Burner's Burning Questions: Week Thirteen, Getting New Coaches Or Status Quo

Rymanofthenorth said:

" It's funny to me how none of the Nostradamus' here were screaming that the wheels were about to come off, how every decision the current regime ever made was the wrong one, when we were winning the NFC East crown last year. If you express anything other than a desire to grab a torch and join the mob, you're 'making excuses' or clueless."

Ahem. I believe there was at least one person here who was pretty damn vocal, and someone changed his profile to eeyore because of it.
I am not happy at being right, in fact if anything im more irritated, being Cassandra is never fun.

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I agree with you Ryman - you have been the most consistent voice on the site in a lot of ways. My main point is that you were scorned/mocked almost universally for your viewpoint until now when suddenly there's not a seat left on your bandwagon...

I just wish people would try and keep a little bit more of an even keel. This team had major holes when we won the NFC east and we still have a number of positives now that we suck again it's not all or nothing. While the Shanahans have let us down, I don't think they deserve the wrath and scorn they are getting. Not does Griffin. I am hurting and pissed about this team too, and I'm not advocating for any specific fix. I have no idea what the right course of action is. I'd just like to see a little less vitriol I guess.

Ultimately though, my POV isn't any more meaningful than anyone else's, so if people want to flame I guess I'll just commit to bringing the marshmallows.

Boone said:

I just wish people would try and keep a little bit more of an even keel. This team had major holes when we won the NFC east and we still have a number of positives now that we suck again it's not all or nothing. While the Shanahans have let us down, I don't think they deserve the wrath and scorn they are getting. Not does Griffin. I am hurting and pissed about this team too, and I'm not advocating for any specific fix. I have no idea what the right course of action is. I'd just like to see a little less vitriol I guess.

Ultimately though, my POV isn't any more meaningful than anyone else's, so if people want to flame I guess I'll just commit to bringing the marshmallows.

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You're asking for level-headedness that you aren't going to get

You're right. It would be preferred if conversing over the state of the redskins didn't resemble the the way we converse over politics (the general we)

I've commented before (not here, just in general, and years ago) that the number 1 thing wrong with the redskins is Washington DC. We seem to breed incompetence and hysterics here, and it extends far beyond our favorite football team.

tshile said:

I think you're spot on about not having a stomach for the long haul. I find it ridiculously ironic that in many ways the majority of the fanbase resembles the owner they claim to hate.

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When the coach disregards the option to start over from scratch and decides to try to win now with Zorns roster and does it all 4 years, then 4 years later expects patience, why should we buy into it? What long haul do you speak of? You mean just throwing a bunch of shit together every year in the hope that it finally smells like roses?

We could have most of an OL or all new DB's from the picks and money blown on McNugget, Brown, keeping Haynesworth + caphit, Davis, etc. Wasn't a 1st offered for Cousins? Why not take it when he can't see the field even with RG3 obviously 50% and then putting up 0 points in the first half of 5-6 games this year. Maybe because Shanahan knew we'd lose anyway because Cousins really isn't that good, so why not trade him for that pick?

When every decision made is to WIN NOW and you go 3-13 to 5-11 then why should anyone look forward to a 5th season? Imagine how many #1 overall picks we'd have had if Shanahan had just decided to suck it up and play to win a Super Bowl later? We'd not only have RG3, Luck or Newton, but also we'd have a ton of young players and all of our #1's later. Hell he might have even been smart enough to go after Foles or Wilson.

When the Browns and Jaguars both have more wins while starting 3-4 Qb's each that Shanahan wouldn't even consider over Grossman, and we already knew they were likely 3-13 teams this year, then you have to figure Shanahan and his WIN NOW AT ALL COSTS has totally blown up in his own face once again.

We knew he was overrated when the talk started about Snyder wanting him even when he was still coaching in Denver. Nothing the past 4 years has changed that fact. Even if he gets his 5th year and somehow repeats last year with a patched up roster while still having several holes, does anybody think we can hang with SF, NO, or Seattle, or even the up and coming Rams, Panthers, or Cardinals? And those aren't even counting any of our 6 divisional games.

Remember Shanahans goal was to WIN SUPER BOWLS. Does anybody see that happening?

Burner’s Burning Questions – Week Thirteen, Getting New Coaches Or Status Quo, Part Two​

BBQ is ditching the grading scale this week for some tough questions and you are free to answer with your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions. Several offseason coaching scenarios were presented on Thursday and your input is very much appreciated – feel free to post more of your ideas and suggestions. Today, we take a look at some of the ideas posted over the last day or so.

1. Your Thoughts And Ideas
There seems to be a strong consensus that the Redskins need to hire a football General Manager and BBQ strongly supports this idea. Many of you have suggested that Coach Shanahan should be relinquished of GM duties and the sooner, the better. Would he be willing to make this concession and would he resign if there was no acceptance of a football GM? Would Dan Snyder fire Shanahan with cause if there is resistance? Could there be an amicable parting of the ways in such a scenario? Feel free to share your thoughts.

2. Keeping The Head Coach
There was no strong consensus either way. Some members suggested that keeping the staff intact maintains a certain amount of continuity. Others said it was time for the entire staff to be fired and start anew. BBQ believes that an entirely new staff is needed and warranted. We can respectfully agree and disagree, but the division that we see in this thread simply illustrates that there are no easy suggestions and solutions.

3. Going With A College Coach Or NFL Assistant
Perhaps it is premature to speculate on such a move when the current staff is still in place with one-quarter of the season remaining. There were no attempts by any members to speculate on possible replacements or if a college coach is preferred over a league assistant. BBQ has put forth the idea of Stanford head coach David Shaw or Bill O’Brien at Penn State. Too, it is the opinion of BBQ that the entire Shanahan staff will be gone after the last game of the season as there are many rumors (and it should be stressed that these are nothing more than rumors) which are now coming to the surface.

There are no easy solutions and the members at BGO only want the best for their favorite team. Keep the ideas and suggestions coming as we endure the last four games of the season. Strap in tight – the next four weeks plus will be volatile and stressful, but we can try our best to speculate on a positive future.

Hail To The Redskins!

SkinsFTW said:

When the coach disregards the option to start over from scratch and decides to try to win now with Zorns roster and does it all 4 years, then 4 years later expects patience, why should we buy into it? What long haul do you speak of? You mean just throwing a bunch of shit together every year in the hope that it finally smells like roses?

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edit: let me reword this a little so it's less... inflammatory

I think this team is significantly better off now than it's been in the last 15 years. This team has the most potential, real potential, has the best locker room it's had in 15 years. It's in position to bring in whoever it thinks will be key in terms of young people through the draft and vets through free agency with our cap position.

I don't understand how anyone who's closely followed this team since the ownership became up in the air in the mid '90s could look at this team and the way it's set up as an organization and think it's not significantly better than it's been since then.

You may not like Shanahan's ego or his decisions, but this team is run by football people for the first time since the early 90's. Football decisions are being made by qualified people for the first time in almost 20 years. That is irrefutable at this point. Cerrato and Snyder are not 'football people' and Allen and Shanahan are - regardless of how similar results are over a 4 year period of time. It's simply not debatable.

It makes me sad that so many people want to see it blown up. That after 4 years of significant course correction for this organization so many people want the only football people that have entered the front office in 20 years to be run out of town, and that the shitbag idiot of an owner Snyder should be put back in power and tasked with choosing yet another coach. The guy that's systematically ruined our franchise over the last 15 years. The guy that's turned us into a laughing stock. The guy that ruined the integrity of the franchise. We don't have a season ticket waiting list anymore. Other owners not only laugh at us, but they're clearly out to get us. Majority of the people in this country think we're as dysfunctional as the Cowboys, some think we're even more so.

To me it seems like too many people have forgotten what this team was like pre-Shanahan. It seems to me like too many people think the same way our owner does.

But that's ok, the memories will quickly return if Griffin is the one choosing the coaching staff this offseason. Someone he 'likes.'

I have no idea what the right answer is, but it appears everyone else thinks they do. Odds are we'll be looking for a coach and possible a GM in a few weeks. You should all start getting your applications ready, because clearly we're not looking for actual football people to run the team anymore.

We've made our name as the coach and player carousel of the NFL. It seems a lot of fans want to keep it that way.

By the way, when you guys bitch about why we have no respect from the national media...

This is why. Because it's always a circus here and everyone (but us) has learned over time that even when things look good, the smart bet is that the circus will eventually return.

I'm on the conservative side when it comes to hiring and firing head coaches. As for Gm's they can look really great for a few years like Peoli in NY and run outta town like Peoli in KC....Shanny and son came as a package deal. I think long term most were hoping Kyle might work himself into his Dad's spot down the road.
My biggest issue with Mike is he continues to put his foot in his own mouth when it comes to handling and addressing the media during a player meltdown or falling star moment. He doesn't come across as particularly loyal or trustworthy to the fans and the media. h
I think the team has too much invested in Griffin to not allow his opinion in (a hopefully private) on whether he can build a bond and trust with the coaches. I'm only speculating but it seems only natural and more likely that there are trust issues between the offense and the coaching staff . As for the Defense we know that's getting blown up...

Either Shanny gets year 5 his way or we blow it up period.

Right now either would suit me just fine, there are reasons to believe not necessarily justify our abysmal performance this year. There are also reasons to move forward in another direction.

tshile said:

I think this team is significantly better off now than it's been in the last 15 years. This team has the most potential, real potential, has the best locker room it's had in 15 years. It's in position to bring in whoever it thinks will be key in terms of young people through the draft and vets through free agency with our cap position.

I don't understand how anyone who's closely followed this team since the ownership became up in the air in the mid '90s could look at this team and the way it's set up as an organization and think it's not significantly better than it's been since then.

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Dude 3-9 is still 3-9 no matter if its Zorn/Cerrato or Shanahan.

My point was it doesn't matter if its 5% or even 100% better than Dumb and Dumber. Who really believes that the way Shanahan has built this team, hired assistants (our newest is the ST Coach), turned down draft picks for players he has no intention of playing etc, allows us any chance when we have to face Seattle, SF, NO, Carolina, Az, and even the Rams and Lions and next year the Falcons without the injuries, not even counting our own division in which we haven't won a game against in a year?

So you are saying that you believe Shanahan is just 1-2 years from taking us to a Super Bowl building a team like this? Or are you just content with the decreased level of incompetence? IMO he has us so far behind the 8 ball it's beyond ridiculous.

My problem with this is it's obvious that if Shanahan is ever going to make it work he will need at least another 4-5 years and who wants to bet that he does it right the next 5 years when he wont even fire the worst DC hire he could have made in 2010 and replace him with guys like Wade Phillips, Crennel, Rob Ryan, among others more qualified to run a 3-4 who have been jobless since?

What we will see is MAYBE Haslett gets fired in a defensive move to save his ass for another year but he didn't do it when the decision was warranted 2-3 years ago. So instead of already having a guy like Phillips/Ryan, both of whom would have loved to come here BTW, because Shanahan made the decision already, who knows he might just promote Slowik, or hire some other guy with a 25-32nd ranked defense to run it. His past performance as a decision maker shows that he's not going to hire a guy like Romeo Crennel or even Rex Ryan if he gets fired. He's going to go after somebody like the guy who was his linebackers coach when he coached the Raiders in the 80's or maybe a guy like John Lynch wants out of broadcasting and he might be able to coach defense.

In other words, his decisions make no real sense. In 2010 we heard Shanahan was hired, with all those defensive coaches on the market at the time who guessed Haslett would be the one hired? Who then guessed that when he lived up to his bottom 1/4 of the league defense rep that he'd make it past year 2?

Shouldn't there be a 6th scenario, where a former NFL Head Coach is hired ?

Either one that was fired after the 2013 season, or a former NFL HC ?

4 years in the pro sports of today is sufficient time to evaluate a head coach.

The fact Shanahan decided he wanted to be his own GM is on him, so if the decisions there didn't turn out so well or he gave up too much for the talent he acquired then that is merely one or more of his 'management challenges'.

The simple truth is this team will end up finishing dead last in the NFC East for the 3rd time in 4 years, a stretch mind where the division has been at a low ebb in terms of overall competitiveness.

The other thing Shanahan takes responsibility for is the quality of his coaching staff, or lack thereof.

The special teams are atrocious. Every unit, both kicking and receiving.

The defense fails to produce results but the organization refuses to get players like Rob Jackson or Brandon Jenkins or Darryl Tapp on the field to try and get a better pass rush or in the case of Jackson better play vs the pass in the short and intermediate zones.

After 4 years we are still counting on Reed Doughty to save us at free safety. OJ Atogwe was an expensive free agent bust and Tanard Jackson was a pot head that couldn't put down the rolling paper.

Whose fault is it we don't have a viable player at this position? Is it still Vinny Cerrato or can we finally blame something on Shanahan the GM?

On offense, how is that $5M working out for us with Josh Morgan? Other than Pierre Garcon, Morgan is the most expensive free agent we have added on offense and it appears he isn't a very good wide receiver or return man.

Makes you wonder why the Redskins were so anxious to throw money in his direction. You mean we couldn't have gotten this guy on a one year deal for say $1.5M to prove himself?

There were that many other teams out there willing to make a 2 year, $12M commitment?

It's when you take into account the full scope of Shanahan's responsibilities that you see how short this organization has come up overall.

The talent acquisition has been mediocre. As indicated above some bad decisions. Some good ones as well, but not enough to move the team significantly forward towards being consistently competitive.

The coaching has been mediocre to poor. The defense has been consistently rated among the bottom units in the NFC the past four seasons. The special teams this year are the worst I have ever seen them going back to the 1970's.

The offense has played well in spurts, but has failed to put a solid all around game together outside of the contest with the Bears. The offensive line is on pace to give up 45 plus sacks. Not too good there since we are starting a veteran line with most of the players 28-31 and supposedly in their primes.

tshile said:

Snyder and Cerrato when they made Hall and Haynesworth's contracts. The options were have the players or get rid of them and risk the cap penalty (well, restructure their contracts, get rid of haynesworth, we obviously kept hall). The amount was equal to the cap space they saved by moving their contracts into the uncapped year. That's how the penalty was reasoned.

The whole thing revolved around a decade plus of bad contracts and the redskins attempted to get out of them and the league said - no, you'll pay for what you've done over the last 10 years. All of which occurred pre-Shanahan.

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Sure, quote part of my statement and ignore the broad picture. If Shanahan had not ignored the "agreement" the owners had in place about the cap, then the penalty would not have come just hours before the start of Free Agency. That cost us huge!

It's not just about amounts...it was also about timing. A gamble by Shanahan to dump the money when around 27 other NFL teams agreed not to do it, cost us some valuable Free Agents...Vince Jackson on one side and Pierre Garcon on the other, with probably Eric Winston manning the RT spot. Hypotheticals sure, but that was who the Redskins were seeking and ultimately could not afford because we got hit with the penalty 48 hours prior to the Free Agent market because Shanahan thought he was smarter than everyone else. He doesn't try to outsmart everyone, we don't have the NFL slam us right before the Free Agency period...that simple.

Right or wrong, the penalty was administered because of Mike Shanahan...you can argue he was placed in a precarious situation all you want, but you cannot absolve him of responsibility.

Someone refresh my memory. I don't recall anyone offering us a 1st......or a 2nd......or even a 3rd round pick for Cousins.

Though, from reading some of the fantasy disco written about him around here since last January, he's obviously worth two 1st's, two 2nd's, and possibly a 3rd as well.

Elephant said:

Sure, quote part of my statement and ignore the broad picture. If Shanahan had not ignored the "agreement" the owners had in place about the cap, then the penalty would not have come just hours before the start of Free Agency. That cost us huge!

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You're right, the money would have been tied up in the contacts instead...

I'm sure as hell all for a new O-line coach this offseason. I mean can anyone name one friggin draft pick who's blossomed under Forester?

Edit: that may not be a fair question since all of them are 6th rounders or UDFA's, lol.

SkinsFTW said:

Dude 3-9 is still 3-9 no matter if its Zorn/Cerrato or Shanahan.

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Which is my point. Too many people are evaluating things based on short sightedness. There is a whole lot more to an organization that the record over a small set of time. 10 years of Cerrato and Snyder absolutely destroyed this organization. In many, many ways. It's about more than just a record.

SkinsFTW said:

So you are saying that you believe Shanahan is just 1-2 years from taking us to a Super Bowl building a team like this? Or are you just content with the decreased level of incompetence? IMO he has us so far behind the 8 ball it's beyond ridiculous.

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No. The NFL doesn't work that way and anyone with any sense knows that. The best you can do is set your organization up to be a yearly-contender to make the playoffs. You give yourself a shot as many years as possible, hoping you make it through to the big game one of them. Ball bounces, weather, fluke plays, refs, etc all go into it. You can't 'make a super bowl run.' Being a successful organization means being competitive year in year out. We haven't been that in 20 years. This is the closest we've been. The 2005 and 2007 playoff runs were jokes with no long term viability.

SkinsFTW said:

My problem with this is it's obvious that if Shanahan is ever going to make it work he will need at least another 4-5 years and who wants to bet that he does it right the next 5 years when he wont even fire the worst DC hire he could have made in 2010 and replace him with guys like Wade Phillips, Crennel, Rob Ryan, among others more qualified to run a 3-4 who have been jobless since?

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It's obvious the team that won the division last year needs 5 years to be competitive?

Give me a break.

The NFL doesn't work that way and you know it. The panthers were a joke last year and now look at them. Seattle came out of nowhere. Things turn on a dime for organizations.

Well, most organizations. The ones that don't have decade+ of incompetence to rebound from. Teams like the Jags, Raiders, Bucs, Bills, and Redskins have a lot more to overcome because they have 10+ years of incompetent football decisions digging a massive hole to climb out of.

We were a bad football team. Among the worst in the league for a long time. This is the best we've been in terms of organizational structure and football operations. Is it perfect? No.

But if you want to compare records from Shanahan to Cerrato and write them of as equal have at it. There's plenty of others joining you in that ridiculous assessment.

edit: I have no problem with people saying Shanahan needs to go. The staff is indefensible at this point. My problem is with comparing this regime to the last. It's absurd.

tshile said:

You're right, the money would have been tied up in the contacts instead...

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The sarcasm does not go unnoticed... Why do you argue just for the sake of arguing? Yes Cerrato is an asshat...but you cannot absolve Shanahan for the cap penalty!

A+B=C

A. Shanahan tried to sneak salaries when there was a so-called uncapped year because of labor agreement.
B. NFL officials slapped the Redskins with penalties at the most inopportune moment.
C. Redskins were hamstrung in a year they were trying to upgrade critical positions of need.

We would have had time to maneuver the money "tied up in contracts" and not be left scrambling 2 days before we thought we were going to be able to add certain key players. Vinny Cerrato was no where near this organization when they took the gamble of loading the contracts in a so-called uncapped year. Asshat that he is for creating the mess, Vinny bears blame but only part!

Only part? He created the contracts. Shanahan/Allen tried to maneuver out of them, and couldn't.

The original contracts were the entire problem. The original contracts were done by Snyder and Cerrato.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. Me telling you you're wrong is not arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm participating in a conversation.