Burner's Burning Questions: Week Thirteen, Getting New Coaches Or Status Quo

[Burgundy Burner]

BBQ will forgo the grading this week for some tough questions and you are free to answer with your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions. Several offseason coaching scenarios will be presented and your input is highly valued. This will be a two part entry with the second part coming on Friday. Let

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[Burgundy Burner]

Burner’s Burning Questions – Week Thirteen, Getting New Coaches Or Status Quo

BBQ will forgo the grading this week for some tough questions and you are free to answer with your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions. Several offseason coaching scenarios will be presented and your input is highly valued. This will be a two part entry with the second part coming on Friday. Let’s get right to it.

Scenario Number One:
The coaching staff stays intact. Arguments for the status quo include team continuity, no system changes/overhauls, staff is no longer hindered by cap penalty, and all draft picks will be restored by 2015. Does this staff deserve to stay together?

Scenario Number Two:
The coaching staff remains, but a football General Manager is hired as the Head Coach concedes making personnel decisions. Who would you put on the short list of GM candidates?

Scenario Number Three:
One or more coaches are fired, but the head coach remains. Under this scenario, who would you like to see replaced and who are amongst the replacements that you would consider? Do you hire a football GM and if so, who would you put on that list?

Scenario Number Four:
The house cleaning is full and complete. No coaches are retained and the owner decides to look in the college ranks for a new head coach. Who in the NCAA would you like to see as the next head coach or is this not an option? Do you hire a football GM and if so, who would you put on that list?

Scenario Number Five:
The house cleaning is full and complete. No coaches are retained and the owner decides to look at assistants throughout the NFL. Who amongst this group of coaching candidates would you like to see as the next head coach or is this not an option? Do you hire a football GM and if so, who would you put on that list?

Feel free to add your thoughts and ideas. Too, take the time to offer suggestions for assistant coaching vacancies and any other team strategies. The second of this BBQ entry, your ideas and suggestions will receive serious consideration as we formulate our own BGO offseason plan for the Redskins.

Hail To The Redskins!

 

[Ax]

Scenario 1.

It's the only way to insure that Shammy alone bares responsibility for the teams terrible performance under his command.

The new regime in 2015 will enter their reign with a full compliment of draft choices, a full salary cap, and a nucleus of younger players.

 

[Bulldog]

Shanahan likely won't accept any limits on his power so most of those options are a no-go.

I think where this team is 4 years into Shanahan's tenure is adequate time to evaluate him.

If Snyder did fire him I would not take that as a capricious act.

A lot of coaches around the NFL don't get 4 years. And some of these teams making the moves have established GMs.

I would consider seriously making a clean break.

Hire a football guy as GM and let him lead the search for a new coach.

He will look for someone that can work with the core players here.

At the same time he and the new coach won't be evaluating the performance of the coach 'a own son as an assistant, so we are likely to get a more objective opinion.

While the offense has had some success the defense has been largely a mess since 2010.

As with his last seasons in Denver Shanahan could never find a way to stop people.

Even when his offense was scoring 28 points his defense would give up 34.

At least he didn't bring in the entire DL from the Cleveland Browns to the Redskins.

Anyone remember that he gave Darryl Gardener a $30M deal in free agency and he played less than half a season of games there.

He had chronic back issues which even scared the Redskins away from resigning him.

 

[Hog Fever]

As recently as three weeks ago I was in the Scenario One camp. Well actually the 1a camp. I wanted Shanny to remain but I wanted to see the GM/Owner insist that certain changes to the coaching staff be made; Defense and Special Teams. I’ve changed my mind.

Why? Well, honestly I don’t think Shanny would agree to have anyone tell him who to hire or fire on his staff. In fact I think “total control” was one of the cornerstones of his contract.

With that in mind I find myself somewhere between Scenario Four and Five now. I think the direction we take with the GM is the most important one of the whole offseason. From where I sit I can’t honestly make an evaluation of what type of contribution Allen has made as a GM. General consensus is that he doesn’t do much on the personnel side, but there isn’t any way for me to confirm that. He may be more involved than we think. It would be hard to imagine a GM that wasn’t involved in personnel decisions at all.

That’s why I think you have to clean house completely and bring in the best young GM money can buy. I’m not plugged in to the NFL well enough to give you a short list of who those guys would be but you just know there is some assistant GM (or current disgruntled successful GM) out there who is ready to take the next step. Find him, pay him and let him hire our next coach and set the direction for the team moving forward. That would be my preference.

I don’t think that’s going to happen though. My Magic 8-ball is telling me something less satisfying is going to happen. I see Shanny staying and no substantial changes being made for next season.

 

[Ax]

And two seconds after whatever mythical GM didn't steer us into a winner, he would be deemed, not a real GM.

If we win, he's a real GM.
If we lose, his just a figure head.
If Bobby "Jesus Christ Superstar" Beathard came back, and failed, he would have been a old has been.
And, if he won then he'd be considered still God-like.

 

[the Omniscient]

I am going with scenario #5. I have been against Shannahan for a while. I think you look at Scot McCloughan who is currently the Senior Personnel executive of the Seahawks to be GM. His footprints are all over the 49ers team. It was rumored that when he was with the 49ers he had family problems and it wasn't run as well as some would have liked. Some 49ers fans thought he did a great job with a team that lacked talent, others were ticked he didn't turn it around right away.

Hopefully he would bring Darell Bevell with him to be HC. Bevell is the current o-coordinator for the Hawks and he has worked his way up through the coaching ranks. He has worked under some really good coaches such as Holmgren and Carroll. He runs a great and might I add, similar system to ours. This would keep our offensive continuity for some time and this would be great for RG3s growth.

If the Jets coaches get the boot after this season, I think you look at Rex Ryan or even Mike Pettine to run the 3-4.

After that, find coaches that know how to run the system you are asking them to run. This is important **ahem** Shannahan.

I think we start there.

 

[Hog Fever]

And two seconds after whatever mythical GM didn't steer us into a winner, he would be deemed, not a real GM.

If we win, he's a real GM.
If we lose, his just a figure head.
If Bobby "Jesus Christ Superstar" Beathard came back, and failed, he would have been a old has been.
And, if he won then he'd be considered still God-like.

No question about that, but you could say that about coaches and players too. Most times fans don't have the full picture and I certainly don't claim to. That's why I have my questions about Allen’s degree of involvement. How much should he be on the hook for some of this mess we find ourselves in?

My perfect GM is certainly idealistic but hardly mythical. Other teams find those guys. Why can't we? We’re talking hypothetical here right?

The choices Shanahan has made; coaches, scheme, free agents or draft picks have, by whatever measurement you'd like to use, not made the Special Teams or Defense any better. That said, if we slam him for the Defense and Special Teams you have to credit him for making the Offense a lot better. I would have also said he gave the organization more credibility as well, but some of that sheen has worn off lately. Losing will do that. Genius last season, dope this season.

So at best it's a mixed bag. Shanahan the coach has never bothered me. Shanahan the GM/Head Coach/Jack of all Trades has. History shows us it's not a model that works well. I think we are seeing that again. It’s an awful lot to ask of one guy.

 

[Elephant]

And two seconds after whatever mythical GM didn't steer us into a winner, he would be deemed, not a real GM.

If we win, he's a real GM.
If we lose, his just a figure head.
If Bobby "Jesus Christ Superstar" Beathard came back, and failed, he would have been a old has been.
And, if he won then he'd be considered still God-like.

But Ax, that is the point...

If he wins as the GM, then he is truly a Real GM and if he loses, he's not. I mean, you just said it in another thread...the goal is winning!

I understand the quick judgment you're speaking out against, but this current regime has had 4 years to create a clear mess of things. And if you want to clamor on about Cap Penalties, as others have, then I simply ask you who created the cap **** hole? That would be Mike Shanahan for not taking advantage of the 3rd round pick the Titans offered us for Worthless. That would have been the ended the largest part of the cap hit.

 

[Om]

Ah, the cap hit thing. I'll say it again ... based on what I've seen, the competitive disadvantage (read: gutting) our roster suffered over the past 2 years due to the cap penalty is going to be largely forgotten by the fan base and media. It already has been, by many. My belief is that it has had a far deeper impact than probably 90% of other fans/observers of this team do.

And, ironically, I see the cap hit as really the only viable mitigating excuse Mike Shanahan can claim for the failures this year on the OL, and the defense and special teams overall. If he DOES survive and returns as HC in 2014, my thinking is it'll be in large part because Dan Snyder, and the people inside the building at Ashburn, see the cap hit in the much same light I do: coupled with RG3's injury and the domino effect that had, the inability to compete on an even field financially with the other 32 teams for quality replacements at key weak positions proved too much to overcome.

 

[Ax]

But Ax, that is the point...

If he wins as the GM, then he is truly a Real GM and if he loses, he's not. I mean, you just said it in another thread...the goal is winning!

I understand the quick judgment you're speaking out against, but this current regime has had 4 years to create a clear mess of things. And if you want to clamor on about Cap Penalties, as others have, then I simply ask you who created the cap **** hole? That would be Mike Shanahan for not taking advantage of the 3rd round pick the Titans offered us for Worthless. That would have been the ended the largest part of the cap hit.

1. My real point is to express how fickle fans are. It's like they somehow believe that someone called for a play that loses 3 yards, instead of the one that gains 7, and a first down. It wouldn't matter who was hired as a GM. Even if his track record was off the chart, if he didn't win here, he would be written off somehow by those who think they know better. Hell, half of Beathard's drafts here weren't much better than Cerrato's. One, was a walk off grandslam. A couple were damn good. A couple were average, and the rest were useless. He would be run out of town today, by all the internet GM's. He made some of the dumbest moves in our history. He's forgiven because of the wins. Doesn't make some of his moves any less inept.

2. I'm one who has always said that Shanny is 100% responsible for the cap hit. However, trading Flabsworth would have still resulted in us taking the full hit of his remaining "guaranteed" salary that year. I agree we should have done it, and gotten the 3rd. But the salary hit wouldn't have been avoided with the trade.

And, regardless of whose fault it is, it's not even disputable that it (the illegal cap penalty) hindered our ability, greatly, to enhance the roster.

 

[Boone]

Ax, if you aren't 100% in rip-it-up, burn-someone-in-effigy mode, you might as well not post here right now. Everyone knows exactly what the problems are, exactly who needs to be punished for them, and it's not even about incompetence anymore, it's about character flaws. It's funny to me how none of the Nostradamus' here were screaming that the wheels were about to come off, how every decision the current regime ever made was the wrong one, when we were winning the NFC East crown last year. If you express anything other than a desire to grab a torch and join the mob, you're 'making excuses' or clueless.

Honestly - I hate to say it - but Redskins fans to a large extent are pussies. A season like this one is painful for anyone who roots for this team, but there are a lot of NFL fans who've never had anything close to the joy Redskins fans have gotten to experience, even if we've been mostly wandering in the desert for quite a few years. This year sucks. For the most part, the Shanahan era has sucked. But there have been mitigating factors leading to this season. One of our organizational problems is we lack conviction - of any kind. The fans lack it, Snyder lacks it, the organization lacks it. We don't have the stomach for the long haul. Don't get me wrong, if the Shanahans are shown the door, they'll have earned it, at least in terms of 'today's NFL' where the expectations for success are pretty ridiculously unrealistic. What bothers me is the degree of vitriol, anger, and need to totally tear apart the people 'responsible' for our poor wretched unhappiness. One consistent thing I've heard the players and coaches say over and over again is that folks outside the organization don't know what's going on. But man, every NFL coach/GM in waiting here sure as hell thinks they do.

 

[riggins44]

Scenario #3 is interesting. Snyder could say you need to replace Kyle, Haslett, and Burns. This would put ball in Shanahan's court. He could replace them or resign to keep from firing his son. If refuses to fire them then Snyder could clean house with just cause. Then there could be a compromise to where Shanahan agrees to fire Haslett and Burns, but keep Kyle and get a true football GM not named Vinny.

This should be a much more interesting off season as compared to last year.

 

[tshile]

scenario #2 is my favorite and honestly I'd never really thought of it.

Shanahan gets to stay (and make his own decision on the staff; hasslet, burns, et al) but a GM gets placed above him. That way Shanahan can't blow our draft picks (via trade or otherwise) or the new found cap money in a 'win now to save my job' mode. All player moves must be approved by the GM. This is to preserve the long term viability of the franchise.

Maybe that person is Allen, maybe it's someone else, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know who it should/shouldn't be except that it shouldn't be Shanahan.

If year 5 sucks and Shanahan has to go, at least we didn't let him waste our cap space/picks trying to save his job.
If year 5 works out and Shanahan and staff stay, we should be even better down the road.

I hate the headcoach is the GM system. I think it's fundamentally flawed. Head coaches and GM's need two different mindsets that just do not work together.

If snyder was smart he'd do this. The conversation would be simple: Mike, you get year 5 to prove yourself just like you asked, but I'll be damned if I'll let you leave the organization screwed draft/cap wise by you failing to save your job.

If Mike doesn't like it then **** him, fire him. He doesn't exactly have much of a case to not be fired anyways.

 

[SkinsFTW]

Listening to McNair talking about firing Kubiak on NFLN right now makes me realize he'd have fired Shanahan after the 2011 season or mid-season after the John Beck idiocy.

I'm pretty sure that Snyder keeps Shanahan around. He's too in love with big names to ever build the team the right way so the beat we can hope for is that Shanahan somehow lucks into everything falling right into place next off season.

BTW i was against hiring him in the first place. Coaches never win a SB with a 2nd team and the odds of us building a top 2-3 defense, having the best OL in the league with the leagues best TE and RB, and a HOF QB, and 2 pro bowl recievers is extremely low, but thats what it took Shanahan in Denver.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

" It's funny to me how none of the Nostradamus' here were screaming that the wheels were about to come off, how every decision the current regime ever made was the wrong one, when we were winning the NFC East crown last year. If you express anything other than a desire to grab a torch and join the mob, you're 'making excuses' or clueless."

Ahem. I believe there was at least one person here who was pretty damn vocal, and someone changed his profile to eeyore because of it.
I am not happy at being right, in fact if anything im more irritated, being Cassandra is never fun.

 

[Goaldeje]

I'd love to meet Pavlov, is he around?

 

[tshile]

then I simply ask you who created the cap **** hole?

Snyder and Cerrato when they made Hall and Haynesworth's contracts. The options were have the players or get rid of them and risk the cap penalty (well, restructure their contracts, get rid of haynesworth, we obviously kept hall). The amount was equal to the cap space they saved by moving their contracts into the uncapped year. That's how the penalty was reasoned.

The whole thing revolved around a decade plus of bad contracts and the redskins attempted to get out of them and the league said - no, you'll pay for what you've done over the last 10 years. All of which occurred pre-Shanahan.

 

[tshile]

Ah, the cap hit thing. I'll say it again ... based on what I've seen, the competitive disadvantage (read: gutting) our roster suffered over the past 2 years due to the cap penalty is going to be largely forgotten by the fan base and media. It already has been, by many. My belief is that it has had a far deeper impact than probably 90% of other fans/observers of this team do.

And, ironically, I see the cap hit as really the only viable mitigating excuse Mike Shanahan can claim for the failures this year on the OL, and the defense and special teams overall. If he DOES survive and returns as HC in 2014, my thinking is it'll be in large part because Dan Snyder, and the people inside the building at Ashburn, see the cap hit in the much same light I do: coupled with RG3's injury and the domino effect that had, the inability to compete on an even field financially with the other 32 teams for quality replacements at key weak positions proved too much to overcome.

The reason for dismissing the cap space is that Shanahan missed so often on the money he did spend, assuming having more money to spend would fix that is not logical.

I agree with you, I'm just posting what I've heard many people use as a reason to dismiss the cap penalty.

 

[tshile]

Ax, if you aren't 100% in rip-it-up, burn-someone-in-effigy mode, you might as well not post here right now. Everyone knows exactly what the problems are, exactly who needs to be punished for them, and it's not even about incompetence anymore, it's about character flaws. It's funny to me how none of the Nostradamus' here were screaming that the wheels were about to come off, how every decision the current regime ever made was the wrong one, when we were winning the NFC East crown last year. If you express anything other than a desire to grab a torch and join the mob, you're 'making excuses' or clueless.

Honestly - I hate to say it - but Redskins fans to a large extent are pussies. A season like this one is painful for anyone who roots for this team, but there are a lot of NFL fans who've never had anything close to the joy Redskins fans have gotten to experience, even if we've been mostly wandering in the desert for quite a few years. This year sucks. For the most part, the Shanahan era has sucked. But there have been mitigating factors leading to this season. One of our organizational problems is we lack conviction - of any kind. The fans lack it, Snyder lacks it, the organization lacks it. We don't have the stomach for the long haul. Don't get me wrong, if the Shanahans are shown the door, they'll have earned it, at least in terms of 'today's NFL' where the expectations for success are pretty ridiculously unrealistic. What bothers me is the degree of vitriol, anger, and need to totally tear apart the people 'responsible' for our poor wretched unhappiness. One consistent thing I've heard the players and coaches say over and over again is that folks outside the organization don't know what's going on. But man, every NFL coach/GM in waiting here sure as hell thinks they do.

That's great and all, but the people that have been saying negative things (before the start of the season) got attacked the same way.

It's the way it is. All the pro-Shanahan people had their moment at the end of last year and for most of the offseason (except for the injury situation), and now the anti-Shanahan are having their time.

There were plenty of people talking about how this team wasn't nearly as good as the rest of us thought before the season started.

For what it's worth, I wasn't one of them. I bought on fully to the idea that this team was on its way to elite status after last season. I was duped (unless this is a slump of a year.) I was one of the ones pointing out all these issues with Griffin over the offseason, but I didn't think they would translate into a 3-9 start.

I think you're spot on about not having a stomach for the long haul. I find it ridiculously ironic that in many ways the majority of the fanbase resembles the owner they claim to hate.