ESPN--Riddick: Redskins' Passing Game Is Simple

MikeSr619 said:

yeah, but this is my thing about that. Next year after the cap is gone and we can go after some people the excuse is going to sound like "you didnt think our first year back from cap hell was going to make us all better again, did you?"

its one excuse after another.

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Well, that's only if you think adding a legit RT and RG does nothing for line play.

Adding a NT,CB and a safety along with LF's replacement does nothing for the D

And if you expect those additions to immediately make us Super Bowl contenders.

We're basically talking about the difference between generic toilet paper and Charmin here. Both are labeled to do the same thing but one falls apart while the other gets the job done.

MikeSr619 said:

You obviously dont know this fan base as well as you think you do if you dont believe they will come up with the excuses that I said.

And thats ok...I am a homer, too. I live and die for this team and will point out when people do stuff like that. I just already know it is going to happen since, you know, its been happening for almost 20 years now.

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You act as if this is exclusive to only the Redskins fanbase.

Every fanbase makes excuses. Hell, there are 49er fans right now that probably want Kaepernick cut and Harbaugh fired.

Hell, Steeler fans are stoking the flames on Big Ben trade rumors.

But none of those franchises got bent over for 36 million in cap room. Call it an excuse if you want but it is a fact and you'd have to either be clueless or just a troll that likes to stir the pot to deny that it had any effect on the current squad.

Mike's right. I can tell you right now you can put me in the group of people he's talking about.

As someone who's only known this team to be a loser, this is the closest thing to a well-run organization I've seen in my actual life. If you can tell me Snyder will bring in better people when he cans this group, I'm all for it. At this point I'm forced to default to the idea that he not only will he not bring in better people, but that he's not even capable of it if he tried his hardest.

Maybe Allen wasn't a prop for Shanahan and will stay after Shanahan's gone. Maybe he'll pick the new coach. Maybe he deserves a hell of a lot more credit than I (and many others) have been giving him.

Maybe the problem is the Shanahans. At this point it's pretty hard to defend anyone in the organization management wise.

tshile said:

At this point I'm forced to default to the idea that he not only will he not bring in better people, but that he's not even capable of it if he tried his hardest.

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This is where I am too.

Rock and a hard place, really. Sigh.

Lavar Arrington said one smart thing over the time I listened to him. This was years ago, when he first started on Radio in the area.

He said (I'm paraphrasing) - There's been a lot of good players brought through here. A lot of big name coaches. A lot of people that have had success elsewhere. A lot of money thrown around and a lot of people have come through here, been bad, and had fine careers after they left playing somewhere else. Why is that?

He went through a lengthy list of people that fit those descriptions.

IMO, I'd give Shanny his full five.

Let Bruce and Shanny spend our restored cap space however they see fit and then judge them off of the results next January.

I want to win just as much as anyone on this board. And maybe I am naive but a contract is your word and your word is your bond.

Snyder should honor the contract.

I still think these coaches and front office can win. I'm not going to spell out why I believe that because I'm not in the mood to get pummeled and mocked, which is what I'd get right now. I'm willing to give Shanahan his final contract year to prove this year was an anomaly and see what he can do with a contract extension or firing hanging in the balance. Playoffs in 2014 or we move on. That's fair and that would be my offer to him, take it or leave it.

DieselPwr44 said:

IMO, I'd give Shanny his full five.

Let Bruce and Shanny spend our restored cap space however they see fit and then judge them off of the results next January.

I want to win just as much as anyone on this board. And maybe I am naive but a contract is your word and your word is your bond.

Snyder should honor the contract.

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I was with you until I started thinking about that cap space.

Do Snyder and Allen have the power, contractually, to pull that?

Most of the 'talent' we've brought here from other teams was well past their prime. I think that's fairly obvious. I don't think Snyder has a major influence on the on-the-field product these days. I think our franchise 'culture' is generally a very positive one. That's not enough to win in the NFL though, whether you are Joe Gibbs, Mike Shanahan, or Vince effing Lombardi. We lack talent in crucial places...we may need to start over on defense. And that's the obvious issue if you ask me.

I am very much concerned about our coaching staff situation. There have been rumblings, and they are only rumors, that Shanahan isn't "allowing" Haslett to do what he wants with the defense a majority of the time. If that's the case, there's a world of issues at play. If Shanahan really isn't letting him call the shots, Haslett needs to be let go. If Shanahan is worried about him being let go because he may talk and let out "inside secrets", Shanahan needs to be let go, too. If none of that is true, Haslett should still be let go and Shanahan allowed to stay.

I think the Griffin offseason saga damaged the team. No, I don't blame RG3, I don't blame Shanahan, I don't blame anyone. But I think that's where the downfall started. The stars aligned in just the wrong way.

Now what? Well, I think we need a football GM. Hire him to work with Allen. Allen stays on board and handles the business end of football. Let them mull over their options.

I know this: If we don't think Shanahan is going to be here after year five, the time to part with him is now. We're getting FA dollars back, and we don't want to let him draft/use the FA money on players who fit his schemes if we're going to change them. If we think Kyle or Mike will be here after next season, and think Haslett isn't, it's the same concept. We don't want to draft 3-4 guys now and wind up in a 4-3.

The tough choices are the ones made before any money is spent, and they determine the direction of the franchise.

On topic, Riddick is right, but I'd guess our personnel is a major reason why. Our receivers, aside from Garcon, aren't dynamic. They only fill certain niches. It's partially why the play calling is predictable. We don't have well rounded players. Our OL needs significant changes, especially the interior. Our receivers need to be more well rounded (Moss is still damn good, but he's not the same Santana. I would have loved to have seen him paired with Garcon when he was younger). Those two major changes will help the dynamic ability of the offense quite a bit. Young is a wildcard that helps tremendously, but he can only add so much versatility.

Defensively is the same issue, we're weak up front. Those things need to be addressed. We are predictable, partially because our personnel forces us to be.

I watched all 5 Redskins Super Bowl teams and so 1980 and 1988 were the only losing seasons I saw from 1972-1993.

We have had little but losing since then.

What it comes down to is whether this team is ever again going to play solid, fundamental football.

It's really not an emotional issue but a practical one.

The Redskins have a young, green qb who was put in a system in 2012 that got him on the field right away but didn't do much to force him to grow into an all-around passer.

That's the same 'now' thinking that had Shanahan trading for McNabb in 2010 when this team was old and needed a rebuild.

Do you want to develop Griffin to the full or do you just want to win a few more games early on at the cost of down the road?

Also, if you are going to invest that much in a qb you have to then put together a credible OL in front of him.

This line from left to right is not a capable unit. At least not capable if you don't have a cheetah playing qb.

And let's not pretend, Morris gets a lot of yards after contact, so it's not like the line is clearing guys out for the ground game either.

So you now have a frustrated young qb whose pet plays from 2012 have been smelled out and defended better in 2013 and a line that can't handle the extra pass pro responsibilities.

On defense you start with a pass rush. Despite high draft picks at LB and free agent signings on the DL before the cap penalty, these guys can't get to the qb consistently.

That is a lot bigger issue right now than thinking about signing a cover corner like Talib in the offseason.

The Redskins teams that were contenders could all pass protect and rush the passer.

All except the 1991 team had veteran quarterbacks that could run a full offensive set.

We don't have any of these elements and so are 3-7 on the way to 3-8.

It's not an analysis that requires emotion.

So, I don't understand why people keep getting upset when others are merely observing what IS.

Henry said:

Also, Griffin's passer rating on third down is better than his rating on first or second. First down is by far his worst, which doesn't at all fit in with the narrative that getting Griffin to third down renders him ineffective.

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But I think it does, Henry. First down is where we take the boom or bust shots down the field. The payoff is big but chance of failure goes up significantly too which is going to lower a QB's rating even while threatening the defense.

We can't stop pass rushers without trickery, we can't rush the passer without trickery. From last year, through training camp and the preseason, through our first 10 games it remains the same. Teams that stop pass rush have more success on offense, teams that rush the passer well have more success on defence. It's pretty goddamn simple.

Riddick, he just confirms what any football fan can see... we are not a good football team. Throw around your excuses, apologies for this player that player, this coach, that coach.... Our team sucks. They don't beat who they should, if there is any other team that needs a win they come to us to get it. We're soft, undisciplined, can't block, can't tackle, can't throw or can't catch on the weekly basis. The basic fundamentals are missing completely and that I'm afraid has to come from the top down.

I'm afraid that Shanahan doesn't have control any more and the control he does have isn't being used to make anybody better. He hasn't replaced Burns or Hazlett because he's got nothing better left in the tank. This team is going nowhere fast and its sad that the guy you need to have the most faith in (Mike Shanahan) doesn't seem like it matters much.

Nobody[ (goddammit Extreme) There isn't anybody here that loves Redskins football more than I. But my friends, something has got to change, until it does I think we'll continue to see glimpses of what is possible. I admitted to myself that RG3 was human when he went down last year, he's not the "smartest" guy in the league as so many were so quick to anoint him, he's not without flaws which so many turn a deaf ear to.... We honestly could be just as good if not better if we never traded for the right to draft Griffin.

Griffin doesn't seem to be being coached anymore either, just like we've seen our corners, safeties, and wide receivers flounder for years without proper coaching, I'm afraid that is what we are seeing with our QB and also the wasted talent brought in for the 3-4. Buckle up kids, gonna be a bumpy ride for a while for sure.

Throwing deep yesterday prevented Griffin from getting into an early rhythm where we could take advantage of Morris' effectiveness.

We needed to see some slants and receiver screens to back the Eagles off and then the deep pass might have been there later on.

Throwing deep on first down play action is what the Eagles were expecting.

fansince62 said:

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one has to wonder: are the right people in place to actually build a winner. the evidence, year after year, suggests NOT. but we fans ride the hope train season after season after season. what are the core problems with this organization that keep it from becoming competitive…let alone a consistent winner? what is it that - in the broad scheme of things - makes this franchise consistent losers?

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This is what I keep thinking about today...organizational dysfunction. What is so deeply embedded in this organization that sees us remain in such dysfunction?

The only constant over the past 15 years of dread has been Snyder. Has his absolute incompetence for football bled so deeply into the organization that a Hall of Fame coach cannot fix it? The only coach we saw true progression from in the last 10 years was Marty. Even Gibbs was incapable of elevating the quality of the product. He was able to squeeze blood from turnips, but was not able to elevate the overall quality in 4 years with the team to turn the organization around. Could he have if given a couple more years? I don't know. He had to work with Cerrato as the talent guy.

I just don't know if we lay the current state of woes on Snyder though. From all appearances, he has stepped back from meddling. And if it is not Snyder this time, then what is it? Are we over reacting to the level of brokenness? Is it DC? I mean really...what could be so ingrained in the organization over the last 20 years that we have been unable to break this vicious cycle of incompetence?

I mean for ****'s sake, we have seen the Arizona Cardinals have more success in the last 5 years than us, the Detroit Lions, the Seahags went from SB contender to terrible and back in less time than we have.

Miles Monroe said:

It's kind of funny that so many expect Washington to put out a top tier product after the cap penalty levied over the past two seasons. Even the boobs in the booth yesterday brought up the subject, and had a graphic up with the players Philly had accounting for 18K in cap. It was like 6 or 7 key starters. Multiply that by two, and that leaves us with jack **** to build with.

Some say that's Snyders fault. Me, I see don't it that way. There's an old saying.... you can't make chicken salad out of chicken **** and if you do, nobody is going to swallow it.

If we were winning right now, Shanny would be a god instead on the hot seat for making a team with few top tier players win. He's had chicken **** to work with, so why the great surprise when we're up and down.

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But who gave him the chicken **** Pete? Shanahan is to blame for much of the deficiency he has on this roster.

Josh Morgan and Fred Davis both were questionable signings when we had such limited cap space. I understand there is some logic to it, but our problems go much, much deeper than a simple cap issue.

Neophyte said:

But I think it does, Henry. First down is where we take the boom or bust shots down the field. The payoff is big but chance of failure goes up significantly too which is going to lower a QB's rating even while threatening the defense.

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Nah. The fact that we throw deep off play-action on first down is proof of nothing other than we throw deep off play-action on first down. If it also meant Griffin sucked on third down he wouldn't have one of the higher third down conversion rates in the league.

I'm not defending Griffin here, mind you. I'm just done with all the 'experts' telling me what's wrong with this team, when they clearly have no clue.

Elephant said:

The only coach we saw true progression from in the last 10 years was Marty.

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Not even. Marty at best gets an incomplete.

Going from 0-5 to 8-8 in one season is no more impressive than going from 3-6 to 10-6. It's just one season, which I think we all now know pretty much means nothing.

It's not all that complicated if you look at the situation from an unbiased point of view.
1) The team isn't talented enough to overcome big deficits.
2) They haven't played 4 quarters of quality football in any games this year. It's not any one player or unit.
3) The Defense and special teams are ranked in the bottom 3 in the league all year long. it's not just a trend....(all year long in every game regardless of the level of competition)
4) A second year qb playing behind a poor pass blocking line

Cycleans said:

It's not all that complicated if you look at the situation from an unbiased point of view.
1) The team isn't talented enough to overcome big deficits.
2) They haven't played 4 quarters of quality football in any games this year. It's not any one player or unit.
3) The Defense and special teams are ranked in the bottom 3 in the league all year long. it's not just a trend....(all year long in every game regardless of the level of competition)
4) A second year qb playing behind a poor pass blocking line

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I am not complicating the actual product on the field at this point. It is what I thought it would be prior to the season...7-9 with a small possibility of a 2 game swing upward. I still see us winning 3 or 4 of the last 6.

The problem is institutional. It has to be. There has been so much dysfunction in this organization over 20 years there is no escaping how deeply it runs.

And Henry, I am going off pure conjecture, but I think Marty would have seen success here because the organization had not bee so overly corrupted to the point he was not able to turn it around. They lost the 1st 5 games that year because players balked, but as the season wore on and they saw success, the players had begun to buy into Marty ball. I really believe the biggest mistake Snyder ever made was getting rid of Schottenheimer. But, like you said...it was only one season.