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RG3 Act 2 begins against the Vikings

Shi no Tenshi said:
At the same time, if you look at things in a vacuum, out of context, then you are coming away with an incorrect assessment as well. In context, he regained the lead multiple times, only to have the defense fail to hold it. You can say he failed, in order to support your argument. Or you can say he succeeded several times but half of the team failed to get it done as well.

Both statements are correct. Which perspective do you want to support? That's the one you choose to run with. Unfortunately, the argument doesn't help anything. The context is that Robert was part of multiple long drives, and that he helped our defense by doing so, and they weren't able to hold against the Vikings' rookie QB.
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Again, off-topic.
When I originally brought up the subject, it was about a pattern and a history, and of a specific aspect of that history.
And everyone just wants to keep focusing on a game that I'm not even talking about.
 
Fear The Spear said:
Again, off-topic.
When I originally brought up the subject, it was about a pattern and a history, and of a specific aspect of that history.
And everyone just wants to keep focusing on a game that I'm not even talking about.
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My post did actually address the topic. It used the most recent example to expound upon my point, yes, but it addressed the fact of looking at that one specific aspect and the fallacy therein.

What do you gain by that knowledge, I guess. I can tell you that during the game, they said he had 4 game winning drives.
 
To answer your specific question, Fear, I'm pretty sure his 76 yard TD run against the Vikings to win it two years ago counts, yes?

So there's one just off the top of my head without thinking about it long.
 
Shi no Tenshi said:
My post did actually address the topic. It used the most recent example to expound upon my point, yes, but it addressed the fact of looking at that one specific aspect and the fallacy therein.
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But it was not relevant.
The statement I originally made, was basically "perhaps RG3 is not a good clutch QB".
Yet all the responses I'm getting, are acting as if I said "RG3 is a horrible QB who is wholly to blame for all of our losses"
Those are 2 completely different statements, and in no way, was I saying the latter.
Any discussion of defense is un-related to the point I was making. It was not about wins and losses.
It was about one aspect of a game.
Yet when I decide the subject is about "clutch play on the last drive", all I'm getting in response is essentially "Haslett is 100% to blame for all of our problems and no-one else is accountable", which is not only false, but totally irrelevant to the subject of what RG3 does when he has the ball, at a specific time in the game. Because Jim Haslett has no impact on that aspect whatsoever, be it good or bad.
RG3 had a good game. I have no problem admitting that. But that's not relevant to the statement I made.
 
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I guess you will need to define what constitutes "clutch" in order to have that debate. What do you consider "clutch" to be?
 
Clutch is when the game on the line, in the most pressurized position. It's when the entire game rests on what you do at a certain time......that time, being your last possession.
And just to be clear, I'm not bashing RG3 here. And I never said he's a bad QB. It only seems that way, because I have to continue reiterating my mis-understood point.
I'm just pointing out an apparent flaw in his game, that's all. Can we discuss, either yes or no, whether he's a good clutch player, without diverting off to other units/players/staff on the team ? Because the subject is not assigning blame here.
 
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Shi no Tenshi said:
At the same time, if you look at things in a vacuum, out of context, then you are coming away with an incorrect assessment as well. In context, he regained the lead multiple times, only to have the defense fail to hold it. You can say he failed, in order to support your argument. Or you can say he succeeded several times but half of the team failed to get it done as well.

Both statements are correct. Which perspective do you want to support? That's the one you choose to run with. Unfortunately, the argument doesn't help anything. The context is that Robert was part of multiple long drives, and that he helped our defense by doing so, and they weren't able to hold against the Vikings' rookie QB.
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There's not near the pressure playing from behind when there's time left if a given drive doesn't result in a score. It's a whole different ballgame when you are driving on the final series when behind. That's when clutch comes into play. Not when you're down by a score with a quarter to play. Tremendous difference. I have no idea if he's clutch or not, but let's be reasonable about what clutch is.
 
Well, like has been said. The tv people put up a graph saying Robert has 4 on his belt.

I'd say he's the only clutch player we have right now. Maybe DJax. Maybe Kia.

Not a soul on defense.
 
Shi no Tenshi said:
At the same time, if you look at things in a vacuum, out of context, then you are coming away with an incorrect assessment as well. In context, he regained the lead multiple times, only to have the defense fail to hold it. You can say he failed, in order to support your argument. Or you can say he succeeded several times but half of the team failed to get it done as well.

Both statements are correct. Which perspective do you want to support? That's the one you choose to run with. Unfortunately, the argument doesn't help anything. The context is that Robert was part of multiple long drives, and that he helped our defense by doing so, and they weren't able to hold against the Vikings' rookie QB.
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Agreed. I don't think you can define clutch just by game winning drives without knowing context. For example, how many drives ended in a missed FG? How many chances does the QB actually have for a game winning drive? If your team stinks, you probably don't have that many chances. I'd rather try to evaluate it on how a QB does in crucial points in the game. Last minutes before half time.....conversion on third downs when the offense needs to answer...conversions on f 4th down....ability to make plays when the original play breaks down. Many of these aren't quantifiable by looking at stat sheets, but I think RGIII has shown he can be clutch. The 2012 campaign showed that and he has shown glimpses of it this year. Last year is a blur to me, but I'm not sure we ever had too many pressure situations last year given the state of our team.

FYI....Pro-Football tracks 4th comebacks and Game winning drives. You can look at a variety of good QBs and see wide difference in those numbers which, to me, mostly points out situations are different for teams and you can't just look at numbers. Some links below to a few QBs. Only thing they have in common is none of them have any 4th quarter comebacks or game winning drives this year.

Tom Brady
Tom Brady's Career 4th quarter comebacks and game-winning drives | Pro-Football-Reference.com

RGIII
Robert Griffin's Career 4th quarter comebacks and game-winning drives | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Andrew Luck
Andrew Luck's Career 4th quarter comebacks and game-winning drives | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Peyton Manning
Peyton Manning's Career 4th quarter comebacks and game-winning drives | Pro-Football-Reference.com
 
Ax said:
Well, like has been said. The tv people put up a graph saying Robert has 4 on his belt.
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I'm guessing that those would be all or mostly in 2012, during that one long streak ?
The problem is, this may be a different QB than we had in 2012.
Also, what's the ratio between game-winning drives, to failed attempts ?
 
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No, they mentioned at least one from last year, too.

And, big deal, as far as what we had in 2012. We can win with the guy we have right now. IMHO.
 
Fear The Spear said:
Clutch is when the game on the line, in the most pressurized position. It's when the entire game rests on what you do at a certain time......that time, being your last possession.
And just to be clear, I'm not bashing RG3 here. And I never said he's a bad QB. It only seems that way, because I have to continue reiterating my mis-understood point.
I'm just pointing out an apparent flaw in his game, that's all. Can we discuss, either yes or no, whether he's a good clutch player, without diverting off to other units/players/staff on the team ? Because the subject is not assigning blame here.
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Absolutely. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to pigeonhole you as an Griffin Hater.

Thing I'm wondering is: is a QB not clutch when they have a receiver drop the game winner? As noted by somebody else, when the kicker misses the FG? Or when the line collapses quickly that they have to fire off a pass that ends up off target?

It's easy to win a game at the end if your protection holds up, or if your receiver makes a miraculous catch (like Eli's do in Super Bowls). How do you differentiate those sorts of things? I just don't see a way to make those measurements cleanly, especially not with the way many of us see the talent level of our team, especially at the line positions.
 
Fear The Spear said:
I'm interested in researching the numbers, to see how he has performed on potential game-winning/tying drives.
My memory seems to recall only failed attempts, and several of them, but cannot remember the last time he successfully engineered a game-winning drive.
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how would anyone prove it (empirically) given how bad this team has been the last two years? there is no "clutch" when the defense, special teams and/or o-line at one time or another are giving it away.
 
Goaldeje said:
To answer your specific question, Fear, I'm pretty sure his 76 yard TD run against the Vikings to win it two years ago counts, yes?

So there's one just off the top of my head without thinking about it long.
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We had a lead when he broke that off.
 
I would still consider that clutch. But evidently I'm a generous grader.
 
Probably. I've been accused of causing the downfall of Western Civilization before, so yeah... I'd fit right in.
 
Goaldeje said:
Probably. I've been accused of causing the downfall of Western Civilization before, so yeah... I'd fit right in.
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hey brotha...leave your politics out of this! though the self-knowledge is appreciated and admired.... :)
 
Shi no Tenshi said:
That isn't a matter of exonerating anybody. It's taking responsibility. Absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, lets your team know you've got their back. It's only a problem if it happens all the time, cause then you are escorting yourself out the door.

I expect the guy in control of the offense to claim responsibility for bad plays like that.
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Good points. It loses its meaning/effectiveness if done too much I guess. I don't recall Cousins doing it at all. But he takes responsibility on the podium, where your supposed to accept it. And so did Griffin. I pretty much like the attitude of all the guys making their "responsible" statements post game, including the coach. That's a positive I see. That's the first step in self correction and team commitments.
 
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