Is Gruden playing possum?

Fear The Spear said:

He no longer does that best. He's not the player he was before. You can see it when he takes off running from the pocket, or attempts to.

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maybe. he has been trained over the last year or so to change his behavior patterns on the field.

I agree completely. They pushed protect yourself so much, he's gun shy....

fansince62 said:

maybe. he has been trained over the last year or so to change his behavior patterns on the field.

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Miles Monroe said:

I agree completely. They pushed protect yourself so much, he's gun shy....

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I don't know if it's mental (over-thinking on the scramble, like he does on the passing), or if it's physical (still damaged from previous injury(ies), but he just doesn't have anywhere near the explosiveness that he once had, even when he decides to use his "strength" and scramble/run.

He's always had a fumbling issue. He has averaged nearly one a game over his career.
In addition to what mobility problems that may be present - you don't want anybody running around with the rock if they can't hold onto it.

Playing possum? 13 pass attempts in two games for a QB and an offense with at least a couple of issues is more like Russian roulette with an automatic.

Maybe handing out enough rope for a hanging.

Fear The Spear said:

I don't know if it's mental (over-thinking on the scramble, like he does on the passing), or if it's physical (still damaged from previous injury(ies), but he just doesn't have anywhere near the explosiveness that he once had, even when he decides to use his "strength" and scramble/run.

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Whatever it may be, we're dealing with seriously damaged goods at this point.

JohnssBass said:

He's always had a fumbling issue. He has averaged nearly one a game over his career.

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Goodness gracious, you're right.....35 starts....and 32 fumbles. And that's just the regular season games.
Meanwhile, it's weird and ironic how Cousins is the one who gets the label "turnover machine" just based on literally a couple bad games

Fear The Spear said:

I don't know if it's mental (over-thinking on the scramble, like he does on the passing), or if it's physical (still damaged from previous injury(ies), but he just doesn't have anywhere near the explosiveness that he once had, even when he decides to use his "strength" and scramble/run.

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agree. just making the point that common sense suggests there are several factors in play among them his physical ability and what he is being trained and told to do.

Fear The Spear said:

Goodness gracious, you're right.....35 starts....and 32 fumbles. And that's just the regular season games.
Meanwhile, it's weird and ironic how Cousins is the one who gets the label "turnover machine" just based on literally a couple bad games

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in what way are interceptions and sacks or scrambles leading to fumbles comparable? totally different activities. totally different causes. different sets of actors.

in a separate vein: do you think there is a correlation between fumbles per start and sacks per start? my problem with all of this is that analysis flat out sucks. Griffin clearly contributes to his issues. but anyone who watches the games - like the last one - knows without having to be a professional statistician that the pass protection on this team has sucked for years and been a major problem. in other adventures into complexity land - if the coaches don't adjust during a game for putrid blocking, where does the problem lie? if the TEs and RBs can't make the right decision - there is a logic in what they are taught - where does the problem lie? just making the simple point that when the witch hunts start one ought to be sure to round up all the witches.

Griffin is symptomatic of a pattern we have seen in Redskin land for decades: poor talent, atrocious coaching, awful roster management, etc., leading to QB careers destroyed because they are beaten to a pulp very early in their careers. the fact that many don't like Griffin because of his media approach or intransigence against bending his will to the call of others (e.g., media luminaries) is irrelevant to the root causes that operate to kill our QBs year after year. Griffin will stay or go. he will just be another promising career dashed on the rocks of redskin incompetence.

Fear The Spear said:

Goodness gracious, you're right.....35 starts....and 32 fumbles. And that's just the regular season games.
Meanwhile, it's weird and ironic how Cousins is the one who gets the label "turnover machine" just based on literally a couple bad games

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I'm curious, is that fumbles only, or fumbles lost?

Shi no Tenshi said:

I'm curious, is that fumbles only, or fumbles lost?

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10 fumbles lost. I probably should have included that in my original post so my apologies for the oversight.

But even if it is recovered the play usually results in a loss of yards or at least nullifies what may have been a good play. The outcome of a fumble is rarely beneficial. If a WR or RB dropped it that often they would be on the bench. Not saying that he should be benched solely for fumbles but it is an issue.

Grossman was fairly notorious for having butterfingers. His average was about 1 every other game; 54 games/32 fumbles/19 lost.

JohnssBass said:

10 fumbles lost. I probably should have included that in my original post so my apologies for the oversight.

But even if it is recovered the play usually results in a loss of yards or at least nullifies what may have been a good play. The outcome of a fumble is rarely beneficial. If a WR or RB dropped it that often they would be on the bench. Not saying that he should be benched solely for fumbles but it is an issue.

Grossman was fairly notorious for having butterfingers. His average was about 1 every other game; 54 games/32 fumbles/19 lost.

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Agreed, it isn't a good thing to have happen. I was just asking in reference to others being referred to as a turnover machine instead. Not lost, no turnover, so not as severe.

Besides, one fumble turned into a TD!

Griffins trend since 2012 has been going the wrong way in terms fumbles per attempt for both passing and rushing each year. Cousins has been going the right way each year as far as fumbling but he throws an Int for every TD and that has not improved. So yeah I can see where the turnover machine label comes from as far as Kirk goes.

fansince62 said:

in what way are interceptions and sacks or scrambles leading to fumbles comparable? totally different activities. totally different causes. different sets of actors..

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Of course, they're different in some ways, and of course, not identical. But the similarities are totally relevant.
In many ways a QB fumble is worse than an INT. At least with an INT, the defense often ends up with the ball further down the field, while a QB fumble, if recovered, is closer to scoring for the opponent, and more likely to be a score, since there's less offensive players in proximity to tackle the defender. Any defender that picks up a fumble in the offensive backfield or close to it, is probably 10 times more likely to score than a DB who INT's it further back. And of course if they don't score on the turnover play, they're still more likely to score on that ensuing possession, due to better field position.

And yes, I realize the opponents did not recover a lot of his fumbles, but do you really want a QB playing russian roulette every time he fumbles ?

fansince62 said:

in a separate vein: do you think there is a correlation between fumbles per start and sacks per start? my problem with all of this is that analysis flat out sucks. Griffin clearly contributes to his issues. but anyone who watches the games - like the last one - knows without having to be a professional statistician that the pass protection on this team has sucked for years and been a major problem.

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Well, that's fine if the pass protection is bad on a short-term basis. But if you're a QB and you KNOW your pass pro' is perpetually poor, what do you do as a result, and as a professional ? You make adjustments. There's a whole list of things you do, and can do, to protect that ball.
No different than a RB, who has a fumbling problem. What do you expect him to do ? Continue to carry the ball recklessly, or make adjustments to protect the ball ?
It makes no difference whose fault the pass protection is, as it's still the QB's responsibility to take necessary precautions to protect it.
Bad pass pro' does not give a QB complete immunity,

If we're talking fumbles and holding it against players we have to talk morris as well. Griffin isn't alone in that trend

micks113 said:

On the pre-season.......the third game has always traditionally been the game to play the 1st unit. I don't think Robert should play, I would like to see Kirk in there with the 1's. Sounds like Gruden is waffling on Robert, using the word "I imagine he will remain starter". Imagine????

On returning to the pistol......we can't go back to the pistol, Robert gets killed in open field and actually his limbs probably will give out again without being hit. He must learn to play under center, we are committed to the run game, he must learn the art of play action, and learn the art of picking up the tempo. He is too slow to read and act in the pocket. Way to slow. Even Romo said that his best strength was his ability to think quickly with his decision making during the play.

On Goaldeje's general assessment...... what I'm talking about and have been on board with all along. Robert was ruined in 2012 and Gruden not up to the monumental task of bringing this team together. Won't take long to lose a lockerroom.

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I like what you wrote here. However I am still not convinced this is strictly about having Robert learn to play under center. Colt and Kirk played much more from the gun and Robert can learn to fix many of his issues from the gun as well, which should buy him more time. Trust me, I know he needs work under center too. I hope he gets a lot of play in game 3, as we all just want to erase from our minds what we saw on Thursday.

MikeSr619 said:

If we're talking fumbles and holding it against players we have to talk morris as well. Griffin isn't alone in that trend

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Morris? Last year 282 touches/2 fumbles/0 lost. 2013 285 touches/5 fumbles/4 lost. His first year: 346 touches/4 fumbles/3 lost.
So actually his trend is moving towards less fumbling.

11 fumbles in 3 years...that's not good at all. His attempts are also getting lower and that could have something to do with it.

Fear The Spear said:

Of course, they're different in some ways, and of course, not identical. But the similarities are totally relevant.
In many ways a QB fumble is worse than an INT. At least with an INT, the defense often ends up with the ball further down the field, while a QB fumble, if recovered, is closer to scoring for the opponent, and more likely to be a score, since there's less offensive players in proximity to tackle the defender. Any defender that picks up a fumble in the offensive backfield or close to it, is probably 10 times more likely to score than a DB who INT's it further back. And of course if they don't score on the turnover play, they're still more likely to score on that ensuing possession, due to better field position.

And yes, I realize the opponents did not recover a lot of his fumbles, but do you really want a QB playing russian roulette every time he fumbles ?




Well, that's fine if the pass protection is bad on a short-term basis. But if you're a QB and you KNOW your pass pro' is perpetually poor, what do you do as a result, and as a professional ? You make adjustments. There's a whole list of things you do, and can do, to protect that ball.
No different than a RB, who has a fumbling problem. What do you expect him to do ? Continue to carry the ball recklessly, or make adjustments to protect the ball ?
It makes no difference whose fault the pass protection is, as it's still the QB's responsibility to take necessary precautions to protect it.
Bad pass pro' does not give a QB complete immunity,

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nice response!

I'm seeing the problem a bit differently...which explains why we have different priorities.

1) Your first response looks at consequences. Even there, btw, picks are returned for TDs. That said, I am focused on causes. I'm more interested in how we get to the point of observing the behavior we see on the field. And I believe it is reasonable to think that the events leading to a fumble are the product of multiple causes...many of which have nothing to do with a given play but all the training, decision-making, etc., that lead up to the behavior. If Griffin has less than 3 seconds to respond to an outside LB arriving untouched or an inside bulrush on top of him....then there is more in play than his ability to sidestep - the blocking scheme isn't working right, blocking technique isn't working right, the blocking scheme either planned or called at the line isn't working, the play scheme may not have been correct with either no TE/RB blocking support or failed support....and so on.

2) As for adjustments, what's your analysis on the probability of success for doing so on each one of those sacks against Detroit? I can see that being a reasonable criticism for his last play in the game - he in fact did decide to tuck and run for the gap...so there was decision to adjust. Dropped the ball and that messed it up. btw...I listened to B. Mitch's analysis: he hammered Griffin for not making a quick decision to hit one of two opportunities for short passes on that play. I had two problems with this - the receivers were way short of first down yardage (though running is basically same situation in terms of probability). More importantly...the Cousins pass for a TD to Ross? Go watch the play - number 25 (Thompson) delays a second and then slips into the end-zone and is open way early with no one even close. Cousins locks on to Ross instead and takes a lot longer to execute a play down by end zone. It's the same problem as Griffin is criticized for but B. Mitch doesn't even allow that thought (i.e., consistency) into his analysis. At this point I begin to have second thoughts: there's more going on than just straight up honest analysis. there are double standards in play.

3) Who argued for complete immunity? Why I'm just humbly suggesting that if the blocking weren't so hopelessly eff'd up in the first place we'd never get to this situation. What's the average, btw, for all QBs fumbling when hit from the blindside? Griffin needs pocket work...no doubt about it. He needs to speed up decision-making. no doubt about it. too bad his teammates make things worse rather than better - over the last 2-3 years.

Still thinking that Gruden is gone by the bye and Callahan takes over. Just a gut feeling.

Burgundy Burner said:

Still thinking that Gruden is gone by the bye and Callahan takes over. Just a gut feeling.

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I doubt it. Snyder took so much grief the last time he sacked a coach mid-year (plus it never makes the team better, except in hockey), and if he wouldn't do it to Zorn (who everyone knew was going to be fired), I don't think Gruden gets fired mid-season. If Gruden goes it will be after the season (like before he makes it back to his office).