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Special Teams Improvement

Bulldog

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We now have a punter who can kick for distance and a FG kicker that is consistent on the crucial 'makes' in crunch time.

With that said, I don't see why we can't use Tress Way on kickoffs much as Joe Gibbs used Steve Cox to improve our returns against numbers.

We didn't have a legit punter going into last offseason and drafted Hoecker to challenge
Forbath. But FGs is not where we need to improve. And we certainly don't want to replace Forbath with a stronger but more inconsistent place kicker just to get an advantage on kickoffs.


The other issue is return yardage. We have suffered for years in putting guys back on returns who were either too inexperienced or veterans that are looking not to get hurt.

Whether it is looking at the CFL as Beathard did to find a Mike Nelms or drafting an experienced returner in April, we need to upgrade here in a purposeful way.

We can't simply decide to put Roberts out there because we just acquired Jackson and he's now the #3 receiver.

Roberts had Antwaan Randle El disease, he was a vet that didn't want to risk getting hurt on special teams so he ran scared.

We need to find an aggressive returner who looks at this as Job No. 1.
 
I'm firmly in the move on from Forbath camp myself. In my opinion at least, he's nowhere near a level of consistency with his field goals that would justify the ridiculously short kickoffs and missed games. Downgrading field goal accuracy for longer kickoffs obviously isn't the goal. That could always turn out to be the case, but there should definitely be an open competition at kicker again this year.
 
SNF said:
I'm firmly in the move on from Forbath camp myself. In my opinion at least, he's nowhere near a level of consistency with his field goals that would justify the ridiculously short kickoffs and missed games. Downgrading field goal accuracy for longer kickoffs obviously isn't the goal. That could always turn out to be the case, but there should definitely be an open competition at kicker again this year.
Click to expand...

How do you come to this conclusion brother? Forbath is the best kicker we've had in 20 years. he was 8th in the league in FG% made in 2014 making 88.8% of his FGs, and he was all-world in 2012. Even with a mediocre 2013 season, here are his stats over 3 years:

20-29 yards: 17/18
30-39 yards: 18/20
40-49 yards: 22/25
50 yards +: 2/4
Extra Points: 90/92

Those are the numbers of a very consistent kicker. He has improved greatly on kickoffs. In short, he is solid as a rock and the closest thing to automatic on FGs than we've had in a long, long time. We should apply such a high bar at other positions across this team. If we did, we'd be a perennial playoff team. We have no problems at the kicker position.
 
Consistent groin injuries and missed games and consistently short kickoffs are problems. The last two years he's started off at times with longer kickoffs but then injured his groin and missed games. When he's come back from his injuries he reverts to shorter kickoffs. Today's simple resolution to crappy kickoff coverage in the NFL is simply kicking it out of the end zone. If the short kickoffs were high with a lot of hang time I'd have less of an issue with it.

Certainly better than many recent Redskins kickers when it has come to field goals, and much of the time has looked solid. The missed 33 yard field goal in Philly early this past year hurt. That wasn't the first key miss of a short field goal, but my memory isn't good enough to recall the specifics of earlier misses. Pretty sure there were a few blocked kicks that had come out extremely low, but again, I don't have the memory to state specifics. I also found it disturbing to hear comments around that time that he sucks during the week in practice but usually pulls it together for the games. Pretty sure that was a laughing Gruden with that comment.

Again, I've never said don't resign him, he's a restricted free agent and should be resigned. But there's nothing wrong with open competition, and I do feel they could improve there. Will they find someone better? No idea. Could they find someone who looks better in pre-season only to falter in the regular season season? Absolutely.

I'm clearly nowhere near as impressed with his greatness as you are. Rock solid? I don't agree. No problems at kicker? That sounds great, but that's not what I've seen. If open competition at kicker meant sacrificing at another position I'd understand the issue, but it doesn't. No big deal, just my point of view.
 
Right, he has suffered groin injuries, just like Mark Moseley.

Gibbs decided that rather than cut a productive kicker to have his strong-legged punter do the kickoffs.

Problem solved.
 
Bingo! BT.

I would like to see a RB/WR with 4.2 speed drafted who can return kicks/punts.
 
Bulldog's Twin said:
Right, he has suffered groin injuries, just like Mark Moseley.

Gibbs decided that rather than cut a productive kicker to have his strong-legged punter do the kickoffs.

Problem solved.
Click to expand...

Cool. If he's the next Mark Moseley then he shouldn't have any problem disposing of any pre-season competition. That'll work for me.
 
Not averse to seeing competition, just trying to figure out how to get the most out of the roster we have.

Gibbs was flexible.

Whatever works.

We took a center in Darryl Grant and made him a DT.

We took a DT in Joe Jacoby and turned him into a tackle.

We had Clarence Harmon and Nick Giaquinto as third down backs because they had great hands and knew their role not because they were threats to go 80 yards with a screen pass.

We have to get over this paralysis where people think we need a pro bowler or first round pick to fill these holes.

NE didn't win with that many first round picks headlining the way.

Most of these guys were mid picks or free agents released from other clubs,
 
I agree with that too. That's what McCloughan is supposed to be all about. I'm not sure how many guys will be major contributors after changing positions nowadays, but the team definitely needs to hit on the mid level guys way more often.
 
We could use an upgrade at Kicker... Forbath is "Just A Guy" (JAG) if he can't kick deep kickoffs and if the Redskins can't trust him over 50 yards. Ignore how you feel about his solid performance and just look at the FG numbers around the league... In fact, play with the "STATS LAB" on nfl.com for kickers. There is very little that separates one kicker from another, until you get above 50 yards. Kai Forbath has attempted 4 kicks over 50 yards the last 3 years and he has made 2 of them. This season, Steven Hauschka was 2-4 over 50 yards JUST THIS SEASON AND THAT RANKED 20th OVERALL... Sometimes, it's a matter of injury, the yips or whatever that makes an NFL kicker less effective in any particular year... But Forbath has been very consistent in making all the kicks that EVERY NFL kicker is supposed to make (and for the most part they all do, just look at the stats for yourself), but not the ones that keep separating themselves from "JAG" are the ones who consistently have deep kickoffs, stay healthy, and can be trusted over 50 yards.
 
I also think you guys think a bit too much of Moseley... I'd rather have a Lohmiller over a Moseley any day.
 
The league must have thought too much about him, too. He was the mvp of the league and I believe the last time a kicker got it.
 
Right, that's why I suggested taking a guy with experience returning kicks and somebody who has shown himself to be durable.

Banks was never going to last at 150 pounds. Our punter is 60 pounds heavier than that.

Robinson never returned punts before and showed in preseason why he shouldn't.

Just because you are small and fast doesn't mean you are an NFL player.

This team's best returners over the years like Nelms and Mitchell didn't fit that mold.

These guys could turn the corner but they could also break tackles and go over people as well.
 
Fear The Spear said:
We tried that already with Chris Thompson....and Brandon Banks.
And Aldrick was super fast, but he couldn't even get on the field at all, for ST.
Super speed by itself means nothing, if you got no skills
Click to expand...
Well, I thought that went without saying.

So let me try again...

I would like to see a RB/WR with 4.2 speed, who's a natural returner, both elusive and physical, that doesn't fumble, is 6' 4", weighs 245lbs, and can jump over the crossbar from a standing position, who is smart enough to not do that for a TD celebration, as to not draw a penalty, with no drug, gambling, or domestic violence issues, who is willing to play for league minimum for his entire HOF Redskins career.
 
Well, rather than try and sign veterans to stock the ST we need our staff to COACH the younger players we draft and bring in as UDFAs.

Part of the problem has been impatience.

Allen and Snyder wanted to go out and 'fix' the ST last year in one fell swoop in free agency. That failed as veterans either got hurt or were disappointing.

Sometimes you need to fix things one step at a time over a year or even two.
 
MikeSr619 said:
The league must have thought too much about him, too. He was the mvp of the league and I believe the last time a kicker got it.
Click to expand...
Moseley had a great year, and was clutch... I'd still take Lohmiller... Both won Super Bowls, but so did Ali Haji Sheik... :) Forbath is accurate from inside 40, like most of the league. We could use an improvement, but that doesn't mean he isn't a consistent kicker at short range.
 
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