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The Gruden Files - Year Two

Thank you for that. After the completely screwed day I had, a good chuckle is always good for the soul......

Can you point out where Jay showed solid leadership last season ?

Welcome home. Kick back with a cold one and enjoy some NFL.

I think the leadership was easy to see last season. There are about five examples that quickly come to mind, but these were probably the two biggest that everyone would agree on:

1. Taking a team whose season was basically already over into Dallas in primetime. Starting a 3rd string QB in a new offense against what had been the hottest team in the league and getting the win. It would have been easy to fold in such circumstances. That Dallas team finished with a record of 12-4. They were 6-1 going into that game, and had just beaten Seattle on the road. Almost no one beats Seattle on the road. That was obviously great leadership.

2. When was the last time a rookie HC had the balls, gravitas and leadership to bench the first round QB, and favorite player of a demanding owner? I'm sure there must be another example of it, but I can't recall of any at the moment. That also took great leadership, and illustrates the respect that he has within the organization. Imagine if a first year Jim Zorn had tried to do the same. No chance.

That's what all fans were clamoring for, right? A HC who would stand up to Snyder. A HC who would bring true competition. And a HC who could rally the team on the road in primetime against a strong opponent.

That's exactly what we got.
 
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I don't disagree that it's a combination of factors... but what does trump that is wins/losses. He could be the biggest a-hole, worst with the media, horrible to fans, trash talking jerk on the planet, but if he goes 10 - 6 every year, he would turn into 'our a-hole.' Wins and Losses mean more then any other factor of judging a coach. While he's made some stupid comments and done some things that I don't agree with, he also hasn't had a fair shot at addressing Wins and Losses. If we come out and completely crap the bed the next 2 seasons, he handles his coaching decisions poorly, and he's lost his lockerroom... it's a different conversation. That being said, like Micks said, he hasn't appeared to lose his lockerroom, even in the midst of this all too wonderful RG3 situation. If the guys are all in on the guy, what he shows us on the outside looking in should have zero part of whether or not he's retained as a coach. Like it or not... we don't matter.

let me approach this from a different angle. last year the etam invested how much money in Mr Gruden's salary? Let's say over 1 million dollars. So, on the face of it, does throwing good money after bad (last year's record) strike you as a smart investment?

humor aside, the idea in play comes up short on analysis....it assumes a good record is directly attributable to the HC. That givs short shrift to a situation in which there are many, many variables. In truth, after listening and watching Mr Gruden for over a year, I am much more inclined to believe, if this team actually wins more games, that the real credit will/should go to McL.

As for the lockerroom - a better argument is going to have to be made. there has been a large roster turn-over and it is the GM who brought in many of the individuals with leadership presence in that lockerroom. btw...who created much of the RGIII drama by lying in his interview and proving himself unable to develop talent? but I digress. on to themes other than RGIII.

doesn't that Jay guy just oooooooze with leadership presence and savoire-faire? I believe with many on this board that not only is he a mature adult, but that he also will one day number among offensive innovators of a caliber such as bill walsh and joe gibbs.

not.
 
So...you're a gruden fan again? Wasn't he a clown the other day?
 
The organization failed last year. Nothing changed last year in the organizational layers above Gruden. He was in an impossible situation. However, he did man up and bench RG and has now given the job based on merit. He has exhibited leadership and the team never turned on him despite the chaos. Will be builds us a winner? Heck if I know. But I did not see anything last year that makes me think he can't.

he did a screwed up job coaching his QB. gimme a break...if we have to reenergize this argument...our putz coach decided early on before last season where this was headed. RGIII failed. so did Jay Grudung.
 
I'll always be a Gruden fan. I've seen him walk into organizations like the Redskins before, turn them around quickly and win title after title. It's what he does.

I was praying that he'd somehow end up in DC for close to ten years now.

I didn't call him a clown. I called Dan and Bruce clowns.

I said McLovin may turn out to be a clown due to poor on-the-field decisions like picking up the option on RG3, and for problems in his personal life.

My only concern with Gruden is that he may turn out to be the last football man standing when the dust settles. And if he does leave, I just pray that his picks of Callahan and Fewell don't go with him.

I've already seen him overcome great odds to win consistently and win championships. I don't believe the Redskins circus is bigger than he is.
 
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dude....Gruden has never won a thing in the NFL - where the real men play. as OC his offense has been stuffed in every playoff game he coached in. what others might call a "win/loss record".

you're projecting from the mickey mouse leagues into the NFL. your option, of course.
 
Funny how Gruden only going into his 2nd season as an NFL HC means 'he's never won anything at this level' when you want it to, and yet you discount that this might also mean the book hasn't been written on him at the same time :). Oh, but I forgot, you were able to assess the sum total of his being and talent by his facial expressions during press conferences....


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he did a screwed up job coaching his QB. gimme a break...if we have to reenergize this argument...our putz coach decided early on before last season where this was headed. RGIII failed. so did Jay Grudung.


I think it's perfectly acceptable if Gruden decided after working with RG in the offseason last year that he didn't have the skills, ability or proper work ethic, that he'd want to go another direction. I don't think he had a choice but to run with RG. I think that contributed a large amount of frustration, and his lashing out at RG in public was as much about trying to get RG to do the right things as it was to put Snyder on public notice. RG doesn't have the right skills, doesn't have the feel, and no amount of coaching is ever gonna change that. By all accounts he did do the right thing this offseason, and he's still incapable of running a pro style NFL offense. I thought they should have cut ties in the off season, but I understand the business decision to try one more time to get some return on the investment. But he clearly isn't working out. We simply don't agree on RG.
 
That's not to say I think he's a coaching savant or even above average. I just don't think we know yet. Last year was an unwinnable situation. I think McCL changes the dynamic in that Gruden has the control of the players he needs to have. He's deciding who plays. He'll be able to sink or swim on his own merits.
 
dude....Gruden has never won a thing in the NFL - where the real men play. as OC his offense has been stuffed in every playoff game he coached in. what others might call a "win/loss record".

you're projecting from the mickey mouse leagues into the NFL. your option, of course.

So why did we draft Scherff?
 
"I didn't see any leadership from him."

Translation in most cases: "He was mean to my favorite player RG3 in public."
Translation in McD's case: "I have a Gruden Fat Head on every wall of my house. All pointing towards the bathroom. THAT'S leadership!"

I think the leadership was easy to see last season. There are about five examples that quickly come to mind, but these were probably the two biggest that everyone would agree on:
Easy to see for you, because it's what you want to see. So you interpret everything into a positive for your hero. And pass blame for anything wrong, onto someone else's lap.

1. Taking a team whose season was basically already over into Dallas in primetime. Starting a 3rd string QB in a new offense against what had been the hottest team in the league and getting the win. It would have been easy to fold in such circumstances. That Dallas team finished with a record of 12-4. They were 6-1 going into that game, and had just beaten Seattle on the road. Almost no one beats Seattle on the road. That was obviously great leadership.
Hahahaha! Really? So, are you saying, it was his leadership of keeping Haslett, that paid off for one game? Did he use "The Force" on the Dallas defender who dropped an interception in the endzone? Jim Zorn also went into Dallas, and Philly, and won. Doesn't that then make Jimmy an even better leader? Are you joking?

Come on, admit it. You were laughing your ass off when you wrote this, right? You're just pulling our leg, aren't you?

If this is one of your biggest 2, I have to tell you. You got nothing.

2. When was the last time a rookie HC had the balls, gravitas and leadership to bench the first round QB, and favorite player of a demanding owner? I'm sure there must be another example of it, but I can't recall of any at the moment. That also took great leadership, and illustrates the respect that he has within the organization. Imagine if a first year Jim Zorn had tried to do the same. No chance.
He did his job. Nothing else. After failing at his highest job priority, of helping all the QB's improve. In his rookie year, they ALL regressed. But, we know. It's only because Snyder was working with all of them on their fundamentals after practice every day. Demanding they do it his way.

That's what all fans were clamoring for, right? A HC who would stand up to Snyder. A HC who would bring true competition. And a HC who could rally the team on the road in primetime against a strong opponent.
You're far too desperate brother. But, it's great comedy. So, thanks for that.
 
I think it's perfectly acceptable if Gruden decided after working with RG in the offseason last year that he didn't have the skills, ability or proper work ethic, that he'd want to go another direction. I don't think he had a choice but to run with RG. I think that contributed a large amount of frustration, and his lashing out at RG in public was as much about trying to get RG to do the right things as it was to put Snyder on public notice. RG doesn't have the right skills, doesn't have the feel, and no amount of coaching is ever gonna change that. By all accounts he did do the right thing this offseason, and he's still incapable of running a pro style NFL offense. I thought they should have cut ties in the off season, but I understand the business decision to try one more time to get some return on the investment. But he clearly isn't working out. We simply don't agree on RG.

ever run a large organization with employees with varying skill levels?

1) we all know Gruden was hired to develop RGIII

2) we all know he either lied or gave up very early

3) we all know Gruden had the option of adapting or running his offense as designed = there's a disjunct somewhere between the observed events and what was HIGHLY likely to have been the context of the hiring in the first place

4) we all know Gruden seriously under-estimated the demands of being HC and was unable to allocate the time req'd to develop a player the team had already succeeding in screwing up. seasoned coach my rear end.

5) we know Gruden compounded the error by not recognizing that he needed a dedicated QB coach

did RGIII contribute to his issues? absolutely. Gruden failed as a leader and a developer of talent. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. the notion that the situation was unrepairable is ludicrous. I hope we cut RGIII sooner rather than later and that a real coach like Kelley or Billicheat picks him up and takes the time to develop the hybrid set of skills that can be successful. Gruden, IMO, was totally inflexible and wanted the outcome he got. kudos for play-pretending the first season to keep Snyder/Allen at bay. middle finger for not giving it his best effort - possibly preordaining outcomes.

just the same.....in my book Gruden is an eff-up and I would have fired his behind at the end of the season. for those who choose to idolize the man, perhaps they don't recognize the inconsistency in all the championships won and in-waiting and the totally chaotic, amateurish HC performance we had to suffer through last season. I can review the long list in my book where this guy is strictly second tier intellectually and as a leader. what is done is done. I know leaders when I see them....and Gruden aint no leader. I also have some reservations about his character......but that is only at the formative stages.
 
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Funny how Gruden only going into his 2nd season as an NFL HC means 'he's never won anything at this level' when you want it to, and yet you discount that this might also mean the book hasn't been written on him at the same time :). Oh, but I forgot, you were able to assess the sum total of his being and talent by his facial expressions during press conferences....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ummm...no. I just got through posting the OBSERVABLE, FACTUAL, EMPIRICAL evidence of his offensive success in the playoffs. the team's organization and on-field performance last season has also been discussed by many. if the forum of ideas allows for success in the mickey mouse leagues then I offer up that performance in the NFL counts as well. you know...the same standard the HC holds others to when making cuts.

as for facial expressions....while not my focus area...if you want to introduce the notion that the HC shares traits in common with Bozo the Clown or Ronald McDonald....OK! I'm down with that!

In truth, I don't quite understand why radio stations haven't caught on that they should mix a theme song along the lines of "He's got marty feldman eyes"!
 
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I think we all have valid concerns about whether Gruden can succeed here or is the right guy. But I'll continue to say that you can't judge anyone with just a single season of data - I think Om provided some pretty exhaustive evidence of that. I would be more open to what you're saying if it weren't dripping with so much scorn for the guy as I don't think he's done anything to warrant some of what you've said.


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As for progress, I can say he has done better with his press conferences, so far.
Coaching hires are an improvement.

But the rubber doesn't hit the road until Sunday @1pm.

And it's gonna be a GREAT DAY!!!

HTTR!!!
 
You know I love you guys, but great googly-moogly, some of you really do think you've got it figured.

 
let me approach this from a different angle. last year the etam invested how much money in Mr Gruden's salary? Let's say over 1 million dollars. So, on the face of it, does throwing good money after bad (last year's record) strike you as a smart investment?

humor aside, the idea in play comes up short on analysis....it assumes a good record is directly attributable to the HC. That givs short shrift to a situation in which there are many, many variables. In truth, after listening and watching Mr Gruden for over a year, I am much more inclined to believe, if this team actually wins more games, that the real credit will/should go to McL.

As for the lockerroom - a better argument is going to have to be made. there has been a large roster turn-over and it is the GM who brought in many of the individuals with leadership presence in that lockerroom. btw...who created much of the RGIII drama by lying in his interview and proving himself unable to develop talent? but I digress. on to themes other than RGIII.

doesn't that Jay guy just oooooooze with leadership presence and savoire-faire? I believe with many on this board that not only is he a mature adult, but that he also will one day number among offensive innovators of a caliber such as bill walsh and joe gibbs.

not.




How is it fair to say whether or not paying Gruden was a good investment after 1 season? I'm not saying it was a good investment because there's no way of truly knowing at this point. I do however believe letting a guy go after 1 season WOULD be a poor investment choice, when the actual evaluation of his ability is not one that can be 100%. Again, that's my opinion, I haven't seen enough from the guy to feel like he should be fired.... yet. I'm not closed minded to seeing it happen, and like I stated before, he's done things that I absolutely don't agree with. He's also done some things that I feel were very positive. Both of those statements are all relative, and opinion based and been pretty much beaten to death.
 
ever run a large organization with employees with varying skill levels?

1) we all know Gruden was hired to develop RGIII

2) we all know he either lied or gave up very early

3) we all know Gruden had the option of adapting or running his offense as designed = there's a disjunct somewhere between the observed events and what was HIGHLY likely to have been the context of the hiring in the first place

4) we all know Gruden seriously under-estimated the demands of being HC and was unable to allocate the time req'd to develop a player the team had already succeeding in screwing up. seasoned coach my rear end.

5) we know Gruden compounded the error by not recognizing that he needed a dedicated QB coach

did RGIII contribute to his issues? absolutely. Gruden failed as a leader and a developer of talent. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. the notion that the situation was unrepairable is ludicrous. I hope we cut RGIII sooner rather than later and that a real coach like Kelley or Billicheat picks him up and takes the time to develop the hybrid set of skills that can be successful. Gruden, IMO, was totally inflexible and wanted the outcome he got. kudos for play-pretending the first season to keep Snyder/Allen at bay. middle finger for not giving it his best effort - possibly preordaining outcomes.

just the same.....in my book Gruden is an eff-up and I would have fired his behind at the end of the season. for those who choose to idolize the man, perhaps they don't recognize the inconsistency in all the championships won and in-waiting and the totally chaotic, amateurish HC performance we had to suffer through last season. I can review the long list in my book where this guy is strictly second tier intellectually and as a leader. what is done is done. I know leaders when I see them....and Gruden aint no leader. I also have some reservations about his character......but that is only at the formative stages.



This goes back to the argument that somewhere we KNOW factually that Gruden was brought in to 'fix' Griffin. I am yet to see ANYTHING from the team, or anyone at Redskins park saying that is the case. Snyder never said it. Was it said in his entrance presser? I'm sorry I just haven't seen it. Reporters were saying he was, but those were articles and opinion pieces. Nothing tangible says that his coaching would be evaluated on how well he 'fixed' Griffin.


He also realized he was over-run last year and brought in a QB coach. Some people do need time to learn. Very few people anywhere, in any position can walk into their first possible opportunity and be successful without hitting snags and making mistakes.... especially walking into a situation like ours.
 
This goes back to the argument that somewhere we KNOW factually that Gruden was brought in to 'fix' Griffin. I am yet to see ANYTHING from the team, or anyone at Redskins park saying that is the case. Snyder never said it. Was it said in his entrance presser? I'm sorry I just haven't seen it. Reporters were saying he was, but those were articles and opinion pieces. Nothing tangible says that his coaching would be evaluated on how well he 'fixed' Griffin.


He also realized he was over-run last year and brought in a QB coach. Some people do need time to learn. Very few people anywhere, in any position can walk into their first possible opportunity and be successful without hitting snags and making mistakes.... especially walking into a situation like ours.

if you will forgive me...I'm seeing a double standard here.

1) We need to keep Gruden because, well, the probability is we need 2-3 years to determine whether he is a capable coach;

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut,

2) we have no direct evidence that Snyder/Allen actually communicated that one responsibility for Gruden would be developing RGIII; the high probability that this obvious problem was not part of the discussion is not discussion admissible.

not to make light of things.....just want to make sure I have it right:

1) RGIII had one year to absorb a new system, new coach, overcome an injury. he failed. out the door.

2) Jay Gruden has one year of failure under his belt; but because of all the change surrounding him he's entitled to another 2-3 years to adapt and "learn" the nuances of his profession...Head Coach.

ok. it is Washington, D.C. after all!
 
fan, just curious ... if Robert hadn't gotten concussed, do you think Gruden should have started him Sunday?
 

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