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The Gruden Files - Year Two

First and foremost, won-loss record IS the measuring stick for coaches, regardless of roster, personality, who's man he is (i.e. who hired him.) Nothing else really matters. Not the media talking, not the outside noise factor, not the personal preferences of the front office, nothing but the record.

Second, most all of us here know that with any first year head coach, there is a honeymoon. And it ain't one year fellas. Those that want him gone after one year have made up their minds and therefore offer nothing to the discussion. now or in the future unless they want to be like Hillary and change their mind later about what they said previously. Whatever.
I'll give the guy his 5 year contract to make it work. Now THAT's a novel idea.

What I want to see in terms of measuring Gruden's performance during the year (NOT the won-loss record at the end of the year), is how he manages his coaching staff considering all the changes. Supposedly, he is going to ride heard on the defense this year unlike last year when he gave Haz carte blanch authority. That will not be an objective measurement. ITs entirely subjective. If he sees incompetence from his staff, I expect Gruden to be the one to make changes, NOT the GM. IF it is the GM, then what power does Gruden really have on the field, vis a vis, his staff. By the way, yesterday's quotes should let all of you know Gruden is not calling plays. So keep that in mind when you criticize offensive production. What I want to see is Gruden step in and make changes to that if he sees that the current set up is not working. Its going to be his adaptability during game management that I want to witness before hanging him. And this year, why don't we differentiate between poor player execution versus poor coaching decisions. Another novel idea.
 
New coaches don't inherit winning rosters in most cases. There hasn't seemed to be any discontent from the players. Appearances are they are all in. I'm not sure another new Head Coach has been hand cuffed in the way Gruden was last year to RG. I still contend his public comments on RG were far more calculated than given credit for. I'd like to see the coaching carousel stopped. He'd have to really be incompetent to get axed this year.
 
First and foremost, won-loss record IS the measuring stick for coaches, regardless of roster, personality, who's man he is (i.e. who hired him.) Nothing else really matters. Not the media talking, not the outside noise factor, not the personal preferences of the front office, nothing but the record.

Second, most all of us here know that with any first year head coach, there is a honeymoon. And it ain't one year fellas. Those that want him gone after one year have made up their minds and therefore offer nothing to the discussion. now or in the future unless they want to be like Hillary and change their mind later about what they said previously. Whatever.
I'll give the guy his 5 year contract to make it work. Now THAT's a novel idea.

What I want to see in terms of measuring Gruden's performance during the year (NOT the won-loss record at the end of the year), is how he manages his coaching staff considering all the changes. Supposedly, he is going to ride heard on the defense this year unlike last year when he gave Haz carte blanch authority. That will not be an objective measurement. ITs entirely subjective. If he sees incompetence from his staff, I expect Gruden to be the one to make changes, NOT the GM. IF it is the GM, then what power does Gruden really have on the field, vis a vis, his staff. By the way, yesterday's quotes should let all of you know Gruden is not calling plays. So keep that in mind when you criticize offensive production. What I want to see is Gruden step in and make changes to that if he sees that the current set up is not working. Its going to be his adaptability during game management that I want to witness before hanging him. And this year, why don't we differentiate between poor player execution versus poor coaching decisions. Another novel idea.

Your post is insane. No offense. :) You're saying that those of us that want Gruden out have already made up our minds and changing our minds is tatamount to some sort of wishy-washiness. Or something. That's enough to brand that post as crazy. Are you saying as an adult, you've NEVER changed your mind on something? You've never received more information, or something or someone about which you made a decision did something differently or exhibited some kind of different behavior that caused you to re-evaluate that person or situation?

If that's what you're saying, I feel genuinely sorry for you because that's no way to go through life.

For me, I would have had no problem had Scot come in and fired Gruden this Spring. I don't think there was anything in Jay's performance last year that mandated his return. In fact, I saw plenty of signs quite the opposite. But that doesn't mean I won't get more information that goes counter to my initial impression; or that Jay himself won't vastly improve which would also cause me to change my opinion.

But is your contention that if we go 0-16 this year and every facet of the team looks worse than last year that we should honor a five year contract? At that point, wouldn't YOU have new information that would cause you to reevaluate your existing position?
 
I agree with every word of micks post.


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Am I the only person who occasionally gets new information that requires thoughtful evaluation which then in turn sometimes necessitates a change? Really?
 
Am I the only person who occasionally gets new information that requires thoughtful evaluation which then in turn sometimes necessitates a change? Really?

I don't think the post was saying he was closed minded to change... as much as he doesn't think Gruden should be cut down after a bad season in a trend of bad seasons, without giving him an extended period and opportunity to actually change things. Gruden's handling of Griffin last season was frustrating, but the fact that we went 4 - 12 in his first season, after being bad for multiple years, is a measuring stick used against him without him having ample time to actually make a difference.
 
I don't think the post was saying he was closed minded to change... as much as he doesn't think Gruden should be cut down after a bad season in a trend of bad seasons, without giving him an extended period and opportunity to actually change things. Gruden's handling of Griffin last season was frustrating, but the fact that we went 4 - 12 in his first season, after being bad for multiple years, is a measuring stick used against him without him having ample time to actually make a difference.

That's all fine, but that isn't what he said.

Bottom line is that Gruden failed last year. I'm OK with giving him another chance especially because it didn't seem like we had any incredible alternatives. I'd have been OK if Scot had fired him too though, I don't think he inspires confidence. Hopefully, that changes this season. That'd be great if it happens. I saw little last year to suggest it will, but I sure as hell am hoping it does. Because otherwise this season is going to pretty much blow.

My best guess as to what happens says we tread water this year, Gruden doesn't get a lot worse, but also doesn't get a lot better. The decision to retain him is a toss-up with valid points made on both sides. It's going to take Scot a couple more years to rebuild the roster, so if Gruden pulls his shit together and shows something promising, he can stay and coach an improved roster. If he shows no promise, or gets worse, we dump him and Scot brings in his own guy.
 
That's all fine, but that isn't what he said.

Actually it is what he said, just not in so many words.

What I want to see in terms of measuring Gruden's performance during the year (NOT the won-loss record at the end of the year), is how he manages his coaching staff considering all the changes. Supposedly, he is going to ride heard on the defense this year unlike last year when he gave Haz carte blanch authority. That will not be an objective measurement. ITs entirely subjective. If he sees incompetence from his staff, I expect Gruden to be the one to make changes, NOT the GM. IF it is the GM, then what power does Gruden really have on the field, vis a vis, his staff. By the way, yesterday's quotes should let all of you know Gruden is not calling plays. So keep that in mind when you criticize offensive production. What I want to see is Gruden step in and make changes to that if he sees that the current set up is not working. Its going to be his adaptability during game management that I want to witness before hanging him. And this year, why don't we differentiate between poor player execution versus poor coaching decisions. Another novel idea.


He's not closed minded to "Hanging him" but there are things he's looking for prior to doing that.

Having the mentality that Gruden should get his 5 years is not an unfair idea. Things may change thinking... but the idea is that we plan on having Gruden for 4 more years, based on his contract, because as of right now, thats the plan. You and some others feel like he's done enough to potentially warrant that dismissal. I personally agree with micks in the idea that he's going to struggle and mess up at times, but based on win / loss.. I can't hold that against him... yet.
 
Actually it is what he said, just not in so many words.

He's not closed minded to "Hanging him" but there are things he's looking for prior to doing that.

OK. I disagree based on the paragraph above the one you posted that struck me as condescending and shitty. If I have already made my mind up about firing Gruden and have nothing to contribute to the conversation, then he is essentially telling me I can't change my mind. So if I can't change my mind, I took that to mean that he can't change his either, in his unwavering support of Gruden.

Which is, as I pointed out, insane. :)

Having the mentality that Gruden should get his 5 years is not an unfair idea. Things may change thinking... but the idea is that we plan on having Gruden for 4 more years, based on his contract, because as of right now, thats the plan. You and some others feel like he's done enough to potentially warrant that dismissal. I personally agree with micks in the idea that he's going to struggle and mess up at times, but based on win / loss.. I can't hold that against him... yet.

If I were basing my opinion of Gruden on win/loss records, I could see your point. But I'm not. My recurring theme has been, and continues to be, leadership. I don't see it with Gruden. He theoretically can learn it and adapt, though I don't see much chance of that. But again, I've been wrong before and will be wrong again. I hope Jay gives me the new information needed to force me to reevaluate and change my assessment.
 
Do some research, brother. Let's see if you're right.

On the red stuff ... I've been suggesting for some time that Gruden may have inherited as big a mess as any coach in NFL history. Do you disagree?

I don't disagree vis the disarray.

I can also claim with reasonable assurance that the set of all new coaches who had 2-3 year tenures and failed exceeds those who went on to success. you may be able to argue that 2-3 years is a necessary condition......but I already know it's not a sufficient condition. a lot more goes into being a successful coach. another way of putting it: there are observable factors that can reveal in year one that success is in not in cards. see Jim Zorn.
 
I don't think the post was saying he was closed minded to change... as much as he doesn't think Gruden should be cut down after a bad season in a trend of bad seasons, without giving him an extended period and opportunity to actually change things. Gruden's handling of Griffin last season was frustrating, but the fact that we went 4 - 12 in his first season, after being bad for multiple years, is a measuring stick used against him without him having ample time to actually make a difference.

ST...while that makes sense on one plane...it neglects the observable behaviors that one can draw upon to make a complete assessment. it's more than just a record. the obvious rejoinder is coaches who failed with one team but went on to great success at another.
 
ST...while that makes sense on one plane...it neglects the observable behaviors that one can draw upon to make a complete assessment. it's more than just a record. the obvious rejoinder is coaches who failed with one team but went on to great success at another.

I don't disagree that it's a combination of factors... but what does trump that is wins/losses. He could be the biggest a-hole, worst with the media, horrible to fans, trash talking jerk on the planet, but if he goes 10 - 6 every year, he would turn into 'our a-hole.' Wins and Losses mean more then any other factor of judging a coach. While he's made some stupid comments and done some things that I don't agree with, he also hasn't had a fair shot at addressing Wins and Losses. If we come out and completely crap the bed the next 2 seasons, he handles his coaching decisions poorly, and he's lost his lockerroom... it's a different conversation. That being said, like Micks said, he hasn't appeared to lose his lockerroom, even in the midst of this all too wonderful RG3 situation. If the guys are all in on the guy, what he shows us on the outside looking in should have zero part of whether or not he's retained as a coach. Like it or not... we don't matter.
 
The organization failed last year. Nothing changed last year in the organizational layers above Gruden. He was in an impossible situation. However, he did man up and bench RG and has now given the job based on merit. He has exhibited leadership and the team never turned on him despite the chaos. Will be builds us a winner? Heck if I know. But I did not see anything last year that makes me think he can't.
 
"I didn't see any leadership from him."

Translation in most cases: "He was mean to my favorite player RG3 in public."
 
I didn't see anything last year to make me think he can.
 
"I didn't see any leadership from him."

Translation in most cases: "He was mean to my favorite player RG3 in public."

Thank you for that. After the completely screwed day I had, a good chuckle is always good for the soul......

Can you point out where Jay showed solid leadership last season ?
 
Thank you for that. After the completely screwed day I had, a good chuckle is always good for the soul......

Can you point out where Jay showed solid leadership last season ?

Er ... he was mean to my least favorite player RG3 in public? :)
 
Chuck Noll won ONE game his first year as Steelers' coach. They went 1-13.

Bill Walsh won TWO games his first year in SF. They went 2-14.

All coaches need time to get 'their' players in place and install systems that reflect their coaching philosophy.

IMO, it was not the losing last year that was the issue with Gruden. The talent was largely missing from a team that went 3-13 the year before and Bruce Allen didn't give him many new gems to work with.

My issue with Gruden was his lack of organization. His staff, especially on offense was pretty young, and there seemed to be a lot of confusion on the field about what was being run. He also came into a rough situation at qb, with Griffin coming off a poor season and injuries and looking to adapt his game, etc. But Gruden decided as HC that he was also going to wear the hat as QB coach. That was a clear mistake as Gruden miscalculated how much time the HC job demands.

He has made some changes based on what didn't work in 2014. We have a qb coach this time around. We have a new defensive coordinator. While not a household name, he's not a lame duck from the previous staff either.

We definitely have better coaches in Callahan and Fewell.

Players on the OL didn't seem to improve year over year under Foerster.

And I definitely thought Morris was way overrated as the backfield coach.

Morris was personable and evidently socialized with his players off the field.

The rumor in Tampa was that Morris liked to stop off for a tall, cold one on the way home.

Fewell seems to be more traditional. He's the coach, not a father confessor or older brother.

Guys like David Amerson are going to have to prove they can be more consistent contributors or they are going to find themselves gone.
 
Morris was personable and evidently socialized with his players off the field.

The rumor in Tampa was that Morris liked to stop off for a tall, cold one on the way home.

Lots of jiggle joints close to the stadium.... :)
 

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