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RG may yet suceed, but were the firsts wasted?

Griffin has an enormous uphill battle ahead of him. But I've yet to hear a single person mention the cost of keeping him.
If you do intend to go forward with him, you absolutely need a great backup. With his injury history, you had better have someone great behind him, or just concede any future season in which he gets injured again.
It's no longer comparing Kirk vs. RG3. It's now Kirk vs. RG3 plus his backup.
If RG3 is the choice, then get ready to spend another high draft choice on his insurance plan. Because Kirk will be gone. A backup vet is unlikely to ever win us a SB.
At this time, I don't see how that's going to work.
 
Maybe the question then is does RG have to return to the 2012 form and play that type of game for the picks to be worth it? 3 firsts were definitely not worth one division winning season, no matter how good it felt. I think there are two components to the picks being worth it. One is being productive early, the other is becoming a truly dominant elite QB. Can he be elite in the pocket? Jury is still out on that. Do many believe that the injuries are an aberration and not the norm and he can play the 2012 Option game? My question has nothing to do with Kirks' play. That has to play out longer term to have any relevance. My question arises from RG's inability to stay healthy, his lack of pocket skills, and the now delayed development.
 
tr1 said:
Well, he's the only qb who has taken us to a playoff since 2005.

When we get another qb to get us to the promised land, you should be careful about what you say about the guy. He's a Redskin, he's a proven winner, and he's barely wet his feet in the league.
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Careful what I say about what guy? I say Robert is over rated and has been since his days at Baylor. Why should I shy from that? I maintain it to this day and too many of you cling to 2012 as if it were 1992 or 1987 or 1982. We won a poor division at 10-6. It wasn't like he won the Super Bowl. Sure it was exciting, but I am not going to give him a break since the last 20 months since he beat the Cowturds on Sunday Night to win the division has been a friggin freak show.
 
Boone said:
What I've heard from Brian (and he has been the most consistent poster on Griffin agree with him or not) was that we massively overpaid for Griffin and that the style of offense he plays (and that makes him special) is unsustainable at the NFL level. I think it's too early to say he's correct on that front, but i can understand his position. Brian has also been pretty critical of Griffin's overall tendency to be the constant center of attention, and I can't really beat on him there as I've also not been a fan of some of those tendencies.

I don't think we overpaid for him - we are lucky to have Cousins - but Griffin is the first true franchise quarterback we have had in 20 years and it took what it took to get him. He's already lead us to an NFC East Championship - and if he's able to overcome the injury bug, he may still bring us numerous playoff appearances. I still believe in the guy.
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I don't think for one minute we were/are lucky to have Cousins. No one on here has said (at least I don't remember reading it), why we drafted Cousins. I was ecstatic at the move. It was brilliant. Putting all the chips into the middle of the table and bank on one guy, RGIII was an enormous risk, and the front office and coach knew this. For them, it was a no brainer to select Cousins when he was available. That's called hedging your bet, and guess what.....it has paid off in spades. It was by design in the event something happened to Robert, and indeed it did. There was no luck at all in drafting Cousins. sorry I don't buy that. Now did they know he would be lights out? Of course not, no one knew Gruden was coming to coach him. But that's what hedging is all about, its another gamble and keeps you from losing everything when you put all your eggs in one basket. I continue to be amazed how well he is suited to Gruden's game. Now that part may be the stroke of luck you speak of.
 
I'm loyal, but also realistic from a team management/cap hit view. The big picture that no one seems to have thought about, or wants to acknowledge.

If you star Vick as your QB, you need a great backup. If you want Jordan Reed as your TE, the same. If you want RG3, you had better be extremely confident about the guy on the bench. That is, if you really want to go all the way.
 
McD5 said:
Griffin has an enormous uphill battle ahead of him. But I've yet to hear a single person mention the cost of keeping him.
If you do intend to go forward with him, you absolutely need a great backup. With his injury history, you had better have someone great behind him, or just concede any future season in which he gets injured again.
It's no longer comparing Kirk vs. RG3. It's now Kirk vs. RG3 plus his backup.
If RG3 is the choice, then get ready to spend another high draft choice on his insurance plan. Because Kirk will be gone. A backup vet is unlikely to ever win us a SB.
At this time, I don't see how that's going to work.
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We're the anomaly right now, not the NFL norm. The number of times an NFL franchise has had a backup of the quality of a Kirk Cousins? It's almost unheard of. Returning to a situation where somehow only having one great QB on our roster would be returning to normalcy, not some concerning 'quandary'. I also think that part of your premise is an implication that Griffin is brittle and future season-ending injuries are inevitable. I think that's a big assumption. He blew out his knee at the end of 2012 - and never missed a game. It happens. He suffered what can only be described as a freak injury this season. Could those injuries make him more susceptible to future injuries? It's possible. It's also possible he'll go 7 or 8 seasons without another major injury. He clearly has some understanding that he can't continue to play recklessly, and that's good, but the truth is that neither injury he's had was the result of 'reckless' play although people state that as a fact over and over again. I like Cousins - he looks great right now. But he hasn't accomplished a damn thing - yet. He may well be that 'backup vet' you are referencing, vs. a QB with the kind of potential Griffin has.

We can all speculate all we want, but I'm telling you guys, if you think this team has even considered, for even a second, turning the page on Griffin, you are really living in fantasy land in my opinion.
 
tr1 said:
Yeah, yeah...hind sight is 20-20.
No one drafts a guy expecting him to be brittle. If you do, you don't deserve to be in the front office.
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I'm looking forward. The future cost of keeping him.
 
Boone said:
You've also claimed Jameis Winston was the second coming and would rewrite NFL quarterbacking. How's that truth looking right now Brian?

Look - your concerns have always been valid ones. I've never said they weren't. But you are overstating your case in my opinion. For example - prior to the ankle injury Griffin looked every bit as lightning fast, elusive, and dangerous as he did in 2012. But you describe him as if he's a shell of his former self. I don't think that's fair or accurate.

He definitely has to change his game. I have no doubt he could light up the field just like he did in 2012 if we used him that way - but he can't survive that kind of offense, I think we all agree on that. He has to change his game, and he appeared to be making strides in that direction when the latest injury occurred.

I don't know what the ending to his story will be. You are pretty defiant in indicating you do. And you don't know any more than any of us do. You may turn out to be 100% correct. But I prefer to see what happens, because you may also be proven horribly wrong. I hope so :)
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Haha! Don't mistake me for McD5...I like Jameis, but 2nd coming he is not. That kid's going to hit a brick wall. I never said Jamies was anything more than a dynamic college QB who took my team to a National Championship.

As for Robert as fast or elusive as 2012...did you watch the Texans game? He could not avoid the Texns defense and could not outrun lineman. That one run against tha Jags on the first play of the game was wide open, that's why he was able to get 12 yards. The 2012 version of Robert might have churned off 30 or a TD. Look, one of the things I can see at games you may not be able to see as easily on TV is when defenders close in on a player. When I was at games in 2012, the defenders never really had a chance to close in on him. All year last year, and into the pre-season this year, they were. He is nowhere near as quick/fast or elusive as he was in 2012.

I do not doubt my assertion. Robert Griffin will never win a Super Bowl for us. I stand by that assertion and you know I will admit if I am wrong, but I'm not. I would bet the house on it.
 
micks113 said:
I don't think for one minute we were/are lucky to have Cousins.
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You misunderstand my use of 'lucky' - I wasn't implying we blindly drafted him having no idea what he was. I'm not sure I agree with you that we drafted him as 'insurance', I think the scouts loved him and that we couldn't believe he was there where we got him. He was an irresistable value there and we snatched him up. I think it's quite possible the original plan was to dangle him to other QB-needy teams who were also in love with him, but the more we saw of him, the more we decided to keep him in the fold.
 
Boone said:
We're the anomaly right now, not the NFL norm. The number of times an NFL franchise has had a backup of the quality of a Kirk Cousins? It's almost unheard of. Returning to a situation where somehow only having one great QB on our roster would be returning to normalcy, not some concerning 'quandary'. I also think that part of your premise is an implication that Griffin is brittle and future season-ending injuries are inevitable. I think that's a big assumption. He blew out his knee at the end of 2012 - and never missed a game. It happens. He suffered what can only be described as a freak injury this season. Could those injuries make him more susceptible to future injuries? It's possible. It's also possible he'll go 7 or 8 seasons without another major injury. He clearly has some understanding that he can't continue to play recklessly, and that's good, but the truth is that neither injury he's had was the result of 'reckless' play although people state that as a fact over and over again. I like Cousins - he looks great right now. But he hasn't accomplished a damn thing - yet. He may well be that 'backup vet' you are referencing, vs. a QB with the kind of potential Griffin has.

We can all speculate all we want, but I'm telling you guys, if you think this team has even considered, for even a second, turning the page on Griffin, you are really living in fantasy land in my opinion.
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We're three seasons in, and he hasn't been healthy enough to finish one. Is it likely that all of that's about to change? Possible? Sure. But likely?

Who wants to roll the dice on that? And who wants to roll the dice on Jordan Reed suddenly getting healthy for the next five seasons?
 
Elephant said:
Haha! Don't mistake me for McD5...I like Jameis, but 2nd coming he is not. That kid's going to hit a brick wall. I never said Jamies was anything more than a dynamic college QB who took my team to a National Championship.
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You said a LOT more than that, but I'm not trying to make a Federal case out of it.

In the Texans game, he was trying to do what his coaches have been preaching for him to do, stay in the pocket and give plays time to develop before taking off. Griffin is still blazing fast. Do I have to pull training camp 40 times for you?

And is that the bar - he has to win Super Bowls for us - if that's the case, he'll join every Redskins QB since 1991 in failure - except he's already surpassed all of them by taking us to an NFC Championship. Have you already decided in year 3 (one full year being essentially rehab in progress) that he's a completed final product and failure at QB? Were you a finished product at age 24?

And to be fair, no one here ever doubts their assertions - until they are proven dead wrong. And even then :)
 
Boone said:
...but the truth is that neither injury he's had was the result of 'reckless' play although people state that as a fact over and over again.
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Come on John, this could not be further from the truth. The Ngata hit was as reckless as you get. He was trying to get an extra couple of yards instead of simply sliding and getting up to fight on. He was fighting for the extra yards and went head first into 3 defenders.

Robert Griffin III injury - NFL Videos

On the play last week against the Jags, he was running off the edge at full steam when he tried to cut...when his ankle gave out. It was his all out effort and attempt to cut that at full speed. That is reckless. Good QB's throw the ball away to fight another day, they don't try to get every single yard every single play when things break down around them. robert doesn't understand that and both injuries were caused by this inability to know when to fold the hand.

Boone said:
We can all speculate all we want, but I'm telling you guys, if you think this team has even considered, for even a second, turning the page on Griffin, you are really living in fantasy land in my opinion.
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I don't think the team is ready to give up yet...I just know I am. Aren't you glad I am not the GM?
 
McD5 said:
We're three seasons in, and he hasn't been healthy enough to finish one. Is it likely that all of that's about to change? Possible? Sure. But likely?

Who wants to roll the dice on that? And who wants to roll the dice on Jordan Reed suddenly getting healthy for the next five seasons?
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Season 1 - he missed a couple games. Want me to post the list of QBs who missed games last season? Are they all brittle, and doomed to future injury?
Season 2 - he didn't miss a snap due to injury - he got benched by his insecure, petty, petulant effing ego-trip of a coach. He played the entire season on a knee that was nowhere near 100% - and that makes him brittle?
Season 3 - suffered a freak injury (and those are Gruden's words, not mine) - nothing to do with being 'brittle'.

Let's see - potential all-star franchise QB vs. fears he won't be durable enough to last? I think I'll roll the dice, yeah :) And so will this front office and coaching staff so all the fan anxiety won't much matter.

I don't know about Reed - jury is still out. But I'm sure as hell not giving up on him for Logan Paulsen.
 
Tried to cut? He was running at the same angle when he jumped to throw the ball. The linebacker was closing on him. He wasn't cutting..He was planting.
 
Boone said:
You said a LOT more than that, but I'm not trying to make a Federal case out of it.

In the Texans game, he was trying to do what his coaches have been preaching for him to do, stay in the pocket and give plays time to develop before taking off. Griffin is still blazing fast. Do I have to pull training camp 40 times for you?

And is that the bar - he has to win Super Bowls for us - if that's the case, he'll join every Redskins QB since 1991 in failure - except he's already surpassed all of them by taking us to an NFC Championship. Have you already decided in year 3 (one full year being essentially rehab in progress) that he's a completed final product and failure at QB? Were you a finished product at age 24?

And to be fair, no one here ever doubts their assertions - until they are proven dead wrong. And even then :)
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No, but I also did not have a very short window to succeed in my career either.

NFC Championship? When did Robert take us there? He won a division that was weak. The only reason he was remotely successful in his rookie year was because he ran for 800 yards. If your QB is running for 800 yards in the NFL, there is something wrong.

In 3 years I've seen enough; he is injury prone, he does not grasp the offense our new head coach runs, he is a drama queen and he is sitting on the sideline because he does not know when to give up and fight another day.
 
MikeSr619 said:
Tried to cut? He was running at the same angle when he jumped to throw the ball. The linebacker was closing on him. He wasn't cutting..He was planting.
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Forgive me Mike ...cut/plant...same thing. He tried to put too much pressure on his ankle at full speed because he was trying to make something out of nothing. It wasn't so much how he was injured as why...he tried too hard to gain more than was there. Sure the completion was great...but at what expense?
 
tr1 said:
You discount what he did in 2012 as though anyone could have come in as rookie a performed as he did.

The ENTIRE fanbase was so pumped up for 2013. We were expecting great things, but the injury was too severe and the coaches were knuckle heads.

Like I said, who do we have who is going to get us into the playoffs? KC? I hope so, but I'm as inclined as you are to dismiss RG3 to dismiss KC as our savior.

You may not have noticed, but he seems to lose concentration at crucial times. He reminds me a bit of Romo.
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Robert loses concentration at certain times too. And because of it...he is on the sidelines for the majority of this season.

Kirk may not be the ultimate answer...but Robert isn't either.
 
Elephant said:
Forgive me Mike ...cut/plant...same thing. He tried to put too much pressure on his ankle at full speed because he was trying to make something out of nothing. It wasn't so much how he was injured as why...he tried too hard to gain more than was there. Sure the completion was great...but at what expense?
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With all your vision of everything can you really say you saw that happening with him jumping over a linebacker to the side?

He didn't put too much pressure, it was a freak accident and not reckless abandon. He was scrambling and hit the receiver even after hurting himself.

As much as I think you have valid points you say things like "drama queen" and make it seem like it's personal. It makes it hard to think you take a look at him without having a bias.
 
Elephant said:
No, but I also did not have a very short window to succeed in my career either.

NFC Championship? When did Robert take us there? He won a division that was weak. The only reason he was remotely successful in his rookie year was because he ran for 800 yards. If your QB is running for 800 yards in the NFL, there is something wrong.

In 3 years I've seen enough; he is injury prone, he does not grasp the offense our new head coach runs, he is a drama queen and he is sitting on the sideline because he does not know when to give up and fight another day.
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You know I meant NFC East Championship - you dick! :)

I think you would be better off just cutting to the chase and admitting you don't like the guy. When you diminish his rookie accomplishments like that and use terms like 'the only reason' - that's just not true. The guy was accurate as hell and made very few mistakes (compare his INT % his rookie year with that of DemiGod Andrew Luck). He doesn't grasp the offense? You mean the brand new offense he's had all of, what 3-4 months to learn? Oh my God - how could that happen!!! He is young and still learning. He has a lot of great qualities. I think you are incredibly harsh on the kid.

I have criticized him as much as anyone (other than maybe you!). But I do ultimately believe he can be an incredible QB. It's okay just to say that you'd rather he not be our QB and that you don't like him. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Hey Brian, I do want to say one final thing - and that's that I admire your ability to stick to your guns and calmly state your case even when it is a minority position. Seriously - that's the way you do it - and although I don't agree I think you do a great job of not taking it personally. :cheers:

If you turn out to be right, we'll sadly have to proclaim you smarter than all the rest of us - so that's the silver lining.
 
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