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Redskins Relieve Mike Shanahan of Duties

Really? You truly believe that losing 36 million in cap room over two seasons had no effect on this roster?

Then let's just sit free agency out this Spring and see what the new staff can do with what's here.

36 million spent wisely is half a defense..or offense.

It's amazing to see how alot of Skins fans so easily brush the loss of 36 million under the rug........

Because it's not about 36 Million.
It's about 18 Million.
And it's about two seasons, it was equally split between, with two contrasting results each of those seasons.
The other half of it was a season we won the division.
Why didn't the exact same penalty make us go 3-13 last year ? Instead of winning the division, especially considering we had a rookie QB and rookie RB ?
We won the division last year despite Shanahan, not because of his coaching.
It's his coaching that had a lot to do with our dismal season this year, namely not taking out RG3 in the Seattle game.
 
Because it's not about 36 Million.
It's about 18 Million.
And it's about two seasons, it was split between, with 2 contrasting results each of those seasons.
The other half of it was a season we won the division.
Why didn't the exact same penalty make us go 3-13 last year ? Instead of winning the division, especially considering we had a rookie QB and rookie RB ?
We won the division last year despite Shanahan, not because of his coaching.
It's his coaching that had a lot to do with our dismal season this year, namely not taking out RG3 in the Seattle game.

I do not believe that with the state of Chester's knees,Polumbus' incompetence in pass pro and the mess our secondary and pass rush were in(Kerrigan playing on a bum knee since week 3), that we were doing anything meaningful with a healthy RG3.

Especially with Hank and Reed going down to injury to basically wipe out most of our passing weapons.

IMO, thinking we repeat with a healthy RG3, with all the new holes that the cap penalty exposed further, was nothing but folly.
 
A few of these draft picks turning out and making a contribution would have made a huge difference.

LeRibeus, Gettis, Compton on the OL; Jarvis Jenkins at DE; Brandon Jenkins at LB; Aldrick Robinson at WR, etc.

Then you add in the 2, 3, and 4 picks given up in 2010 for aging veterans McNabb and Brown.

A solid GM makes these picks work out and avoids overpaying for Atogwe, Morgan, and Fred Davis.
 
well now we will find if allen is a football GM or not. I hope he is. Shanny can pound sand, we are not better off today than we were 4 years ago, BUT if we can get a good open minded coach, I think we can turn it around pretty fast. this is one time im really not happy to have been right.
 
We have better skill players.

But Shanahan was woefully deficient in drafting and developing talent on the OL and DL.

Reminds me a bit of 1981 when Gibbs came in and had Theismann, Riggins and Monk but no line and no depth on defense.
 
Portis, Sapp, and LT on NFLN had a discussion on their show today about how RG3 decided that he was coming back for Game 1 months ahead of time and turned it into basically a Brett Farvish offseason sideshow and Shanahan should have told him to sit down and start Cousins instead but then Portis said that maybe Shanahan felt he had to start him because RG3 was hanging out with Snyder. Then they talked about how RG3 was obviously not 100% in game 1 and why wasn't Alfred Morris ran 30 times a game to get RG3 time to get back into running the offense.

So I guess what some of us thought at the beginning of the season wasn't too far off base from what actual former players were thinking haha.
 
We have better skill players.

But Shanahan was woefully deficient in drafting and developing talent on the OL and DL.

Reminds me a bit of 1981 when Gibbs came in and had Theismann, Riggins and Monk but no line and no depth on defense.

We can only hope that three Super Bowl wins are to follow again!
 
well now we will find if allen is a football GM or not. I hope he is. Shanny can pound sand, we are not better off today than we were 4 years ago, BUT if we can get a good open minded coach, I think we can turn it around pretty fast. this is one time im really not happy to have been right.

I hope I'm wrong but my money's on "not a football GM". Aside from my love of the Skins I'm also a Bucs fan and I distinctly remember Allen's stint as GM there as a miserable failure. Aside from that I have to wonder how much Snyder will be in Allen's ear. If that happens we're basically back to Snyderatto 2.0.

Again, I hope I'm wrong but I'm not optimistic about this arrangement.
 
Brown has credibility around the NFL as a personnel guy.

What Bruce was saying yesterday is that Shanahan went with his own instincts and didn't listen to the people that do personnel 24/7 in the organization.

Mike was arrogant enough to think a few minutes of tape and a bio was enough to overrule months of observation and formal evaluation.
 
Brown has credibility around the NFL as a personnel guy.

What Bruce was saying yesterday is that Shanahan went with his own instincts and didn't listen to the people that do personnel 24/7 in the organization.

Mike was arrogant enough to think a few minutes of tape and a bio was enough to overrule months of observation and formal evaluation.

A little birdie said yesterday that Mike had his own, outside sources he was using. There were people in the organization that couldn't figure out why he was getting certain people.
 
Yep, well those outside sources didn't do that great of a job.

Three double digit losses in four years.

In four years Gibbs had already taken the team to two Super Bowls.

The record in 1980 was 6-10, much the same as Zornie.
 
well now we will find if allen is a football GM or not. I hope he is. Shanny can pound sand, we are not better off today than we were 4 years ago, BUT if we can get a good open minded coach, I think we can turn it around pretty fast. this is one time im really not happy to have been right.

this team was in shambles four years ago post Zorn. how does one consistently argue that we are not better off but that we can turn it around pretty fast? the first two years of Shanahan were spent un-eff'ing the mess Snyderatto created with cap management, draft picks and the roster....not to mention simply running professional practices.
 
This team made a number of personnel mistakes in 2010 and 2011 that contributed to the hard hit of the cap penalty.

Instead of going younger we continued to trade for and sign older players.

That meant no depth come 2012 and 2013.

And for what? 6 and 5 win seasons?

Shanahan needed to rebuild from scratch but realized it too late.
 
this team was in shambles four years ago post Zorn. how does one consistently argue that we are not better off but that we can turn it around pretty fast? the first two years of Shanahan were spent un-eff'ing the mess Snyderatto created with cap management, draft picks and the roster....not to mention simply running professional practices.

While making some dumb mistakes himself trying to "fix" things. Come on Al, the only thing that is better is the cap situation. And to be honest, how much of the penalty saved us from spending ridiculous contracts the last 2 years? I mean we were handed a big pile of **** 2 days before Free Agency and still wasted millions on Josh Morgan and Fred Davis...that is 7 million over 2 years for Davis and 8 million over 2 years for Morgan! Not to mention the cap hit the Jamaal Brown extension cost us...that's another 3.3 million for 2013 alone. In the month after the cap hit in 2012, we extended Jamaal Brown's contract, signed Fred Davis with franchise tag and signed Josh Morgan.

Talk about great management of resources!

I am afraid to see what kind of contracts would have been written if the cap hadn't hit us. We got Garcon...whom we all wanted, but we also sought Eddie Royal, after the Gracon and Morgan signings.

I am not happy about the cap hit, but I gotta say I am happy Mike Shanahan will not be spending that money...so I guess youy could say we are better off today!
 
While making some dumb mistakes himself trying to "fix" things. Come on Al, the only thing that is better is the cap situation. And to be honest, how much of the penalty saved us from spending ridiculous contracts the last 2 years? I mean we were handed a big pile of **** 2 days before Free Agency and still wasted millions on Josh Morgan and Fred Davis...that is 7 million over 2 years for Davis and 8 million over 2 years for Morgan! Not to mention the cap hit the Jamaal Brown extension cost us...that's another 3.3 million for 2013 alone. In the month after the cap hit in 2012, we extended Jamaal Brown's contract, signed Fred Davis with franchise tag and signed Josh Morgan.

Talk about great management of resources!

I am afraid to see what kind of contracts would have been written if the cap hadn't hit us. We got Garcon...whom we all wanted, but we also sought Eddie Royal, after the Gracon and Morgan signings.

I am not happy about the cap hit, but I gotta say I am happy Mike Shanahan will not be spending that money...so I guess youy could say we are better off today!

matter of scale. the stuff you refer to pales in comparison to $36 mil cap hit. couple other thoughts:

- if you recall...Morgan wasn't who they were after. they had to settle cuz they were strapped for cash

- they signed Davis cuz they had him by the short ones price wise and they had no idea on how their draft picks would pan out. the reality is that Davis paired up quite well with RGIII. there was an upside. we still don't know what went on behind the scenes here. can't have it both ways - it's all Shanahan's ego/leadership vice it's a loser player.

- sure Shanahan made mistakes. but if you think signing RGIII, Morris, Reed, Garcon, Kerrigan, Amersen, Young and several others isn't progress over the past...then there is no room for discussion. secondly, you and others can point to the failures like McNabb. ok by me. where are your stats? to draw an assessment you need to have some metric. all of you point to the failures but have no standard. personnel selection fails across the board with everyone....every team. what is the metric you all are staking yourselves to? 10% failure rate? 20%? 30%? the complaints are meaningless from where I sit without some standard BEFORE the decisions are made. also, as anyone who works forensics will tell you, context matters. what circumstances surrounded each decision? I'm onboard for holding Shanahan accountab;le for the results. not onboard with coach potato analysis that is 100% hindsight and uninformed by context and decision criteria. sure, it's a privilege of every fan to wank. but wanking and knowledge are not the same thing.

if you're going to make these sorts of arguments you have to provide context. at the time a decision is made:

- what were the objectives?

- what was the opportunity cost in terms of other objectives?

- what resources were available at the time?

- what FA alternatives were available?

- how bad was the problem area for the team? i.e., what was the priority

- what were the projected consequences of a bad decision?

- where did the information come from that the decisions were based on? was it good information?

- what was the over-arching strategy that framed the decision?

- what was the chain for the internal decision process?

the answers to some of these questions point directly to Shanahan. no argument. but I'm constantly reading claims on this board about what should/should not have been done by people who have no idea at all how the actual decision process unfolded or its context. it's simply too easy to cyber wank with hindsight as the primary piece of knowledge.

Shanahan made mistakes. the roster needs more talent. these are not scintillating observations. we all know this. but progress was made IMO. there are players on this roster right now, brought in by Shanahan, who are going to be major contributors when (and it will) this ship gets placed back onto a course needed to get to the final destination. but there were all sorts of external extenuating circumstances that weigh in when making accountability decisions. I think Shanahan's hubris, in the end, is what produced the collapse and his early departure. but I also think the results were not entirely under his control. he inherited a friggin mess and then had to struggle with cap hits based on a whisper rule that really reflected NFL/ownership collusion to screw the players. this is why 5 teams were really slammed - for defying the illegal activities/priorities of the other owners! in the event, polluted Mara waters under the bridge. Shanahan is gone. we now have an empowered GM who is figuring out what the core values and vision are going to be for this team (along with the owner). we will hire a new coach and staff in the next couple weeks (my guess). we will learn how serious they are by who they hire and how well they integrate that person's "style" into the overall organization decision process. we will be signing FAs. we will learn whether they have a solid plan. first signings ought to include an RT and a top tier safety at the very least. Throw in a quality CB and this team is already 4-5 victories on the plus side IMO - lest we forget, we are in the NFCE. then comes the draft. there's plenty to be positive about - in the sense that there is a path forward. we aren't locked into hopelessville here.

screw what happened in the past. let's focus on where we are and where we need to go. we will find out in short order if there really has been a sea change. terrific for the folks who want to "sit back and watch before getting onboard." I can't fault them for that. me? I like trying to figure out what needs to be done. I like figuring out what the team's strategy is as it unfolds. I like the sense of moving forward. I don't worry about pull hooks when I golf - I immediately forget the shot and try to figure what I need to adjust in my swing to prevent the same outcome. well....that's where we are with the Skins.
 
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Fansince, I'm just sitting back and admiring the level of analysis and reason you're bringing to these coaching related discussions.

IOW, I agree with most everything you've posted recently.
 
matter of scale. the stuff you refer to pales in comparison to $36 mil cap hit. couple other thoughts:

- if you recall...Morgan wasn't who they were after. they had to settle cuz they were strapped for cash

My friend, you often speak of revisionist history. We signed Morgan and were still trying to sign Eddie Royal...after the Morgan signing. Ultimately, Royals chose San diego for about the same money he would have gotten from us. I think he got more guaranteed in San Diego.

Why would you sign another WR after you got Garcon when you've just been hamstrung? And why would you even consider a third WR?


- they signed Davis cuz they had him by the short ones price wise and they had no idea on how their draft picks would pan out. the reality is that Davis paired up quite well with RGIII. there was an upside. we still don't know what went on behind the scenes here. can't have it both ways - it's all Shanahan's ego/leadership vice it's a loser player.

Al, they gave him 5 million dollar franchise tag the season after he was suspended for drugs. That is not wise spending. Then he gets injured and they sign him again after an achilles injury, giving him 2 million bucks. I'm sorry, I was screaming to let the big dummy go. We could have done just as well with a UDFA. Fred Davis played a total of 6 games in those 2 seasons. If I can see he was a waste of space before they tagged him, then why couldn't they? Did they really have insight into something? If they did, they were sadly mistaked...that shows poor ability to evaluate players.



- sure Shanahan made mistakes. but if you think signing RGIII, Morris, Reed, Garcon, Kerrigan, Amersen, Young and several others isn't progress over the past...then there is no room for discussion. secondly, you and others can point to the failures like McNabb. ok by me. where are your stats? to draw an assessment you need to have some metric.

Ordinarily I would agree with you here regarding your request for a metric, but the loss of a 2nd round pick...a multi-year starter...is enough of a metric. The drama that was brought in as a result of the head banging between the veteran QB and coach is just icing on the cake to prove it was a poor acquisition. A 12 game rental QB for a multi-year starter compounded by the drama. You need a specific number to understand the failure there? Come on man.


if you're going to make these sorts of arguments you have to provide context. at the time a decision is made:

No I don't. I have the luxury of hindsight. If you want me to judge a coach we are considering, I would gladly go through the processes you outlined. But we can use hindsight to gripe about a poor decision that was already made. No need to understand the entire context and provide those who demand we understand the entire context of the situation.

Trading for McNabb was a poor decision
Trading for Jamaal Brown was a poor decision
Signing Josh morgan was a poor decision
Signing Fred Davis twice were poor decisions

We can look at the limited picture as fans, and clearly understand that. We don't need the complete analysis you demand.


Shanahan made mistakes. the roster needs more talent. these are not scintillating observations. we all know this. but progress was made IMO. there are players on this roster right now, brought in by Shanahan, who are going to be major contributors when (and it will) this ship gets placed back onto a course needed to get to the final destination.

I find it rather ironic you will make this claim without the "metrics" you demand of me. Luv ya pal, but that's gonna cut it.


I am not saying we are doomed as an organization. I think we have a nucleus to build something here that could be solid for years, not simply an outlier like a 7 game win streak to end a season. But I don't think we are "better off" than we were when Shanahan got here. I think we are just where we were...except the cap space. Let us not forget the new coach is stuck in a bit of a hole himself. He must build this team around players he has without the luxury of a guaranteed starter from the 1st round this season. Yeah, we have more cap space, but we also lack a #1 pick that pretty much guarantees a starter. Now instead of having a starter for 4 years at a cheaper rate, we must spend on a Free Agent to fill whatever position we would have drafted.
 
I'll add that, as I've said before, Shanahan's misses were cheap when it came to free agency and draft picks were recouped on some level.

It's hard to give a guy credit for somewhat climbing out of a hole he dug himself, but to compare him to Vinny is just absurd.

The new coach wont be coming to a team full of over-aged, over-paid vets, devoid of draft picks, devoid of talent, with serious cap implications residing on the roster.

In fact, the new coach will come in with quite the opposite.

I have a feeling 3 years down the road it will be much clearer how significantly different the team is now compared to any other time Snyder has owned it.
 
1) I went back and reviewed posts on Morgan - every San Fran fan at the time was sad to see the guy go. He was well regard around the league. There was some fretting over the contract with 7.5 mil guaranteed - with a two year void....hmmmmmmm. Royal had 23 receptions in 2012 and 47 in 2013...not exactly world beating numbers either for someone who signed for basically the same contract as Morgan with San Diego.

2) they took a risk on Davis - who most agreed had a high top side - just like they did with a another drug casualty (Williams). I supported keeping him and would have liked to see he and Reed together. in the main, I'll concede Davis was a questionable move in many respects. the contract, however, was for one year at 2mil - pretty cheap. again, the team had already spent its wad. you are mistaken on one thing - Davis teamed every well with RGIII in 2012. he was having a very productive season up to the moment he was injured. like you, I watched those games, and he was getting open a lot. a UDFA to me is another Paulsen - great guy who would ride the pine on just about all other teams. calling what Davis was doing in 2012 comparable to what could be expected from a UDFA falls in the realm of hyperbole.

3) how do you know a second round pick will be a multi-year starter? the move for McNabb was a stretch in some respects....but...again....you neglect context. everyone knew the biggest problem in DC for the past decade+ was the putrid QB play. I can fault Shanahan for due diligence, but I understand why the move was made. they weren't in a position to draft a quality QB. of course, once it was clear McNabb was un-coachable, they then went cheap with Butterball and Beck. Shanahan delivered RGIII in 2012. so he finally fixed a problem this franchise has been burdened with since forever.

4) What you call poor decisions were not so. if you recall, there was a recurring pattern of signing injured and mid-tier players. the team has been cash strapped during most of the Shanahan tenure. hello - Haynesworth anyone? I find it amusing that anyone can argue that a different player should have been signed because they performed well some place else in another system with a totally different cast of teammates and coaches. pure conjecture and totally unprovable. at the time they were looking at morgan and royal the players were seen as roughly comparable. royal elected to sign with the Bolts.

5) The nucleus of players I have referred to have performed well. we have all seen it. Garcon set a team record for heaven's sake! RGIII was a rookie of the year. Morris set a redskin rookie rushing record if memory serves. I can draw similar story lines for the other players I listed. these players have not only shined at various times, they are young. they are the base that can be built upon. you are mixing concepts - the metric I addressed considered how one evaluates a FA. the list of players I presented as the nucleus have actually performed well and excelled - those are demonstrable facts.

they went after 3 wideouts cuz that was the strategy they had committed to in the preseason plans they had built. that was the priority - especially since they knew they were going to draft RGIII. it cost them other position signings given the limited resources - but it made sense in context given the lackluster performance of the receiving corps the previous season.

you believe this team is no better off than it was the day Zorn exited stage left. that is your prerogative. IMO the culture has improved radically, the cap situation is better, the FO situation - while still in some flux - is infinitely better, the nucleus of core players is better, the locker room is better, the really disruptive players are gone, we have our QB, we had a HC who, if nothing else, reduced the presence and influence of Snyder when it comes to football operations. as I recall, the fans were at near palace revolt levels toward the end of the comical Zorn era. the ending this time around, while suffering some of its own distasteful drama of leaks, was still orders of magnitude less idiotic than what transpired during the Zorn daze. Shanahan has been gone 3 days and it's already calmed down around here. none of the circus we have endured in the past.

yes we lack a number one pick this year - you forgot the tail end of that....because we have our starting QB.a selling point, btw, for attracting coaches. RGIII will get his off-seaon to prepare and, one hopes, a HC or QB coach to take him to the next level. sorry dude...compared to what I saw in the regimes previous to Shanahan....I know progress when I see it. the record sucked this year, for a whole lotta reasons, most especially because our QB rushed back into service too quickly. Shanahan did make mistakes. not disputing that either. but he also moved the ball forward in several respects in the bigger picture of turning what had been a laughing stock franchise around. more work to be done. but as I posted elsewhere - you can see the path forward. it's there if the right decisions get made.
 
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Good post fansince62. And while I agree with most of what you said, I'll say that Shamahan earned his firing. Up until the very end, I was in favor of retaining him for the final year of his contract. But his demeanor, and actions, over the last month, confirmed in my mind, all my initial distastes for the man. A petty, overrated, maniacal prick. More concerned with his own reputation than anything else. I accept, and appreciate the good he did do for us. But, IMO, he turned on his own team, which includes everyone from the owner to the water boy, for the sake of saving his own self image. And for that, there is no redemption.

He was the source of the leaks. A day before, or the day of, games. Unforgivable. Not the kind of leadership for a head coach. I believe the players knew it, and regardless of any public support, he lost them.

So, my parting thoughts would be, "Thank you, and **** you, Mike".
 

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