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MMBQ: Diagnosing What Ails RG3

On the first deep ball..why didn't desean lay out? It was close enough to warrant that effort. It was barely out of fingers length. So why doesn't he get criticism for not doing all he could?

Because he can run fast?
 
Miles, there has never been a single QB that has ever had NFL success from the college conference he came from. Not one.

It's no big secret that dozens of QBs have big numbers from that conference and then never make it past a season in the NFL.

They don't run pro-style offenses.

There's first for everything in the world of sports....

I swear if God himself came down and pointed out the obvious problems on this team some would still dismiss it.

Our coach just told you how badly he's playing. Cooley, QB scouts, pundits and many others. But everyone's wrong. It's a huge conspiracy worldwide.

I'm not saying their wrong. In this system there spot on, Robert has a long way to go. Put him in the same system we had in 12, and he's just fine. Seems people can't differentiate between the two. Shanny had it right, play to his strengths while he develops. Ask any of these experts how he would do running the option again, and all you hear is he's not as fast as he was, and I don't buy that. I've seen enough of him running and cutting in warm up's, and he'll still burn 95% of the defensive players out there. His mind has slowed him down, nothing more....

You know what's frustrating to me? All of you geniuses and experts who have it ALL figured out.

Now I know just how burned out with the Skins you are brother.:kick_can:
 
no need. go back two seasons when the offense had no receivers. plenty errant passes. was it the receivers? was it brady? or was it memorex.

and you know full well the real point: over the course of many games Brady has made errant passes...as has Manning...as did marino....etc...etc. Is RGIII in their league? no. but that's not the point. did these deep, deep intellects examine why passes that succeeded in preseason and on into the season did so? if indeed some did...which I think can be established...then it would appear that quantitatively...there is a different argument to be made. these deep, deep intellects were not disposed to examine why...as happened in the MN game and the preseason there were streaks of 10 or more consecutive passes during which the completion ratio was 70% and higher. it's not that the mechanics are off or that RG is not reading events fast enough...it's that their analysis is shallow and transparent.

we all, of course, are entitled to our own opinions.
We weren't talking about "errant passes" brother. The piece was about our QB's lack of comprehension of the three plays in question. Did you even read it?
 
No. And that is the big problem.

He spent his entire college career, and his first year here trying to read if the defender was coming up or not, and making a decision whether to keep it himself or hand it off.

Whether to run inside or bounce it to the outside.

He wasn't learning coverages in the secondary.

When you make the decision to pass even with read option you are then reading coverage. I can point you to multiple plays in College and in the NFL when RGIII gets to his 2nd and 3rd progression.

I think he struggles sometimes more with zone than man but I don't think thats about his ability to read coverage rather than about his hesitation to throw on timing and with anticipation which you need more with zone than throwing against man when you can see your guy is open and let it rip.

I also think that not very many people understand what reading coverages actually means both pre and post snap and that its almost never a case of doing a "full field" read seeing what all 11 defenders or even say the back 7 are doing in coverage. Most often you are diagnosing coverage pre snap, locating the safeties and maybe counting numbers to find your best match ups based on what you have called and picking the side of the field or the area of the field you are going to attack. Then post snap you are reading one or two defenders to confirm your pre snap read and making a decision on where to throw based on those one or two defenders actions. QBs are routinely getting the ball out on 2.5 seconds (RGIII averaged 2.5 seconds a throw in the Texans game by the way) - in that time you only have time to look at one or maybe two defenders and your almost always reading half the field initially.

Also there are three basic types of 'read'. A progression read (is my first guy open, is my second guy open, is my third guy open - throw goes to the first receiver in the progression who is open). A coverage read - based on coverage dictates which area of the field you are attacking. Most NFL offenses though use a hybrid read - a progression based on coverage. You might have two different route combinations on either side of the formation with two different progressions. Based on coverage you pick a side and then work through that progression.
 
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Well, I know that once again we're trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It started when we switched to the 3-4. Personnel be damned!

Now, we have a coach who insists that Robert adapt to his NFL pro set offense...and an offense that relies on intermediate to long passes.

First, we don't have the o-line to afford that length of protection and second, Russel Wilson is not a pro-set qb, either...but, he seems to win pretty regularly because of his potential to take off.

As much as everyone wants to put this 100% on Griffin, I believe Gruden deserves as much of the blame.

So what's the other option?

Let him run like he did in 2012, less healthy than he was, and watch his career end in a brilliant flash?

Is that the other option you seem to want to see?

How do you think he'd look after a third knee surgery?

That's not even an option. So why keep acting like it is?
 
So what's the other option?

Let him run like he did in 2012, less healthy than he was, and watch his career end in a brilliant flash?

Is that the other option you seem to want to see?

How do you think he'd look after a third knee surgery?

That's not even an option. So why keep acting like it is?



I think we've reached a point in our franchise where it's not about changing anymore. We've wanted adaptation and it's given us momentary satisfaction, followed by a revolving door of personnel that does not suit whatever scheme the previous 'regime' had in mind. Look guys, I hate loosing too but maybe we need a coach to come in here and be stubborn. Someone to come in here with a scheme in mind and build a team to fit that scheme. Look at the teams that have been successful. Seattle, Green Bay, New England, New Orleans. Those teams have tenured coaches in place who get THEIR guys. We don't have that anymore. If Gruden is holding Griffin back because he's not willing to play an offense that he doesn't believe will win games for the next 5 years... so be it. Sure we could try to form our offense to Griffin and squeak out a few more games this season but then what? We strive for 7-9 or 6-10 every year? Come on guys. I'm as emotional as everyone else on this board, but to start questioning the HEAD COACH because he doesn't abandon his gameplan because Griffin has struggled in 5 games is absurd.


MCD i'm only quoting you because you posed the question "what's the other option"... this isn't a direct response to your opinion, just a blanket answer to the question.
 
I agree with a lot of that Martin, but I believe there are a few stark contrasts between what he had been reading, and what he's being asked to read now.

In both college and his very first year in the read option here, he was much more concerned about reading the front 7, and trying to decide if they were coming up the field or not. Should he take it himself, or hand it to the RB? Also a lot of focus on the actual handoff/fake handoff. I don't believe he was looking at the deep safety or corners except on specific passing plays. And with so many running plays, he had fewer passing reps to watch how coverage would unfold downfield.

It should also be noted that he faced literally, the worst defenses in all of college football. To what degree his stats should be discounted is up to each individual.

Chris Cooley claims that in his very first year in Washington that he was primarily concerned with only one receiver on a passing play, and if covered, he was to tuck it and run. Personally, I can buy into that for the first 8 games perhaps as a rookie, but believe they asked more of him once he had a few games under his belt. I also saw him go through progressions. Regardless, the progressions and reads he finally did make weren't anything to the level that he's being asked to do now.

Now out of his comfort zone, with so few read options being called, he appears shell-shocked in regard to what he is supposed to be doing. Like a fish out of water at times. It was apparent in the preseason games, and it seems to be a long process that will require some time.
 
McD, he threw 6 picks his first year. He obviously looked at the safety.
 
In both college and his very first year in the read option here, he was much more concerned about reading the front 7, and trying to decide if they were coming up the field or not. Should he take it himself, or hand it to the RB?

In a read option you are reading one defender not the whole front 7. Its normally the edge defender to the side of the run action so the DE in a 4-3 and the OLB in a 3-4 normally. If that defender comes upfield you keep it if he stays home and reads the QB you hand it off.

I don't believe he was looking at the deep safety or corners except on specific passing plays.

You locate the safeties before the snap not after the snap and find the best located safety in terms of him being out of position to defend the pass. That along with counting defenders tells you which side of the field to attack. Post snap you then just need to read one or two defenders to confirm your progression. I say 'just' its clearly easier to say than do :)

And with so many running plays, he had fewer passing reps to watch how coverage would unfold downfield.

Agree with you here. I think the relative lack of drop back passing or passing without the benefit of play action has slowed RGIIIs development. Our passing game in 2012 was pretty simple and was normally high low read off play action with lots of deep crossing routes.

Chris Cooley claims that in his very first year in Washington that he was primarily concerned with only one receiver on a passing play, and if covered, he was to tuck it and run. Personally, I can buy into that for the first 8 games perhaps as a rookie, but believe they asked more of him once he had a few games under his belt. I also saw him go through progressions. Regardless, the progressions and reads he finally did make weren't anything to the level that he's being asked to do now.

Yeah I have a hard time believing he was told one read and tuck it as general instruction. Maybe on some specific play calls. I saw him go through progressions in 2012 and 2013 so they were in the offense.
 
We weren't talking about "errant passes" brother. The piece was about our QB's lack of comprehension of the three plays in question. Did you even read it?

yes I did.

and 3 plays pretty much crystalizes the response I had. the logic, if not the articulation, was to generalize from those 3 plays. inductive logic has its risks. or...let us say...from that one game. I can accept there are problems. I don't have to accept one iota that that game or those 3 plays:

A. Characterize the state of RGIII's play overall (i.e., was what we saw what he does ALWAYS? or was what we saw a departure from patterns in previous games? I happen to believe what we saw against TB was substantively, quantitatively and outcome'i'tatively ( :) ) different from what we have seen previously.

B. Synopsize what we have been seeing this season from him. Even Cooley said that in his analysis.
 
Gibbs I came to the Skins from San Diego. He installed his offense and quickly went 0-5 or 0-6. He had a 'come to Jesus' with Theisman...and, then he changed his offense to suit his personnel.

We went to the SB the next year.

Allen was here when we drafted RG3. He spent the picks. And, now he hires a 'stubborn' coach who won't adapt his scheme to his personnel?

I looked at Gruden's offense in Cinncy the last couple of years. It's based on intermediate to long passes...and he likes scatter backs who can hit home runs.

We don't have the personnel to sustain that kind of offense.

Yeah, he needs to change or we'll be awful for at least two more years. You think the Danny will suck it up that long?

I don't.
Gibbs is a HOF coach, Theismann is a HOF qb, Monk is a HOF Wr. We also had a top defense and a pass rush. We don't have the rest of the team to change schemes and expect a vast change in victories. We lack in talent and will likely change a lot of the roster this offseason. Do we then go after a roster full of people who fit this "adjusted" scheme or come up with a cm scheme and build for it?
 
So what's the other option?

Let him run like he did in 2012, less healthy than he was, and watch his career end in a brilliant flash?

Is that the other option you seem to want to see?

How do you think he'd look after a third knee surgery?

That's not even an option. So why keep acting like it is?

Why isn't an option ? Who has declared him fragile? The press... some fans.... haven't heard it from a single coach or trainer. Or are we just assuming the risk is too great. You already have him out with a major injury without taking a snap. He may never get anything more then a hang nail from hear on out. Yesterday is history, tomorrow a MYSTERY. We know you and others don't want him at QB, so I would think you and others would like to see him let it rip with the chance he has a season ending injury. I'm not saying people want to see him permanently injured, but sidelined for good as a Redskin. Then we can have the flavor of the week... whom ever that may be at the time.
 
Allen was here when we drafted RG3. He spent the picks. And, now he hires a 'stubborn' coach who won't adapt his scheme to his personnel?

I looked at Gruden's offense in Cinncy the last couple of years. It's based on intermediate to long passes...and he likes scatter backs who can hit home runs.

We don't have the personnel to sustain that kind of offense.

tr1, he has adapted the offense to our personnel. Notice all of the short screen plays to Desean to get the ball into his hands? Makes it easy on the QB and O-line.

Notice the absence of a lot of medium range passes that RG3 might have more difficulty completing?

He's already said that he's "dumbed down" the offense to make it as easy as possible for the QB to execute.
 
Lets look again at why Shanahan isn't here anymore? I think that one question sparks a certain train of thought that is in line with what is happening today. Shanahan custom made him an offense to enter the league and ease his transition to NFL ball. RG3 got injured because running your QB excessively doesn't fly in the NFL. Enter those who will argue that Shanahan hurt him and this is all his fault....I don't care about this singular thought at this juncture...

He tried to ease Robert into a pro style offense but after the injury that became impossible. He noticed what everyone else is noticing now, Robert is a long term project at best in regards to a true NFL pro offense... (His fault for paying so dearly for him in the first place) and then bailed with the money while letting us all twist in the wind as to why this all went down. The media and the players all made this a huge saga full of drama and innuendo but its simple to me really, he went all in and then got dealt a handful of crap between RG3's learning curve and the defense, cap and roster problems. He shouldn't have been at the table.

Factors that made HC job of the Redskins impossible:
the power that RG3 had as a superstar from the 2012 season
Dan Snyder's penchant to dote over his best players
the many failures of Hazlett
the ridiculous conversion to the 3-4 defense
the price of the acquisition
the cap penalties long term effects

With the above, Shanahan knew this job would be impossible and bailed. He was at fault for most if not all bigger factors in this and could not ever admit that he made the mistake of a lifetime in trying to change a tigers stripes. I will hate that man forever for what he did to this franchise.
 
They went to the HOF because Gibbs wasn't stubborn. He figured out what he had, and adjusted accordingly. Putting together one of the most potent running attacks in the NFL. Gibbs' offense in San Diego wasn't known for it's rushing style.

But, never mind that. I haven't been too impressed with Gruden so far...except in post game pressers expressing his feelings.

I haven't seen improvement in any facet of the game, though. And, with the explosion of chatter in social media, he doesn't seem to have a handle on the players.

He seems like a nice enough guy, but sooner or later we'll be faced with: 'were his hands tied...forced to use RG3?'...or 'he's unhappy because he's having all the strings pulled for him from up above.'

The culture of this team is like that of a sorority hazing...leaving everyone ashamed and feeling a bit gross.


Oh I agree with that last part 100%. The culture is a problem. What develops that culture? It's putting the players above the coaches. At some point we do need a coach that is going to say, "this is the direction we are going in, and we're going to build our team to fit that direction."

I dont know if Gruden's system is the best out there, or more effective then the next one. What I do see is a team struggling mightily in the talent pool. Like I mentioned, say Gruden 'adapts' his scheme to Griffin and develops a gameplan over the next 6 weeks. That gameplan (if like 2012) would require an undersized O-line that has the ability to stretch the field laterally. That is what the current offensive line was built to do. Almost everyone can agree that we need to address the O-Line, so do we get a zone blocking O-line, ala Shanny, or do we go to more of a people moving O-Line, ala Gruden?

Do you want Gruden to then target and develop players to match this 'adapted' scheme, or do you want to come up with a scheme (which he has) and target and develop players to match that scheme? It's a chicken / egg situation.
 
Why isn't an option ? Who has declared him fragile? The press... some fans.... haven't heard it from a single coach or trainer. Or are we just assuming the risk is too great. You already have him out with a major injury without taking a snap. He may never get anything more then a hang nail from hear on out. Yesterday is history, tomorrow a MYSTERY. We know you and others don't want him at QB, so I would think you and others would like to see him let it rip with the chance he has a season ending injury. I'm not saying people want to see him permanently injured, but sidelined for good as a Redskin. Then we can have the flavor of the week... whom ever that may be at the time.

You haven't heard a coach or trainer call him fragile? Are you really waiting to hear that? Have you ever heard a coach call his own player fragile before? Yeah, no one else has either. That's not even realistic.

2 serious knee injuries, a dislocated ankle and a few concussions would probably suggest that going back to 2012 might not be great for the longevity of his career.

He's also slower now. 2012 is over.....time to let it go unless you want to see him killed.

Also, I do want him at QB for the next ten years for a lot of reasons. The first being that we can use draft picks on other needs. The second because I believe we owe it to him for that Shanny nonsense.
 
Yup..your favorite player lol
 
No, I haven't heard a coach or trainer say he's fragile. I have heard he's 100% healthy. I've also heard it said his knee is stronger then it ever was, and he's just as fast as he was. He's likely the 3rd fastest on the team behind Djax, and Robinson, and that's fast by any standard.
 

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