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We Need A Bunch Of Starters. So Who Do We Trade?

Ax said:
I say, we win the next three, then reassess.
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wise...but doesn't change the fundamental problem: lack of talent & difference makers.

with that said...I'm not going to dive back into the arguments on this board 3 yrs ago when Grossman was starting and the theme was whether we should lose out all games to pick as high as possible.

IMO....this team's future sinks or swims for the foreseeable future on how RGIII progresses. EVERYTHING hinges on that.

Mcd5's problem statement is good. the only qualification I would add is that the rebuild will take two off-seasons...not one off-season. with full draft and cap next off-season we can make some big leaps. assuming someone among Long, Moses, Breeland and one of the safety draft picks picks up (perhaps Breeland to safety or D-Hall) the team can be competitive next season.

- o-line first; at least 3 new starters needed IMO; we'll get two and that will be significant

- secondary next

- d-line next..especially if Rak goes and Murphy takes over. I think Murphy will be serviceable but the pass pressure will drop off once he becomes a regular. this will impact Kerrigan as he will get more doubles. we're gonna need more pressure from the center of the d-line.

which way to go with the first pick? my vote: if there is an outstanding, big CB...pull the trigger on him. otherwise, trade down, go o-line...and expect the secondary to be a two year project.
 
SilentThreat said:
IF, and that's a HUGE IF it's even within the rules of the CBA to move Rak, I honestly would support trading him and eating the remainder of the franchise tag. I'm with you. Talent evaluation and decision making is a struggle we've had and this could be one of those moves that in 2015 makes more sense. If the F.O. has no plans on re-signing Rak, letting him walk is just another chapter of the "no return on investment" soap opera we have all been so frustrated with. Get something for someone we spent a 1st round pick on for a change. Get value for talent.


My comment was a pure hypothetical. If i had my 'druthers' your second point of finding a competent defensive coaching staff would be addressed, and we would bring someone in who would turn Orakpo into a beast. Problem is I dont think Rak wants to sign here, and especially doesn't want to sign here for less then top 5 LB money (which he does not deserve). All of my points were based on the idea that he's going to walk away and we literally see him go somewhere for NOTHING.

As far as 3 goes.. That's part of it. If you can turn a 'talented' LB in, essentially, the last year of his contract into an additional draft pick, then we need to try that. Not to mention if we can make it happen, then WE have part of the decision making process as to where he lands. My biggest fear is we let him go (which i support) and he signs with the Giants, turning into a pro-bowl pass rusher.
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Yeah well thats the price you pay when you draft players and let their contract demands grow out of reason without addressing it early. Oh that and not having depth behind them to use as leverage. He should have been locked up long term on a fair deal or traded last year or the year before. Not here... instead of constantly stoking the personnel fire, we are in full on blow torch mode each and every freaking year. All I can think is that the powers that be realized that both he and Kerrigan could most likely convert to a 4-3 DEs easily and they kept them both to make this change... WHEN? WHY NOT? I have no freaking idea.

The 3-4 is garbage and we are missing vital players that every other 3-4 defense in the league is always fighting over. I'm oh so over it.
 
SilentThreat said:
As far as 3 goes.. That's part of it. If you can turn a 'talented' LB in, essentially, the last year of his contract into an additional draft pick, then we need to try that. Not to mention if we can make it happen, then WE have part of the decision making process as to where he lands. My biggest fear is we let him go (which i support) and he signs with the Giants, turning into a pro-bowl pass rusher.
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not an unlikely scenario. the pattern in the NFL lately has been for quality DEs/pass rushers (I know...Rak is an OLB; but basically used as a pass rusher) expecting big bucks to simply be let go. very few trades if memory serves. anyone recall if the Houston DE was traded to Buffalo? I can't remember.

a lot hinges on how the team evaluates Murphy. no idea where that falls right now beyond my own observations. either way...the team is gonna have to make a choice: go all out on the secondary or the d-line. let me rephrase that: I would focus on making one of those units stellar and work the other one the following off-season.
 
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Dead Money said:
Yeah well thats the price you pay when you draft players and let their contract demands grow out of reason without addressing it early. Oh that and not having depth behind them to use as leverage. He should have been locked up long term on a fair deal or traded last year or the year before. Not here... instead of constantly stoking the personnel fire, we are in full on blow torch mode each and every freaking year. All I can think is that the powers that be realized that both he and Kerrigan could most likely convert to a 4-3 DEs easily and they kept them both to make this change... WHEN? WHY NOT? I have no freaking idea.

The 3-4 is garbage and we are missing vital players that every other 3-4 defense in the league is always fighting over. I'm oh so over it.
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don't forget the team was severely constrained for two years by the cap penalty! I like your logic. I just think the we were screwed regardless - the maneuvering room wasn't there.
 
fansince62 said:
wise...but doesn't change the fundamental problem: lack of talent & difference makers.
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Well, my main objective, and reason for participating in such a ridiculously speculative game of what if, that will change weekly, until such time when this conversation can be based on the facts of the day, is to be, wise.

As usual, I surpassed expectation. :)

But you are correct, a healthy reemergence of Robert, circa 2012, is the most immediate, monumentally positive impact possible for this franchise.

The sooner, the better.
 
so...where do we invest our trust?

right now? for me? without a lot of reason...I'm banking on Gruden thinkin "F this. I'm getting what I know I need to win...NOW."
 
Ax said:
Well, my main objective, and reason for participating in such a ridiculously speculative game of what if, that will change weekly, until such time when this conversation can be based on the facts of the day, is to be, wise.

As usual, I surpassed expectation. :)

But you are correct, a healthy reemergence of Robert, circa 2012, is the most immediate, monumentally positive impact possible for this franchise.

The sooner, the better.
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you da man! always crack me up...always around the center of the issue...even when we disagree!

and yup...I'm with you 1000%: RGIII is and has been the key. I haven't always been onboard with his progress...but he is our most important asset. HE HAS TO MAKE A BIG LEAP - AND SOON.
 
Dead Money said:
Yeah well thats the price you pay when you draft players and let their contract demands grow out of reason without addressing it early. Oh that and not having depth behind them to use as leverage. He should have been locked up long term on a fair deal or traded last year or the year before. Not here... instead of constantly stoking the personnel fire, we are in full on blow torch mode each and every freaking year. All I can think is that the powers that be realized that both he and Kerrigan could most likely convert to a 4-3 DEs easily and they kept them both to make this change... WHEN? WHY NOT? I have no freaking idea.

The 3-4 is garbage and we are missing vital players that every other 3-4 defense in the league is always fighting over. I'm oh so over it.
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Yes but this staff cant be held responsible for previous shortcomings. If, and again a big IF (simply cuz we dont TRULY know, we just hear rumors) Shanahan was calling all the shots, then the responsibility has to walk out the door with him... and that includes the re-signing (or lack there of) of Orakpo.
 
The most overlooked fact going, ST.

We have no way of knowing the totality of who called what shots, and when. All we know for sure is, starting this season, the buck stops at Allen's desk. 3 years is what he gets, with me. That's enough time to correct a lot, but not all, of the mistakes that might not have been his. and enough time to start seeing signs that things, FO wise, are indeed improving.
 
Ax said:
The most overlooked fact going, ST.

We have no way of knowing the totality of who called what shots, and when. All we know for sure is, starting this season, the buck stops at Allen's desk. 3 years is what he gets, with me. That's enough time to correct a lot, but not all, of the mistakes that might not have been his. and enough time to start seeing signs that things, FO wise, are indeed improving.
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I just noticed your sig... John Patrick Mason is a hero.



I'm with you but things could change to shorten that tenure.
 
tr1 said:
He's on his fifth year with the organization. I guess he was sitting on his hands the first four?
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Or he was handcuffed by an owner who agreed to giving his coach complete control (which is a WHOLE different issue).
 
So we want more draft picks in place of proven performers? (Not Orakpo.)

So that we can, what, hope to make a mistake in the draft and select a difference maker or two?

No thanks. I'll keep the proven talent that we have.
 
tr1 said:
You're right...it could be either situation. Must be a great gig to rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars to sit on your hands and not do what you were hired to do.

That Danny is good at hiring folks to be his friend.

BTW, I actually think Bruce has his fingerprints on a lot of what's gone wrong with this organization in the last five years, but I guess will never know until the book comes out.
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But i believe he was hired to be numbers guy, not a football guy, from day 1. That doesn't mean he's going to excel, or even be the right fit here as a football guy. I hope it works out, but if he proves to be a liability, he's as expendable as anybody. Im not disputing that this team is in a bad place right now and that the history of the franchise has been dark. I'm not even willing to say that I can truly see better times in the immediate future. What I can say is that I want Allen and Co. to have an opportunity to do what they need to do. That a lot of the shortcomings of the past (and the parties responsible) are no longer here anymore. If Allen's fingerprint is on a lot of the negatives, it's going to show itself, but I'm not willing to write him off until he gives me a reason. Gruden is (and was) the hire a lot of us wanted around here. We also wanted to stop bringing in re-treads (see both Gruden AND McVay), and all of these elements are going to take time to develop.
 
Chris said:
So we want more draft picks in place of proven performers? (Not Orakpo.)

So that we can, what, hope to make a mistake in the draft and select a difference maker or two?

No thanks. I'll keep the proven talent that we have.
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because 4-18 is so outstanding?

no thanks...I have all the proof I need the talent on hand isn't up to the challenge.
 
tr1 said:
As much as I'd like to see this run, I believe you've had two too many bloody marys this morning.

:)
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It's possible, until it's not.

And they're called Red Eyes. Beer and tomato juice.

tr1 said:
He's on his fifth year with the organization. I guess he was sitting on his hands the first four?
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Well, we can all believe what we want. Problem is, we can't prove it. Who did what, when, how, etc...

Allen gave us the official starting point, this season. There can be no other place to point the finger of blame, starting then. There's no boogey man to blame anymore. Every move made is Allen's responsibility. I'm willing to hold judgment, unless, and until, it's proven that he is to blame for the previous years he was on the payroll, but not in charge.

If future evidence proves he's been part of the problem all along, you can smear poo poo on pictures of him, and we'll all collectively point to the shit on his face.

Until then...
 
The point is that we don't have enough talent. So you want to trade what talent we do have for draft picks? Which are always a crapshoot, and even more so when we spend them?

No, thanks.
 
Chris said:
The point is that we don't have enough talent. So you want to trade what talent we do have for draft picks? Which are always a crapshoot, and even more so when we spend them?

No, thanks.
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can't argue your point. I have used that argument in the past to support keeping Rak. guess my feeling is that there is no talent on this team that is must keep. RGIII and Trent I guess. everyone else? nope.

of course, what this is really about is whether a major overhaul is needed. ordinarily I would say no. we go through this every off-season...."we have a good base. all we need is a good draft or two." perhaps it really does need to be blown up. I'm tired of the same results for 20+ years.
 
fansince62 said:
can't argue your point. I have used that argument in the past to support keeping Rak. guess my feeling is that there is no talent on this team that is must keep. RGIII and Trent I guess. everyone else? nope.

of course, what this is really about is whether a major overhaul is needed. ordinarily I would say no. we go through this every off-season...."we have a good base. all we need is a good draft or two." perhaps it really does need to be blown up. I'm tired of the same results for 20+ years.
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I guess it really is a moot point anyway. Outside of Williams, Griffin, Reed, Kerrigan, and Jackson there probably isn't anyone that could garner more than a small fry and a vanilla shake.

If only we could trade with ourselves.
 
Waiting on Robert to return to 2012 form.....

When someone says that, why is it that I feel like Linus sitting in the pumpkin patch?
 
Griffin looked very good prior to getting hurt.
 
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