the Skins had kept him and not gotten Portis, what guarantee could there have been of getting a running back as productive, not to mention as good a blocker, as CP has been? Hindsight, to be sure, but given the history of player acquisitions by the S&V operations team, this seems to be one case where luck was on their side. It could have been a whole lot worse.

 

[Henry]

It has but our offense has been, by and large, garbage with Portis. I'd rather just be done with him and have the cap room.

Not to quibble but our PASS offense has been garbage. Our run offense has been actually quite good with Portis.

He's been a top ten (top eight, actually) back every single year he's been here except 2006 when he was hurt. That's not as common as you'd think. In fact, outside of LT it's pretty rare to find a back that consistent. He came in here and did what we asked him to do. If the rest of the team stinks, well, then this entire question is pointless, isn't it?

And remember, we are talking Portis for Bailey. Denver's pass defense hasn't been all that great with Bailey. So by that criteria I'll still take Portis.

 

[Miles Monroe]

There are no guarantees in football when it comes to acquiring a player. Looking at our team right now, our secondary is our weakest area on the D. Baily is still playing at a high level. I do agree he was a bit over rated, but looking at the corners we have right now, I'd take him over any of them hands down.

Portis has done nothing but good for the team. I 'm also one who thinks his mouthing off is unacceptable, but you can't take away what he brings to the field of play. He has a passion that many lack today in sports, and has been productive for us.

The problem here is, it's far easier to find a quality running back then a quality corner. Seems every team out there can find a back to get the job done. Are they all super stars....... the majority aren't, but do more then enough to keep the opposition honest, and gain yardage when it's needed. We all know it comes down to line play no matter who the back is.

To me, looking at it now, I would have rather have paid, and kept Baily. Having him in our secondary would change the entire dynamic of the D, being able to game plan differently. Doesn't really matter who is carrying the rock at this point with an O line that has problems breaking out of a paper bag.

 

[Henry]

There are no guarantees in football when it comes to acquiring a player. Looking at our team right now, our secondary is our weakest area on the D. Baily is still playing at a high level. I do agree he was a bit over rated, but looking at the corners we have right now, I'd take him over any of them hands down.

Portis has done nothing but good for the team. I 'm also one who thinks his mouthing off is unacceptable, but you can't take away what he brings to the field of play. He has a passion that many lack today in sports, and has been productive for us.

The problem here is, it's far easier to find a quality running back then a quality corner. Seems every team out there can find a back to get the job done. Are they all super stars....... the majority aren't, but do more then enough to keep the opposition honest, and gain yardage when it's needed. We all know it comes down to line play no matter who the back is.

To me, looking at it now, I would have rather have paid, and kept Baily. Having him in our secondary would change the entire dynamic of the D, being able to game plan differently. Doesn't really matter who is carrying the rock at this point with an O line that has problems breaking out of a paper bag.

Everything you just said about Runningbacks in an offense is true of CBs in a defense. Sure it's tough to find elite corners, but if you have a good DL you don't need one. Our DL has been neglected for years here. Bailey wouldn't have been a centerpiece of a defense any more than Portis has been for our offense. Most likely, given the play of both our lines over the years, he'd have been a waste of an elite player ... just like Portis has been.

 

[The Burgundy Ghost]

Portis,
Bailey wouldn't have stayed here and Amani Toomer would have owned him game after game every time we played the Giants.

 

[Hog Fever]

I hate to be the luke warm water here but I think it’s as close to a wash as any NFL trade I can remember. To Miles’ point I agree that it’s harder to find a great CB than it is to find an average/above average RB. To Henry’s point Portis has been better than the average back.

All in all I don’t think picking one over the other has equaled one more win for us. Certainly it changes the dynamic of the team but not as much as some people might like to believe. If we had managed to keep Champ (who didn’t want to stay) he would have cost a fortune. We would have probably drafted a RB early in the draft at some point. Too many variables there to make an accurate projection of who we might have drafted to fill the RB slot.

But hey, wild ass speculation is what talking football is all about. So with that in mind I did a little research. The Bailey – Portis trade went down in March of 2004, too late for us to draft help at RB, if the trade hadn’t happened, till 2005. We drafted Carlos Rogers in the 2005 draft as Champs replacement. If we look at the 2005 draft there were several RBs that went before our pick: Cedric Benson, Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams. So let’s cross them off the list. Here are some of the other RBs who were available in that 2005 draft: Frank Gore (2nd round), Marion Barber (4th), Brandon Jacobs (4th), Darren Sproles (4th) and Ryan Grant who was undrafted. There are a lot of other names at RB who were drafted that did not work out but that doesn’t add to the intrigue.

 

[Henry]

That's a great post Hog. At this point I think it's safe to say it doesn't matter who we'd have had on this team. The team itself wasn't good enough to matter.

But since we're spinning our wheels, I'd like to emphasize my point that Portis is not just another ok back by examining the list you provided at the end of your post.

It has been pointed out earlier in this thread that Portis has 'only' been a top five back twice in five seasons here in Washington. I added that he's been a 'top eight' back four of those five years, the four years he's been healthy.

During that span:
Cedric Benson has been a top eight back 0 times in four years (not counting this year)
Ronnie Brown, 0 times in four years
Cadillac Williams, 0 times in four years
Frank Gore, 1 time in four years
Marion Barber, 0 times in four years
Brandon Jacobs, 0 times in four years
Darren Sproles ... well, he's a backup.
Ryan Grant, 0 times in two years.

Now I'm just looking at rushing yards, which I believe is what was the basis for the original comment. We could look at yards from scrimmage, or yards per game, or rushing TDs and I'd bet the results would be pretty similar. Portis is not just some ok back. He's one of the most consistent, all-purpose, high caliber backs in the league, frequently doing what most teams require two or more backs to do.

I know we're sick of seeing Portis, and hearing his mouth, and rooting for a team that quite frankly sucks, but he's not part of the problem. In my opinion.

 

[Whiskeypeet]

Thought this was interesting in light of our earlier discussion.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/jason-reid/portis-isnt-winning-himself-an.html#more

I just received a few more texts and calls from league sources about the Mike Sellers-Clinton Portis incident, and this is not good for the Redskins.

Some people in the locker room wouldn't have been too upset if Sellers had landed a couple of blows (no punches were thrown), because Portis's act has worn real thin with some of his teammates, according to the sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity. His teammates long ago accepted that Portis holds himself to a different standard and often has simply chosen not to practice, and that Portis's chummy relationship, at least in prior seasons, with owner Daniel Snyder is what it is.

 

[Spence]

I'd take Champ. He was a helluva cornerback for us and he left for reasons that now seem very, very understandable. Portis has been a good back, but not as good as he was in Denver and I'm tired of his constant whining and self-promotion.

If it was me, I'd cut him during an uncapped year. Oh, yeah, I went there, girlfriend!

 

[Jimbo]

Portis,
Bailey wouldn't have stayed here and Amani Toomer would have owned him game after game every time we played the Giants.

Maybe, but Bailey wouldn't have dropped that pick six against Seattle. Just stirring the pot.