Kirk Cousins Development Tracker

Ax said:

Well, watching Cybil switch between personalities is a little nerve racking.
Lucky it was just the Browns.

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Oh I had to spend some 'time out' after those moments too but somewhere in there is a unique embryonic personality that combines the best attributes of RoboKirk, Kirkover and BambiKirk to go along with the Captain.

May not happen but if it does it'd be pretty cool.

Yeah, it was the Browns, probably the only team that the 'miracle fumble' call would go against..... except maybe the Skins.

When you look at games from around the league yesterday, there were a few quarterbacks that stood out from Ben Roethlisberger to Matt Ryan to Drew Brees. These are the true franchise quarterbacks (although Ryan has had inconsistency issues in the past).

When they are 'on', they are capable of carrying a team to a win even with a depleted defense and poor performance on special teams.

From the first 4 games of this season, I think it is plain to see that Kirk Cousins is not in that category.

But Kirk is a good quarterback. You can win with him. He is not a Ryan Fitzpatrick that is going to throw 6 picks and flash fool's gold.

But he needs Matt Jones to run for 100 yards. He needs the defense to play well enough to get him some turnovers to work with a short field.

And that's why the team is in a quandary about how much to pay him.

He's not worth $23-$24M a year. But he's worth more than the $12-$14M that a guy like Fitzpatrick came back on.

As painful as it may be I now in the camp that the Redskins likely are going to have to move on in 2017 and go with another signal caller.

Similar situation to Denver. There was no way Elway was going to commit $85M to Brock Osweiler based on 7 starts.

But there was another team, Houston, where the owner on his own decided to shake things up by opening his wallet and spending dollars that would ultimately hurt his team's ability to build under the cap.

I could see the same scenario working itself out here next offseason.

The Redskins need to be prepared to use their #1 pick on a quarterback as Denver ended up doing.

That's one of the reasons I was concerned when the team didn't address the defensive line in the 2016 draft.

We may not be able to focus on that with our top pick in April now.

I looked at the list of starting QBs in the NFL and the list of "Elite" guys is very short 2016 NFL Depth Charts By Position | Ourlads.com. Would I like one? Sure, but there are maybe 5 to 8 guys that fit in that top tier depending on your criteria (I'll reserve judgement on some of the young guys). Kirk's raw numbers would put him in the top 5, but our eyes tell us he's actually in that 2nd tier of QBs who need a little help to be successful. I still think that over time he could work into that first group.

Is Kirk worth busting the cap over? Probably not, but I’m not sure if it’s worth letting him walk away if we can help it either. Is it too much to hope for reason to prevail once negotiations start again?

We’ve been wandering in the wilderness for better than 20 years with no franchise QB. Here is the list of guys we gave more than one year as a starter: Gus Frerotte, Brad Johnson, Mark Brunell, Jason Campbell and RG III. I know I don’t need to tell you that none of these guys has a winning record as a starter for us and all had huge holes in their games. I’d take Kirk over any of these guys, except for maybe a young Brunell.

If we decide to cut bait with Kirk, and like I said I’m not ready to do that, we had better be damn sure we can get someone with a superior skill set. That’s a player we’ve been unable to find. The more I try to find a pattern to what makes an elite QB elite, the more I feel that some of it is just dumb luck. That would be a big risk to take.

I say we overhaul the defense and drive on. Reminds me of a Patton quote: A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect plan executed next week.

All of these quarterbacks were acquired by other General Managers and front offices.

If I am a GM who has confidence in what I do, as John Elway does in Denver, he lets a guy walk rather than overpay him that badly and finds someone else in the draft to start over with.

Of the quarterbacks who won a Super Bowl recently a good number (Brees, Brady, Wilson, Flacco) either were not first round choices or were selected in the middle to back end of the first round.

That's where Aaron Rodgers and Ben Roethlisberger were selected as well.

If we let Cousins walk that is not the end of the road for the franchise.

Well, Scot already stated that he was willing to overpay Kirk (not by a huge margin, of course), to keep him here.
I think that's a smart way to approach Kirk's situation.
But I don't think it was smart to publicize it.
Some things are better kept to one's self.

what the Redskins consider 'slightly overpaying' Cousins is what Cousins' camp thinks is chump-change.

that's the problem. the sides aren't even speaking the same language. if they were $5M apart on a potential deal it would have happened already.

as the Miami Dolphins are finding out with Suh and the Bears learned with Cutler investing too many resources on one player when you need 53 to fill out a roster is not a smart move.

unless you have a player in the building that has already helped you win a championship and you know his true value to the franchise.

that's where the Steelers, Patriots, Packers have the advantage. They know their quarterbacks are true difference makers in a league marked by parity.

whereas Suh and Cutler were fool's gold.

on a big-time contract Cousins is much more likely to be fool's gold than a franchise maker.

although he will probably end up falling somewhere in the middle.

So after four games the sentiment in Skins land is to just let Kirk walk next season,even though none of you have any idea what the next twelve games hold?

I thought Vinny Cerrato was out of football?

BTW....replace him with....who? McCoy?

Another read option Qb?

I guess everybody here has Dak Fever or Wentz Croup when neither Qb has faced much when it comes to a good defense?

"Heck, if they can do it, we can too!"

But we don't even know who they are yet.

Joe Theismann won bupkus without the Hogs or John Riggins.

Can we at least field a decent defense and a settled Oline first and see how Kirk does?

Sheesh..........

Bulldog's Twin said:

All of these quarterbacks were acquired by other General Managers and front offices.

If I am a GM who has confidence in what I do, as John Elway does in Denver, he lets a guy walk rather than overpay him that badly and finds someone else in the draft to start over with.

If we let Cousins walk that is not the end of the road for the franchise.

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I can see that point. I WANT our GM to think he's the smartest football guy in the room. We just need him to be right about it more often than not. Lots of good GMs screw the QB pick up. Jason Campbell might still be our QB if Gibbs was younger and had remained head coach. Instead we got Zorn and the QB carousel spun. So situation and coaching means a lot too. Would Tom Brady have been Tom Brady in Detroit? Probably not. Good organizations seem to be able to find QBs. Poor ones seem to be looking every year.

The Elway situation is a little different than ours, although I see that point too. Osweiler never led that team to the playoffs. Kirk has. Osweiler had another team (with a crazy owner) willing to pay him a lot more than he was going to get in Denver. Had that not come out of nowhere he'd still be a Bronco. I'm not sure what the market would be for Kirk. Being so close to the situation and hearing about him daily doesn't let me get a good read of what the rest of the league thinks about him. We definitely shouldn't get into a bidding war with ourselves.

I agree that letting Kirk walk wouldn't be the end of the world but he isn't the problem (at least not yet). His departure would create a problem we don't have now. It would also cost us a potential impact defensive player if we have to use a first round pick on someone new. If our defense was just middle of the pack good we'd be 3-1 and feeling a lot better about where the season is heading. As is....

It's way too early in the season to render any decision on Cousins.

I agree with BD's Twin. I am not so sure Kirk will be on the roster next year, but I do realize that depends on his performance for the rest of the year. He is not perfect, and probably never will be. It's like he needs to take a few series off every game because he simply doesn't see the field. Yesterday I saw the INT coming before it happened because I saw that Kirk was locked on Crowder and I saw the defender coming the opposite direction. If I can see that sitting about 30 yards away from the action, why can't he in the middle of it? He still locks in on receivers at the wrong time.

I don't expect every series to be like the first 2 yesterday, but with ntohing more than a good drive and a punt would have been enough to refrain from simply turning it over in our end of the field to give them the opportunity to tie it up in 4 short minutes. Kirk cannot seem to shake this problem.

Maybe he's a guy that starts the season slow. Last year it was like game 6 that it clicked. Not saying he should start slow but just maybe if didn't sit out so much in the preseason this year he would've started better - who knows. If he's here next year I'm thinking he's going to spend more time on the field during preseason getting 'warmed up' for the season.

Last two games - Kirk under 3oo yards and the Redskins go 2-0. First two games, 3oo+ each and they go 0-2. Yesterday he throws for under 2oo yds gets 3 TDs. That's as many as he got in the first three games combined with a 1,ooo yards passing. This is what they did last year and were winning - Short passing game, give your receivers a chance to make plays and take your shot's here and there. He's not that accurate throwing deep anyway.

That deep pass that drew an interference call in the first was badly under-thrown, Poyer didn't need to give Jackson a chuck and still would have been in position (probably even a better one) for the Int. If your receiver has to slow down or stop and wait for the ball to get there it's under-thrown. Kirk threw that from the 10 to about the the Cleveland 35. No need to throw it 55 yards in the air if you can't hit the right guy. 1st down so good timing but poor execution.

When the defender is between you and your receiver you over-throw and give your guy a chance to get it and make the defender come through the receiver to make a play. When the defender is behind then you under-throw or a back shoulder fade for the same reason.

Top 5 QB's for yards in the league right now - one team (Atl) is over .5oo; two are .5oo (NYG & Cin) and two are below .5oo (NO & SD).
I'm OK with Kirk throwing 3,2oo yd's a year and the team wins versus him throwing for 5,ooo but the team never breaks .5oo.

McVay in the booth stuff is the current flavor of the week for the media group.

Hey, if it works for the good, why not?

“The playcalls just came in much more sterile and clean into my helmet, just because he’s not down on the sideline,” Cousins said. “He’s in a box, there’s no crowd noise around him, he doesn’t have to yell over the crowd, and so when the plays come in, they just come in very calm and easy, and just more methodical. I say that in a good way.”

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"Calm...methodical"..... sounds good to me

Washington Redskins like Sean McVay calling plays from booth - Washington Redskins Blog- ESPN

I am not anti-Cousins, what I am is anti the idea that Kirk Cousins is the ONLY solution for the Redskins to become a competitive, contending team.

I am sure Scot McCloughan doesn't think his career rises or falls on the performance of Cousins this season alone.

We are conditioned to think any player who shows some ability is a savior.

In Green Bay the Packers traded AWAY Mark Brunell, Matt Hasselbeck, Aaron Brooks to other NFL teams after they sat behind Brett Favre for a time.

So, some organizations find SEVERAL starting caliber quarterbacks over time.

The idea of that here unfortunately is pure heresy.

I don't think I've seen anyone here advance the argument that Kirk Cousins is the only possible QB for this team going forward. What I do think is that some, including myself, see Cousins as the best option we've found in a very long time. Personally, as of today, I'm on board with signing him to a marketplace contract at the end of this year if he continues to play at the level he is right now. If he falls off as the season progresses, I'll assess that then against whatever intel we might have on who might be available to replace him if necessary.

Starting QB's cost a boatload of money and cap space today. It's the market. McCloughan knows that. He's watching Kirk's progression this year even more closely than we are.

Elephant said:

I agree with BD's Twin. I am not so sure Kirk will be on the roster next year, but I do realize that depends on his performance for the rest of the year. He is not perfect, and probably never will be. It's like he needs to take a few series off every game because he simply doesn't see the field. Yesterday I saw the INT coming before it happened because I saw that Kirk was locked on Crowder and I saw the defender coming the opposite direction. If I can see that sitting about 30 yards away from the action, why can't he in the middle of it? He still locks in on receivers at the wrong time.

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Not discounting your view here at all - Kirk's certainly made some head-scratching throws this year at times. But first of all, we act as if none of the top tier QBs throw INTs, or if they do, it's only because a WR runs the wrong route . That's just not the case. Sometimes, QBs either take a risk they shouldn't or they simply don't see a defender. I also think we forget that QBs don't have a fans view of the field. They have big, tall players who are coming right at them often partially or completely obscuring their field of vision. That makes a difference. Cousins has not been a turnover machine this year, not even close to it. I fault him more for missing deep balls by a longshot.


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Kirk Cousins is not a top-tier QB and hopefully won't expect to be paid like one.

However, he is doing fine. He's not perfect, but that's not the problem right now. There is a LOOONG list of things that need fixing before "Kirk should play like the second half of last year" pops up. If this team had even a semblance of a defense and/or a consistent running game I doubt we'd even be talking about him.

Here's my thing on Cousins and QB's in general.

1: We know that Elite QB's are rare and when a team has one they NEVER let go while that QB is in their prime.
If an Elite QB is on the market then there's something wrong. Generally they're washed up. We've been burnt like this before.
Even Peyton Manning who was traded from Indy to Denver only had a couple of years in him and to be honest their Superbowl came mostly on the strength of their Defense, not Manning. He was awful for them.
So the lesson here is that the chances of getting anything Elite at your QB position through trade is slim to none.

2: Because of item 1, even half decent QB's are in short supply and are hoarded and over paid by the teams that have them. It's rare these guys change hands either.

3: QB's from the draft are a lottery generally. For every Andrew Luck there's a RGIII. While it's nice to have a QB drafted that you can groom and hopefully be your long term Franchise QB for decades to come, it is a roll of the dice. Look at the list since 2009... (I won't list all, just the bigger names that we know- Number in brackets is the Round they were taken in)

Stafford (1), Sanchez (1), Freeman (1), McCoy (3), Tebow (1), Bradford (1), Newton (1), Gabbert (1), Locker (1), Ponder (1), Dalton (2), Kaepernick (2), Luck (1), Griffin (1), Taylor (6), Tannehill (1), Weedon (1), Osweiller (2), Foles (3), Wilson (3), Cousins (4), Manual (1), Smith (2), Glennon (2), Bortles (1), Manziel (1), Bridgewater (1), Carr (2), Garroppolo (2), Winston (1), Mariota (1), Siemian (7)

32 QB's there in 6 years, enough for every team in the League to have 1 each.

the hit rate in there is LOW. Out of those I'd say Wilson, Newton, Stafford, Dalton and Luck are the sure fire long term solutions to their Franchises issues. A further 10 or so are either out of the League already, or destined to be so shortly... or doomed to backup or even 3rd string status. Ignoring Cousins for a moment, for the rest they're either or they're stop gaps or we don't really know. Of those top 5, if I had a shot at Wilson, Newton or Luck I'd take them over Cousins.... Stafford I'm not sure I would. Of everyone else.... I don't know. Many I haven't seen enough of and after being burnt by the one season wonder of RGIII, I'm loathe to say I'd take the likes of Osweiller, Garroppolo or Bridgewater over him. Bortles and mariota don't fill me with a warm feeling of Franchise comfort. Carr looks good this year, but again for me the jury is out.

So we have Cousins. I guess the question becomes... who on that list above would you trade for him?

The definite s for me... the ones I listed above: Wilson, Newton, Stafford, Dalton and Luck, and as I said even Dalton and Stafford I'd think carefully about.

I wouldn't trade for Sanchez, Freeman, (we already have McCoy and he's not starting for us over Cousins), Tebow, Bradford, Locker, Ponder, Kaepernick, Griffin (we know he's not the answer), Taylor, Tannehill, Weedon, Foles, Smith, Glennon, Manziel.

Those I don't really have a firm feel for their future... Siemian, Mariota, Winston, Garroppolo, Carr, Bridgewater, Bortles, Manual, Osweiller, Gabbert. I'm not sure any of these is an upgrade at QB over Cousins though.

So for now I feel Cousins is as good as we can get and has potential to solve this position long term if he can continue to grow. I know he's been around a few years now, but with the RGIII circus going on, I still really (rightly or wrongly) see this as only his second full season under centre and I still feel like he should have had more pre-season time. He looks to be playing himself into form at the moment, I hope I'm right.
Plus to be fair the rest of our team and it's deficiencies doesn't help. We only just got our running game going and our Defense almost guarantees that we'll be playing from behind at some point every game.
No QB can do it alone, look at Andrew Luck! I have little doubt he's going to be a great QB, already is, but right now his O-Line is a disaster and he's being beaten up at every turn. Even the best can't carry a team with deep running issues.

He's not perfect, no QB is. Even Rodgers makes boneheaded decisions sometimes (I get alot of Packers exposure through the Wife so I've seen him throw some BAD passes too) and most people regard him as the best QB in the league. But he's a damn sight more stable than any QB we've had for a while.

I think he's upper tier, not Elite. He's not a cannon armed stud, he's a game manager and a pretty competent one who on his day can play lights out. I'd like to see him stick around on a reasonable contract for a while, get comfortable in this offense and continue to iron out the mistakes he makes. I'm not even saying he's better for us that the likes of Mariota, Winston etc... I just wouldn't see them as much better options in regards to us solving the position long term.

Sorry for the long post. LOL

See Om, Boone and Henry summed up my post far more succinctly. LOL

For some reason whenever I see Kirk sort of hunched up shifting his eyes around looking he reminds me of the Captain in Platoon calling in the airstrike on his own position (1:33)

Here's my problem - If I am a quality GM I don't accept the Brock Osweiler deal as being legit 'market'.

You don't give a guy with 7-8 starts a franchise contract.

The Texans dumb owner made the deal on his own without a GM having a role.

So, if I am the GM and Cousins' agent comes back and says we deserve 'X' because of this type of deal my response is 'well, the Redskins gave up 3 first round picks for Griffin in the draft. That doesn't mean I am going to follow suit in the future.'

Guys like Elway and Bellichick refuse to be drawn into giving guys inflated deals because some other team did something stupid.