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Kirk Cousins Development Tracker

It was thrown 15 yards max...the yac doesn't count as his pass.

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Anyways...I'm done. I'm logging off again. :)

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It most definitely does count. Even an eight yard hitch that a corner misses for a seventy-three yard TD goes to the passer as a seventy-three yard TD pass. No exceptions. Carrier toss went about twenty-two yards, not fifteen. It was perfectly thrown. First play from scrimmage was perfectly in the hands of Garcon. Even Crowder had an easy catch, but took his eye off the ball.

You can still make those catching mistakes and come back to win against a Tampa Bay, but not the best team in football. Minus those drops, Kirk likely has a game of around 280 yards at a minimum.
 
McD5 said:
Smoot, I think you're looking in the wrong direction if you believe Cousins is the problem.

If you watched that game last weekend and came away thinking that Cousins didn't play well, I don't know what to say.

I do like the time you've spent on compiling the stats. That takes effort. I haven't read every page, but did you come across this stat?

Cousins is on pace to throw for 3,908 yards and 20 TDs. No Redskins QB has gone for 3,900 and 20 TDs since Brad Johnson in 1999.

It's not like he sucks...
Click to expand...

Dosn't it also mean he's on pace to have 9 more interceptions ? I mean, if we're going to double down on the first 8 games stats for projected yardage and TD's, I would think that should also include interceptions.

Johnson had 13 interceptions in 99.
 
You going to tell us our wives may have nice personalities but they're fat next Pete? :)

Of course if you extrapolate out you have to include everything. I think the point was that Cousins is producing some offense and moving the ball albeit not at a pace Skins fans are satisfied with. Ultimately it's all about points, not yardage anyway.

Oh - and just for shits and giggles - in 1999 Brad Johnson was sacked 29 times (!). Kirk? 3 so far this year. And Kirk has almost a 10% better completion %. Just sayin'.

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ESPN 980 ‏@ESPNRadio980 · 4h4 hours ago
Mark Schlereth on Kirk Cousins: "I think he has great upside....I look at him as an efficient guy, has an Andy Dalton upside to him."
 
Smoot Point said:
Micks 113,

Thanks for the post... I guess what I'm trying to say is, the only tangible proof we have is the stats. "Eye-tests" are in the eye of the beholder... I offered my own eye-tests also, as you pointed out, but I think it all goes back to the stats supporting the eye-tests. There is nothing wrong with intangible proof, but it always has to be weighed against tangible proof.

***Lots of stats and things edited out to make the post shorter!**

Here are the options:

1) He's limited by Coach & Scheme
2) He's limited by opponents and how they are playing him based on perceived weaknesses
3) He's limited by his own decisions, taking fewer chances intentionally.

Above is the tangible evidence...
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Agree on the Eye Test theory. As I said, just the way I feel about it and I'm the beholder on that one. :)
To me this year has just seemed much much more positive than before. Oddly maybe even more than 2012 if that makes sense.

I always loved having RGIII and Morris powering that run to the playoffs, but I never really trusted ShanaClan and I always kinda felt like that was folls gold to some degree. The Gibbs era seemed all about hard work and getting things right. 2012 ever felt like we got things right. Just got lucky.

This year I finally feel like we've put the train back on the track and are stoking the boiler in the right way now. Maybe I'm delusional but I just feel in a good place about the Skins right now. :D

As to the coaching etc... I'm not a huge Gruden fan to be honest, but boy have we had worse regimes here. My issue here is that I don't see any real alternatives. Washington is not an attractive destination for good coaches. We have a toxic atmosphere, many fans are impatient and expect glory years, we have an owner who can't help but interfere, the press for the Skins is brutal and will latch onto ANY controversy and we simply don't have the talent pool to make it attractive on that front either.

So if we cut Gruden then who do we get? Another rookie or journeyman headcoach?

Same with Cousins at QB. What are our other options?

All the elite QB's aren't moving teams which leaves us drafting and hoping they work out.

I don't think Cousins and Gruden are long term solutions at this point unless they suddenly show something spectacular. But I also feel like we've had way worse people at both spots. Statistics in football are a flawed criteria as they really don't show anything other than mathematical answers to questions with no context. YEs Cousins numbers are different this year to last year, but those percentages etc don't take into account injuries, weather, home or away, who dropped balls, strength of schedule etc etc. There are so many factors that go into winning or losing a game, or even performing well.

Personally I think McCloughan has a long term plan. (OK, maybe it's more that I'd like to believe that! LOL)

I'd expect him to keep Gruden and Cousins in situ at the moment. Both aren't setting the world alight, but neither I feel are disasters either. Both are relatively new at their positions and I think there is time there to watch them and evaluate them. In the meantime address the shortcomings in personnel in the draft and FA, but not make panic moves. I think they'll stay the course through 2016 with Gruden and Cousins and see how the team fares with any new personnel brough in this coming offseason. If neither coach nor QB take a step forward next year I think they're both gone in 2017 depending on options. By that time I'd hope that McCloughan has created a stable organisational structure with some decent talent to attract a top tier coach.

Nobody expected the post season this year and with all the injuries we've had across the board, I think that unless Gruden or Cousins really drops the ball over the next 7 games then I think they've both assured themselves a place for next year. I'm not totally unhappy with that as I really don't see an attractive alternative presenting itself.
 
Boone said:
You going to tell us our wives may have nice personalities but they're fat next Pete? :)

Of course if you extrapolate out you have to include everything. I think the point was that Cousins is producing some offense and moving the ball albeit not at a pace Skins fans are satisfied with. Ultimately it's all about points, not yardage anyway.

Oh - and just for shits and giggles - in 1999 Brad Johnson was sacked 29 times (!). Kirk? 3 so far this year. And Kirk has almost a 10% better completion %. Just sayin'.

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Click to expand...

LOL.... Just adding what was conveniently left out being it's a stat that has a huge impact on the outcome of games. As for fat wives.... I aint goin there.
 
Smoot Point said:
Micks 113,

Thanks for the post... I guess what I'm trying to say is, the only tangible proof we have is the stats. "Eye-tests" are in the eye of the beholder... I offered my own eye-tests also, as you pointed out, but I think it all goes back to the stats supporting the eye-tests. There is nothing wrong with intangible proof, but it always has to be weighed against tangible proof.

People like Cousins and will look for evidence that supports their theory that Cousins has improved. People will hate Cousins and look for evidence that supports their theory that he has regressed (or not improved). I came to the conclusion that he hasn't improved by first looking at the statistics. However, I confess that I have a negative opinion of Jay Gruden and thought he should've been fired after last season, and I became increasingly affirmed in this opinion after the hiring of Joe Barry and subsequent decisions (including the handling of RGIII & the QBs). Nothing has happened that has made me alter this opinion, and my opinion may color some of my comments (like when I see the same poor commitment to the running game for 4-5 weeks in a row). Maybe, I'm just looking for stats that support the theory he hasn't improved by pulling mostly negative statistics because I want to prove the Jay Gruden hasn't developed any of our QBs...

However, I want to say that the stats I'm pulling are pretty much the standard statistics that you would pull out when evaluating any QB. Looking at the 32 QBs who have 100 or more attempts (disqualifies Tony Romo), here is where Cousins ranks by stat:

Completion%: 9th
Att/G: 9th
Yards: 16th
YPA: 31st
YPG: 22nd
TD: 24th
INT: 27th
1st Downs: 7th
1st%: 15th
Long: 32nd
20+: 31st
40+: 31st
Sacks: 4th
QBR: 24th

Cousins played fewer games in 2014, but so have a few of the other QBs in the league (Big Ben, Mariota, etc)... However, let's see where he would've ranked using same stats from 2014 against the same QBs of 2015 (minus Cousins):

Completion%: 23rd (down in 2014) - He's throwing shorter passes, taking fewer chances. Not a big deal, if he has higher numbers in other places.
Att/G: 18th (down in 2014) - He's throwing more passes, probably due to our poor running game.
Yards: 24th (down in 2014) - This is an aggregate over 7 games, and most of the league has played 8... so this isn't a useful stat.
YPA: 5th (up in 2014) - His performance in YPA would be top 5 in the league.
YPG: 7th (up in 2014) - Again, YPG would be in top 10 in the league (this includes a game he was benched in 2nd half)
TD: 24th (same in 2014) - Fewer games in 2014, so technically this is down in 2015....
INT: 27th (same in 2014) - Fewer games in 2014, so technically this is up in 2015...
1st Downs: 27th (down in 2014) - This is an aggregate, so not important.
1st%: 9th (up in 2014) - Again, he's top 10 here if we're talking his 2014 performance.
Long: 2nd (up in 2014) - 1 big play doesn't really matter either year, but his long this year is like 43 yards.
20+: 13th (up in 2014) - This is an aggregate, but it's based on 7 games. Way better in 2014...
40+: 3rd (up in 2014) - This is an aggregate, but it's based on 7 games. Way better in 2014...
Sacks: 4th (up in 2014) - Fewer games in 2014, so technically this is up in 2015...
QB Rating (not ESPN): 20th (up in 2014) - QB Rating... Not really a big difference, but he was better in 2014l.

OK, Interceptions/Attempt are a bit better... Sacks are a bit better (but we have a better OL)... Completion percentage is better in 2015... Across the board, he is nowhere near his stats in 2014. Has he improved, or is he simply a neutered quarterback?

Here are the options:

1) He's limited by Coach & Scheme
2) He's limited by opponents and how they are playing him based on perceived weaknesses
3) He's limited by his own decisions, taking fewer chances intentionally.

Above is the tangible evidence...
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

My thought are on where we diverge. Tangible stats are relevant. What I look for is the intangibles. You know, is the QB clutch when the game is on the line. 4th quarter comeback victories. Execution under pressure. Presence in the pocket. Decision making reading secondaries. Decision making on audibles. Playing while hurt. The list goes on and on. The intangibles is what separates the good ones from the great ones.

Where then is Kirk vis a vis the intangibles? Well, he's got the upside. Compared to say, Griffin, who relied on athleticism primarily. Give me the QB that has his head in the game and plays smart. Those are the Montana's and the Mannings, Brady's etc on and on. Kirk is nowhere in their league of course, but he does play heads up ball.

We don't measure intangibles, but we know one when we see one. Eye test.

By the way as I was typing pocket presence I happened to look it up in Webster's. Presence-A person's bearing, personality, etc. characterized by poise, confidence, etc. often specif. that of a performer before an audience.

This may be whatever is in the eye of the beholder, but my eyes tell me Kirk has improved and shows leadership.
 
Couple of days ago I actually went back to look at the Griff tracker thread and re read 'most of it'. Defenders of the Griff vs observers of the Kirk were pretty much aligned the same way as the current commentary.

One observation struck home with me, the dropped bomb Griff to Garcon and how some decided it was cause for the rest of Griff's less than stellar performance for the rest of the few snaps he got.... losing confidence, tainting his stats, getting killed by poor line play and the like.

On the other hand the steady and 'professional' look to Kirk's game during the pre season was always against 'the scrubs', not real competition.

Kirk looks pretty much the same if not better in 'real time' as he did playing those scrubs and he appears to have at least shaken off those demons of confidence everyone was concerned with. He's not getting killed by our line play, his INT's are still there but the more recent ones can be tagged with 'excuses' and those dropped passes certainly did not affect his performance.

General consensus early on was that Kirk at least gave the team a chance to be competitive and offered the chance to evaluate those around him by having decent QB play. He was named the starter not the savior.
 
I think we could win a lot of games with Kirk Cousins if he had the intangibles mentioned with 2014 stats (minus INTs). I think he'd be a top 10-15 quarterback in the NFL with those numbers, and the stats actually back that up.
 
McD5 said:
ESPN 980 ‏@ESPNRadio980 · 4h4 hours ago
Mark Schlereth on Kirk Cousins: "I think he has great upside....I look at him as an efficient guy, has an Andy Dalton upside to him."
Click to expand...

OK, let's take a look at what Greg Cosell of NFL Films says of Kirk Cousins in 2012:
At Michigan State, Cousins played in an offense that featured NFL route combinations and progression reads. He operated effectively both under center and in the shotgun. At his best, Cousins was a timing and anticipation passer who was quick and decisive with his reads. He was a plant-and-throw quarterback, most effective when he could hit his back foot and deliver the ball on time, in rhythm. He was efficient in the play-action pass game, with the often overlooked ability to get his head around quickly after he turned his back to the defense. As a corollary, he executed well the boot-action game, showing accuracy on the move.
Extensive tape study also illustrated some significant concerns. Immediately evident was his inability to drive the ball at the intermediate and deeper levels. He was a touch passer without much snap to his throws. That must be accompanied by outstanding decision making and precise ball location. Cousins was not as consistent as he needs to be in both areas given his arm-strength limitations. He also needed functional space in the pocket to be efficient. He had a tendency to drift backward in response to pressure. Pocket movement is certainly an attribute he must work on in his transition to the NFL. His struggles in a “muddied” pocket, in the eye of the storm, must be cleaned up for him to become a quality starter.
For Cousins to be successful, he must be managed and manipulated by the schematics of the passing game and the play calling. At this point, and that’s the critical caveat, he’s primarily a pocket passer with neither great size nor the overall skills of a pocket passer. The specific concepts of the pass game and how he’s coached will be the determining factors in his development.
Click to expand...

Kirk Cousins came into the league as a more NFL-ready prospect. What many of you are seeing are skills he developed before he became an NFL quarterback. The strengths you mentioned, we seen there in 2012 by Greg Cosell and the weaknesses are still pretty much there. Let's look at what Greg Cosell thinks of Cousins & our offense in 2015 (just before the Eagles game, after loss to NYG):

Ten Observations Of Washington's Offense

1. Quarterback Kirk Cousins has a bad tendency to drift back, and try to escape from the pocket out the back when he feels pressure or when his internal clock goes off. That’s a problem!
2. Cousins was not a precise ball location passer in this game. He will have to be to become a quality NFL starter since he has some throwing limitations due to arm strength.
3. Cousins does have deceptive movement skills to make plays outside of structure on occasion. Want proof? Look at the 20-yard completion to tight end Jordan Reed and the 15-yard pass to wide receiver Jamison Crowder in the second quarter as good examples.
4. Giants cornerback Prince Amukamara's first quarter interception was clearly the result of film study. Washington's staple through two weeks had been bang play-action off quick five-step drops with the inside slant throw. From 10 yards off coverage, Amukamara took a hard inside technique reading both Cousins and wide receiver Pierre Garcon. Amukamara read the route and jumped the throw before Cousins released the ball. It was a pre-determined throw by Cousins.
5. The 18-yard completion to wide receiver Andre Roberts on third-and-1 in the second quarter was an excellent route concept to attack boundary lock Cover 3 (or man outside and Cover 3 inside). Washington lined up in a 3x1 set. As the isolated receiver, Garcon immediately ran the underneath drag to remove the locked man-to-man corner. Roberts, the slot corner from the trips side, came on the crosser. The underneath defender to the single receiver side (linebacker Devon Kennard) does not recognize that route from the other side of the formation and the single-high safety cannot react until the ball is thrown. This was a well-designed route concept to break down the coverage.
6. Washington showed a 3x1 set out of 11 personnel with tight end Jordan Reed as the isolated receiver to the boundary. The Giants matched up with safety Landon Collins when they played man free. Cousins underthrew an open Reed on go route versus Collins from the Giants' 26-yard line in the second quarter. Reed easily beat Collins off the line of scrimmage for what should have been a touchdown.
7. One thing Reed has shown consistently through three games is he can beat linebackers in man coverage. He beat Giants linebacker Jonathan Casillas for a 15-yard gain in the fourth quarter.
8. The Giants showed double coverage on Reed in the fourth quarter with Collins and linebacker Uani Unga. It was part of a man free concept behind a four-man rush. Cousins wanted to go to Reed but the double took it away and the inside pressure forced a hurried incompletion.
9. Left guard was a problem for Washington all game. Starter Shawn Lauvao suffered an ankle injury in the first half and was placed on Injured Reserve.
10. Washington's running backs overall did a good job in pass protection. Chris Thompson and rookie Matt Jones stood out. The Giants did get Thompson with a double A-gap blitz in the fourth quarter when he whiffed on a blitzing Casillas for an 11-yard sack.
Click to expand...

Some positives & negatives above... Overall, he has some limitations to his game and isn't yet considered a quality NFL starter. However, that doesn't mean the door isn't open for him.
 
I suspect we'll see a big weekend out of Kirk against New Orleans. It should be a shootout. 300 yards plus, 3 TDs.
 
Good grief guys: "waaaambulance"??? "bitch"??? Are you kidding me?

Here's the deal:
GSF: Stop antagonizing Mike!
Elephant: Stop "liking" posts that are clearly antagonistic toward Mike!
Mike: Stop being so antagonized!

This behavior is ridiculous and embarrassing, guys. You're grown men! I understand most of us, including moderators, are frustrated with this season. That being said, it is no excuse to begin picking at each other like little children with petty posts. I may not post much here (primarily because I'm super frustrated), but I do read pretty much everything and have seen the level of animosity and pettiness in posts between a few certain posters increase as our season limps along. ENOUGH.

GUYS, behavior like this dumbs down this site and is completely ANTI the vision that the owners had for this site when they launched it. I realize we are ALL frustrated, but if you can't do anything else, please show some RESPECT to the owners of this site by respecting their vision for this place; if you can only post something snarky and infantile instead of something constructive, intelligent and meaningful to the conversation, please don't post.
 
McD5 said:
I suspect we'll see a big weekend out of Kirk against New Orleans. It should be a shootout. 300 yards plus, 3 TDs.
Click to expand...

that's the plan. A coach cannot ignore the weakness in the opponents secondary. You must attack it and through the air.

Not to say our run game is abandoned. Just that it no longer is the preferred plan of attack, at least this week.....ok for the next three weeks.
 
micks113 said:
that's the plan. A coach cannot ignore the weakness in the opponents secondary. You must attack it and through the air.

Not to say our run game is abandoned. Just that it no longer is the preferred plan of attack, at least this week.....ok for the next three weeks.
Click to expand...

Let's talk about the matchup using yards per attempt (which is best way to analyze consistent offensive or defensive performance):

Saints rushing defense ranked 28th vs Redskins rushing offense ranked 27th
Saints passing defense ranked 31st vs Redskins passing offense ranked 32nd

Redskins rushing defense ranked 30th vs Saints rushing offense ranked 25th
Redskins passing defense ranked 23rd vs Saints passing offense ranked 4th

I'd say we have to keep their offense off the field... We've done that this season, dominating ToP, when we have a strong running game.

Saints are a different team away from home and on grass though. I still think we have a 50/50 shot here.
 
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