Morris time. For several reasons.

Elephant said:

Call it a gotcha game all you want, but when you make suggestions, flat out claims that are incorrect, misrepresent what has ben said, and continue to bang a drum that all too many are exhausted discussing, I'm gonna step up. Welcome to the board, but don't think you get a pass for false claims and misrepresenting others.

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Congratulations... You pulled out an instance where we played a team that was more undisciplined than we were and that proves your point? You think we can beat NFL teams being undisciplined by abandoning the running game because we beat Tampa... You provided a fact that you feel overturns a generally accepted truth... Now, if I say "We're not going to defeat an NFL team if we abandon the run, and lack discipline..." Is that a statement of fact, or a statement of belief (a generally accepted truth)? In that light, are you going to allow people to make general statements of truth or are you going to nitpick and troll the board? Sitting here sniping people's arguments is just trolling the board. If you have evidence (statistical preferred) that proves your point, then I'll listen to that.

Anyway, I don't remember mentioning Cousins much in this thread (I've discussed that enough in the KC dev thread)... I've stated repeatedly how I feel about Gruden's job as HC of this team. Much of what I've discussed in this thread is about Gruden making decisions that impact the identity of the team and deviating from the plan that McCloughan, Gruden, McVay & Callahan reportedly agreed on at the beginning of the year. That's why you fire a HC.

I know you hate Robert, and you feel Cousins is the guy. I don't really have a problem with people's devotion to one QB or the other. However, if I find stats or analysis that either supports my analysis or makes me change my mind, I'll share it. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

Oh, I don't mind being challenged. I'm not afraid of criticism. I'll admit if I say something incorrect (and I've done that before). I don't really feel I need to correct my statement from earlier... I don't think it was wrong. We won't beat NFL teams if we abandon the run and become undisciplined... Teams may lose to us though.

Boone said:

Miami has gotten blown out 2 weeks in a row. That's how it's working out of late. That's your example? They got their ass kicked by the Patriots worse than we did Bob. And then got beat almost as badly by the Bills. And they currently are in last place in the AFC East.

Pointing to a couple of games when an interim coach comes in and fires up a bad team to a couple wins as some meaningful event is no more valid than pointing to a 2nd year head coach who inherited a mess, is still working with talent gaps in a number of spots, and has had injury after injury cripple his team in year two and calling him a failure.

Sorry - I'm not going to roll around in misery, join the dire prediction train, nor thrash the coaching staff. If you guys want to continue to blast the 3 of us who aren't on suicide watch every time we argue for patience, that's your preogative.

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I'm not asking anyone to roll around in misery. I'm sure not. And I'm not blasting anyone either. And I said a heck of a lot more in that post than just this little bit about Campbell in Miami. Have they gotten blown out twice in two weeks now? Yeah, they have. On the road to divisional rivals. Yeah, NE beat them worse than they beat us. NE sees them twice a season which is a far cry from once every 4 years like they do us.

What I am is tired of "system" guys and watching talent go under utilized. How many players have we drafted or brought in as Free Agents over the years that the coaches won't use or try to misuse because they don't fit the "system"?

Albert Haynesworth - not a NT but Shanahan wanted to play a 3-4. Had to play a 3-4. Granted, the player was also a mess and contributed but the meltdown started with Shanahan.
Brian Orakpo - not an OLB but again, Shanahan wanted to play a 3-4. I still think Rak looked better his rookie year as a RDE than in any year since as an OLB.
Barry Cofield - not a true NT but the staff was married to a 3-4. In this case the player did everything he could that was asked of him but he just wasn't a good fit for the position.
Robert Griffin III - enough said
Alfred Morris - ditto (although it is fair to note that his numbers have declined every year)
Darrell Young - hardly used at all because Gruden doesn't use FB's.

Is Gruden taking the brunt of my anger over this crap now? Yeah, he is. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not.

Doesn't change the fact that good coaches find a way to get the best 11 on the field, system be damned. They don't piss and moan about who is missing due to injury (sorry, this is part of life in the NFL today. Period) and they don't griped about not having the right type of player for their system.

The simple fact is this...these are the 53 players Gruden and team have this season to try to win games with. Use them to the best of their abilities. Put the players in positions to be their best. When I start seeing that happen on a regular basis I'll get off Jay's back but until that he is just another hack with a system, a one trick pony, not a coach.

Neophyte said:

I'm not asking anyone to roll around in misery. I'm sure not. And I'm not blasting anyone either. And I said a heck of a lot more in that post than just this little bit about Campbell in Miami. Have they gotten blown out twice in two weeks now? Yeah, they have. On the road to divisional rivals. Yeah, NE beat them worse than they beat us. NE sees them twice a season which is a far cry from once every 4 years like they do us.

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The only reason I honed in on that part as I think it illustrates that coaching success is not 'as simple' as a lot of folks make it out to be - there are a ton of factors that contribute to success or failure. It's dangerous to point to Miami's interim HC's early success and say 'See! See what difference the HC makes!' based on a stretch of games. That's not to equate 4 games of an interim HC to the season and a half Gruden has had, but a season and a half is still a pretty limited sample size especially given all of the changes that occurred after year 1. People crucify Gruden for keeping Haslett when the fact is he may not have been given a choice.

What I am is tired of "system" guys and watching talent go under utilized. How many players have we drafted or brought in as Free Agents over the years that the coaches won't use or try to misuse because they don't fit the "system"?

Albert Haynesworth - not a NT but Shanahan wanted to play a 3-4. Had to play a 3-4. Granted, the player was also a mess and contributed but the meltdown started with Shanahan.
Brian Orakpo - not an OLB but again, Shanahan wanted to play a 3-4. I still think Rak looked better his rookie year as a RDE than in any year since as an OLB.
Barry Cofield - not a true NT but the staff was married to a 3-4. In this case the player did everything he could that was asked of him but he just wasn't a good fit for the position.
Robert Griffin III - enough said
Alfred Morris - ditto (although it is fair to note that his numbers have declined every year)
Darrell Young - hardly used at all because Gruden doesn't use FB's.

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I understand and agree on a lot of that. I think Griffin is a special case though - because what he does well is so different from traditional QBing. What he does well is different from what 90% of HCs want on offense, not just Gruden. And we're seeing that the read-option heavy offenses are struggling mightily now, even with guys like Russell Wilson running them. If anything, not wanting to 'adjust his offense' to Griffin looks like a pretty wise move to me right now, not a legitimate criticism of Gruden. And the battle cry that Gruden was hired to 'fix Griffin' though oft-repeated may not even be factual. I think it's quite possible that he was asked to see if he could make it work with Griffin but if not, it was his call as to what direction to go in. Any respectable HC should have the authority to decide who is under center - period. I don't get those that would argue that - and I don't think any of the 'we ruined Griffin' or 'we could succeed if we used him *correctly*' stuff really is relevant. Coaches win or get fired in large degree based on how well the QB plays. If Gruden thought Griffin was incapable of winning consistently no one should begrudge him moving on.

Is Gruden taking the brunt of my anger over this crap now? Yeah, he is. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not.

Doesn't change the fact that good coaches find a way to get the best 11 on the field, system be damned. They don't piss and moan about who is missing due to injury (sorry, this is part of life in the NFL today. Period) and they don't griped about not having the right type of player for their system.

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All of that is unfair imho. Gruden hasn't griped or made excuses, at least not that I've heard. 'Injuries are part of life in the NFL today' is of course true - but come on Bob - there are degrees. How many injuries a team has and at what spots is pretty impactful. I don't disagree that ultimately you have to figure out how to overcome them, but that doesn't make every team's situation equal. I believe the Skins are noticeably improved in a number of areas this year - and I think if we had not lost so many key players the improvements would be even more noticeable. That's just my opinion. But factors like key injuries are not 'excuses' - you say you're tired, I'm really tired of hearing that called an 'excuse'. It's essentially saying 'the talent of the players you field doesn't matter - you should win regardless'.

The simple fact is this...these are the 53 players Gruden and team have this season to try to win games with. Use them to the best of their abilities. Put the players in positions to be their best. When I start seeing that happen on a regular basis I'll get off Jay's back but until that he is just another hack with a system, a one trick pony, not a coach.

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I agree with you Bob. That's his job no matter who's available and he deserves to be judged based on results. I absolutely get that and agree. I am only quibbling regarding the idea that we can determine he's a failure after a season and a half of significant change, that McCloughan is unquestionably going to fire him and deservedly so, and that he's a 'hack'. I suspect that, whether he's successful ultimately or not, he's working his ass off every way he knows how to get this team back on track. I don't think there's any sign that his players, fellow coaches, or even the GM believe as you do - but maybe I'll be proven wrong.

Smoot Point said:

Congratulations... You pulled out an instance where we played a team that was more undisciplined than we were and that proves your point? You think we can beat NFL teams being undisciplined by abandoning the running game because we beat Tampa... You provided a fact that you feel overturns a generally accepted truth... Now, if I say "We're not going to defeat an NFL team if we abandon the run, and lack discipline..." Is that a statement of fact, or a statement of belief (a generally accepted truth)? In that light, are you going to allow people to make general statements of truth or are you going to nitpick and troll the board? Sitting here sniping people's arguments is just trolling the board. If you have evidence (statistical preferred) that proves your point, then I'll listen to that.

Anyway, I don't remember mentioning Cousins much in this thread (I've discussed that enough in the KC dev thread)... I've stated repeatedly how I feel about Gruden's job as HC of this team. Much of what I've discussed in this thread is about Gruden making decisions that impact the identity of the team and deviating from the plan that McCloughan, Gruden, McVay & Callahan reportedly agreed on at the beginning of the year. That's why you fire a HC.

I know you hate Robert, and you feel Cousins is the guy. I don't really have a problem with people's devotion to one QB or the other. However, if I find stats or analysis that either supports my analysis or makes me change my mind, I'll share it. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

Oh, I don't mind being challenged. I'm not afraid of criticism. I'll admit if I say something incorrect (and I've done that before). I don't really feel I need to correct my statement from earlier... I don't think it was wrong. We won't beat NFL teams if we abandon the run and become undisciplined... Teams may lose to us though.

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See, once again you're posting style is painting someone into a corner that meets your narrative. I don't care who the QB of our team is as long as he performs. I just want to win. I don't hate anyone or anything except the Dallas Cowturds.

You continue to write the story for others that best fits your argument and that is simply disingenuous at best...more aptly dishonest.

We disagree on the QB, that's ok...many do. I am more inclined to believe your side on Gruden, I simply think he needs at least the end of this season, and perhaps next if we are respectable in the next 6 games, you're already convinced. On the other hand, if management does move on...I'm ok with it.

But don't paint me with your brush, be honest about what I say...twice now you haven't been. Post info that is accurate, I have seen you post misleading posts a couple times now. I would say tone it down, but I am as snarky as the rest so have at it. Just know, I will call you out when you're wrong, I will call you out when you make up stuff about me, especially.

Everyone needs to tone it down. The snark isn't okay and you guys better heed the advice. Staff can disagree and we're still friends - and all here are able to do it. Do it.


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Boone said:

Everyone needs to tone it down. The snark isn't okay and you guys better heed the advice. Staff can disagree and we're still friends - and all here are able to do it. Do it.


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This! Totally.

And if you have been reading this thread you know that even the owners don't see eye to eye but we are still getting along. Always.

Boone said:

Everyone needs to tone it down. The snark isn't okay and you guys better heed the advice. Staff can disagree and we're still friends - and all here are able to do it. Do it.


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......

3-5 might not sound like much of an improvement, but there were many people inside the NFL and the media that thought the Redskins were set to win 3 games in 16 games, not 8.

You might as well give Gruden a pass last week, no coach in NFL history was going to get this roster to beat the Patriots in New England.

The way I look at it so far the Redskins were competitive and could have won or lost most of their games this season outside of the Pats and the Jets.

The Redskins were facing the Jets at the time they had just lost their all their corners to various injuries and had changes on the OL.

I haven't seen any signs the players have given up and slow-rolled any of their performances. Nobody has quit on the team.

When I look around the league are there coaches that could have the Redskins at 4-4 or even 5-3 instead of 3-5 after 8 games?

Maybe, if all of the injuries didn't hit at the same time at certain key positions and we were a bit more aggressive in throwing the ball on first down instead of being more predictable with run-pass-pass drives.

But until the talent changes significantly, and that means having a healthy Ryan Kerrigan (knee and hand injuries), a legitimate starting NFL center and set of inside linebackers and safeties, and more experience out of a host of younger guys getting their feet wet in the NFL (Breeland, Scherff, Crowder, Smith, Moses, Reed, Jarrett, Long, etc.), this team is going to be challenged to be a consistent performer week to week.

I know that I earlier said give more than 15 carries to Morris and more than 12 carries to Jones... I was wrong, just give more than 25 carries to Morris and let Matt Jones be your 3rd down back... Maybe hand the ball to Thompson a few times.

Matt Jones has 104 touches... and 4 lost fumbles.

Elephant said:

You continue to write the story for others that best fits your argument and that is simply disingenuous at best...more aptly dishonest.

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I wasn't dishonest... I think most people here didn't have much a problem with what I said. I'll say it again: If we abandon the run, and show a lack of discipline, we don't have a shot against any NFL team.

The Tampa Bay game was an extreme exception to the rule. Many would qualify that game as a game that Tampa Bay lost as much or more than a game the Redskins won. Technically, we won the game, but what is there really to disagree about?

As for the rest of your post, I'm not really sure that I understand. However, if you want to take that to private messages, I'm sure we can thrash out our disagreement amicably.

Cheers,

Smoot Point

Om and I actually discussed this yesterday but in a game like yesterday's I'm not sure continuing to try and run makes any sense. Until we have the talent and scheme that allows us to do whatever we want on offense effectively I think there are times where we need to do what we CAN do and set aside what we should be able and want to be able to do. Our best chance yesterday was to try and hit RBs with short passes and screens but the Panthers were creating so much havoc with Kirk we couldn't even get those kinds of plays off. Had we been able to protect Kirk it might've been smarter to pass 60 times vs slamming our RBs into a brick wall and hoping at some point the result was going to improve.


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Boone said:

Om and I actually discussed this yesterday but in a game like yesterday's I'm not sure continuing to try and run makes any sense. Until we have the talent and scheme that allows us to do whatever we want on offense effectively I think there are times where we need to do what we CAN do and set aside what we should be able and want to be able to do. Our best chance yesterday was to try and hit RBs with short passes and screens but the Panthers were creating so much havoc with Kirk we couldn't even get those kinds of plays off. Had we been able to protect Kirk it might've been smarter to pass 60 times vs slamming our RBs into a brick wall and hoping at some point the result was going to improve.


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Especially since they couldn't hold onto the ball.

There are ways to open things up in the running game. If there was a weakness in the Carolina defense, it was the running game coming into this one. Alfred getting hurt didn't help, but you really should be able to use Chris Thompson and Matt Jones in a variety of ways that might contribute to opening up the running game. Heck, why not some reverses to Desean or Jamison? Cousins on the read option got them 20-30 yards if the phantom hold wasn't called on Reed... Why go away from that? The game plan was milquetoast and they didn't try to switch things up to get the run game going, and just gave up on it. They were clearly intimidated by Carolina from the beginning... They got 2 big plays (one on offense, and one on special teams) and they collectively gave up on the game when a few things didn't go their way.