BGO.C.D.: Taking Our Medicine

[Boone]

Patience. It may be a virtue, but for Redskins fans, it is a commodity in short supply. And who can blame them? With a new regime rotating in...

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[Rymanofthenorth]

I went and subscribed, so I could read the story. frankly I couldnt disagree more with the apologist tone of that article, we dont have c talent on defence except at the coordinator spot, and the failure of the defence is strictly on shannahan imho.

I dont blame fans for getting excited, the offence made some supposedly huge upgrades which given the state of the O last year should have gotten people excited, the abject failure of this defence isnt something that coaching will fix, so giving it time is stupid, we either have the players to play it or we do not, you cant coach up the guys we have so why waste time teaching guys who wont be here?

I did like a lot of the articles tho, cool newsletter.

 

[Boone]

Well - I won't bite on any of the loaded words you threw out there. I'll give a little better response when I have a few moments, but think you missed the overall point, which is that fans demand patience but essentially can't muster it up themselves. Where we ARE or AREN'T 6 months in really isn't particularly relevant.

 

[Om]

Love your passion, brother Ryman, but I do have to say you did a damn fine job of illustrating the point.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Well - I won't bite on any of the loaded words you threw out there. I'll give a little better response when I have a few moments, but think you missed the overall point, which is that fans demand patience but essentially can't muster it up themselves. Where we ARE or AREN'T 6 months in really isn't particularly relevant.

I think my point really is that if the organisation isnt patient, and Shannahan hasnt shown the ability to be patient, then its sort of hypocritical to call out the fans for being impatient.

Would I be more patient if we had a full wallet of draft picks and only a few holes to fill? Yes.

Would I be more patient if we had a young roster filled with up and coming talent that just needed time to develop? yes

will I be patient with an ancient team who really has time as its greatest enemy and a bunch of players who wont be here next year? nope.

Shannahan made several win now moves, now if those were just "steadying" moves as many claim, that fine, but they are still essentially win now moves.
Just because he made one stupid move that was not a win now move doesnt mean he gets a pass on this season. I only saw one move this year that was a build for the future move and that was drafting Williams. even our free agency was short sighted, we whiffed on running backs and receivers, we didnt sign any stud free agents and we didnt really go hard after anyone elses young players.


If you want the fans to be patient, you need to give them something to look forward to, aging has beens isnt gonna cut the mustard, right now Id rather be in the lions boat, yeah they have lost several tight games but they have youth across the board and are building what should be (with coaching) a very solid team who will be a contender for years.

you want me to be patient? tell me now, how many players from the offence will be on this team in 3 seasons when we are contending for the super bowl? because it really should only take 3 seasons for any team to become a contender. now tell me how many from this defence will still be here and starting?

My main point I guess, is that you either rebuild, or reload, there really is no in between unless you have youth and stability, we havent had either for a long time.

 

[Goaldeje]

Ooh, good question Mike. Tough one. I can forgive bringing in Deion, BSmith, Carrier, George, et all, bc as a fan, that's probably exactly what I would have done.

We were moving in the right direction with Schotty. In fact, if memory serves, didn't we lose several of those first five games bc of missed FGs? That seasocould easily have swung the other way.

But the Zorn thing? Yikes. It wasn't just that he hired someone who had never been a coordinator before, it was that he hired him as an O-Coordinator before hiring a head coach, and then seemed shocked that no head coach wanted the job, not being able to choose their own staff. Cluster**** all the way around.

I would throw in his incessant man love for Vinny. I hesitate to even type this, but I am not sure we have seen the last of Bug Eyes. Snyder just can't seem to quit him. <shudder>
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[fansince62]

not sure Mike and Goaldie.....I remember thinking back then that the discipline Shotty brought was healthy...but his established record of failure when it counts and overly conservative brand of offensive football weighed in on the negative side.

you know....none of us have really answered for how it is the team was walloped so badly last Monday. when it happened against the Pats we all knew why. I'm not so sure against the Iggles...yea...Vick played lights out....but there's got to be more to it than that. is the talent gulf that great? do we have that far to go?

 

[Goaldeje]

Considering we were coming off how many years of failing to make the playoffs under Norv, not winning as much in the playoffs seemed (and seems) like a decent tradeoff to me.
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[Rymanofthenorth]

See, I dont buy that comparison at all for one thing the patsies that year were dominant, we were far from the only team that got whupped. we were suffereing a serious bunch of injuries and they just beat up on us, however they scored what they scored without calling the dogs off (as I believe it should be) now the fecals game was a different animal, we looked unprepared after coming off a bye week, we didnt do anything on either side of the ball and our defence looked about as pathetic a defence as I have ever seen. they ran, passed, qb keeper'd lol and basically had their way with us without even buying us dinner. if it was strictly a talent thing , we wouldnt have beaten them previously, this boiled down to preparation, coaching and adjustments, they simply outcoached, outadjusted and outplayed us.

 

[servumtuum]

not sure Mike and Goaldie.....I remember thinking back then that the discipline Shotty brought was healthy...but his established record of failure when it counts and overly conservative brand of offensive football weighed in on the negative side.

you know....none of us have really answered for how it is the team was walloped so badly last Monday. when it happened against the Pats we all knew why. I'm not so sure against the Iggles...yea...Vick played lights out....but there's got to be more to it than that. is the talent gulf that great? do we have that far to go?

Starting with the second paragraph first, fansince, I've ben puzzled by what happened in that game myself. It seemed as if that first long TD pass by Vick was like an unexpected left hook in the first round of a prizefight-they acted out-of-it like they weren't even aware they were in a game. The defense seemed baffled by their inability to get at Vick and stop him-maybe they were expecting a repeat of the last meetup? I'm not really sure but it was unusual because it was a reaction I hadn't seen. It took until the second quarter for the team to regain consciousness.

One thing, though, I don't necessarily see this as symptomatic of a systemic weakness but more of a random glitch, one of those unpleasant extreme variations in performance mode teams can suffer from time to time. We're not good enough at this point to maintain a consistent play level even if, as I think, that play level is a middle of the pack .500 type team with a high level of variation in performance from game to game. In statistical terms-this game was an outlier.

Schottenheimer? An unusual season and situation to say the least. Starting out 0-5 and ending 8-8? Of course, his firing of Cerrato ranks as one of the most egregious lapses of situational awareness ever.

 

[Elephant]

Schottenheimer? An unusual season and situation to say the least. Starting out 0-5 and ending 8-8? Of course, his firing of Cerrato ranks as one of the most egregious lapses of situational awareness ever.

But insightful to say the least.

I would have to say the Marty Shottenheimer firing was the worst decision made by Snyder since his acquisition of the team. look what he did with the Chargers! Wouldn't LT have looked good in B&G for 9 years? I know, we can't say he would be here, but I thoroughly believe Marty gave us our closest chance at a SB since Gibbs I!

As for fs62's assertion that Marty couldn't win the big one, Ernest Byner does not fumble that ball they go to the SB that year!

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

but then if he doesnt they dont take Mike Oliphant in trade and we dont get the Bynerman!

 

[fansince62]

See, I dont buy that comparison at all for one thing the patsies that year were dominant, we were far from the only team that got whupped. we were suffereing a serious bunch of injuries and they just beat up on us, however they scored what they scored without calling the dogs off (as I believe it should be) now the fecals game was a different animal, we looked unprepared after coming off a bye week, we didnt do anything on either side of the ball and our defence looked about as pathetic a defence as I have ever seen. they ran, passed, qb keeper'd lol and basically had their way with us without even buying us dinner. if it was strictly a talent thing , we wouldnt have beaten them previously, this boiled down to preparation, coaching and adjustments, they simply outcoached, outadjusted and outplayed us.

not the point I was making. my point is that the Pats won precisely because there was a wide talent gulf. I'm asking whether the blow out to the Iggles is traceable to a similarly daunting talent gap. I don't think so, but wanted others to weigh in.

 

[Om]

I don't think the talent gap is all that wide other than in speed at the offensive skill positions. WR, RB and most obviously, QB.

Reid stumbled into magic when the Eagles were the only team in the NFL willing to take on Vick's baggage last year. And no one, not even Eagle ownership, had the slightest clue Vick would play the way he has so far this year. Vick IS playing at a level no one has ever seen from an NFL QB--talking overall impact on the game here with his run and pass threat combination.

Add to that the speed they have at WR in Macklin and Jackson, and the speed in the backfield with McCoy, and it's the perfect storm for opposing defenses.

And with an offense playing that well, the defense can be more aggressive and take more chances.

The Eagles are riding the same Vick wave Virginia Tech and Atlanta have both ridden before. And in their case they have just the right speed components to put around him to keep defenses from focusing solely on Vick like they did in college and did to a lesser but still tangible degree in Atlanta.

Personally, I don't think the Eagles can sustain the wave. NFL defensive coordinators are too good to allow him to run rampant very long. They won't stop him, but they'll slow him. They'll decide which support-player speed options to focus on taking away from him as best they can, and study his comfort zones and start compensating to make those less desirable as well.

He'll come back to earth.

He'll also get nicked again ... one thing about Mike Vick, he's got as much athletic arrogance (a good thing up to a point) as any player I've seen in the NFL. That has a downside--as defenses start forcing him to do more himself with his legs, he'll get himself into situations where his body will pay the price for his fearlessness.

Eagle fans may be thinking they're about to embark on an historic run of titles and title contention. Me, I'm thinking we're watching a shooting star. The question is where to set the over/under on how long he shines.

 

[fansince62]

But insightful to say the least.

I would have to say the Marty Shottenheimer firing was the worst decision made by Snyder since his acquisition of the team. look what he did with the Chargers! Wouldn't LT have looked good in B&G for 9 years? I know, we can't say he would be here, but I thoroughly believe Marty gave us our closest chance at a SB since Gibbs I!

As for fs62's assertion that Marty couldn't win the big one, Ernest Byner does not fumble that ball they go to the SB that year!

coulda, woulda, shoulda!!!

look at those SD teams. great regular season records...but never the big dance. Marty could build a very solid team....just not a championship team.

 

[fansince62]

I don't think the talent gap is all that wide other than in speed at the offensive skill positions. WR, RB and most obviously, QB.

Reid stumbled into magic when the Eagles were the only team in the NFL willing to take on Vick's baggage last year. And no one, not even Eagle ownership, had the slightest clue Vick would play the way he has so far this year. Vick IS playing at a level no one has ever seen from an NFL QB--talking overall impact on the game here with his run and pass threat combination.

Add to that the speed they have at WR in Macklin and Jackson, and the speed in the backfield with McCoy, and it's the perfect storm for opposing defenses.

And with an offense playing that well, the defense can be more aggressive and take more chances.

The Eagles are riding the same Vick wave Virginia Tech and Atlanta have both ridden before. And in their case they have just the right speed components to put around him to keep defenses from focusing solely on Vick like they did in college and did to a lesser but still tangible degree in Atlanta.

Personally, I don't think the Eagles can sustain the wave. NFL defensive coordinators are too good to allow him to run rampant very long. They won't stop him, but they'll slow him. They'll decide which support-player speed options to focus on taking away from him as best they can, and study his comfort zones and start compensating to make those less desirable as well.

He'll come back to earth.

He'll also get nicked again ... one thing about Mike Vick, he's got as much athletic arrogance (a good thing up to a point) as any player I've seen in the NFL. That has a downside--as defenses start forcing him to do more himself with his legs, he'll get himself into situations where his body will pay the price for his fearlessness.

Eagle fans may be thinking they're about to embark on an historic run of titles and title contention. Me, I'm thinking we're watching a shooting star. The question is where to set the over/under on how long he shines.

acknowledging these good points....the thing that grabs my shorts is that the Iggles basically blew themselves up last off-season. their O-line isn't all that great and their secondary/LB core has real holes. even in a badly coached game.....we should have lost by a score in the neighborhood of 38-21. but that game? something was wrong beyond Vick and poor planning/adjustment. some limitation in our player roster was exploitable beyond the norm. can't express the thought well - the idea is that given some level of overall competitive talent...you may suffer a bad game or two....but you never look like a Pop Warner team with zero talent (and that's what that game looked like...at least the first 15 mins I watched before turning off the boob tube).

 

[Om]

As to 59-28, we're agreed something was off in Redskinsland to start that game. No idea what--the talent level as mentioned was obviously a factor, but there was more. The Eagles and Redskins started that game at different speeds from coaching to the last player on special teams.

And the frustrating thing is, we'll never know what the reason for that was. Was it something that sparked the Eagles? We remember 36-0 to the Giants after Mara passed ... sometimes the other team is just juiced beyond recognition.

Was it something that dragged down the Redskins? Did word come down someone's child got diagnosed with leukemia just before the team took the field?

Was it some combination of things in both locker rooms?

Some people scoff at the notion that kind of thing should affect performance on the field to the degree we saw early in the Eagles game. I scoff at the notion that in a leage where the talent level IS so close something like that CAN'T be the difference between teams looking as different as the Eagles and Redskins did in the first half of that "game."

Once the ball gets rolling--regardless of the cause--it's hard to stop.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Om, thats a great point, momentum really is underplayed in a league where honestly the talent levels are pretty close. its not like in college where every team has 2-3 very good players in the NFL talent has been distilled until everything affects games. you know something is up when guys who dominated in college get to the NFL and become bench warmers. aqnd something must be up for games to be so wildly erratic in scores. the browns beat the pats convincingly but nobody here would say they are the better team.