Darrell Green: I don’t think [Griffin] really IS the leader.

well....opinions vary!

clearly through the first 3-4 games there was little to no leadership on defense. we know there is little to no leadership on STs. the offense? hard to say. I do recall many opining how inconsistent Kyle has been, that RG talked too much in pre-season and so on and so forth.

it is indisputable that this team has regressed - and the root causes lie in more areas than just one knee operation. all the buffoonery on STs? the continual dumb penalties? the obvious lack of focus? as in most situations the analysis probably leads in many directions with multiple causes. DG just pointed at the locker room and one area - leadership. I recall helo'ing into a battlegroup one time with a 3 Star who, in an unguarded moment, turned and stated(based on his 3 decades of experience): "I can tell within 5 minutes a well-run, well trained battle group". experience counts.

Do I personally think we are further along than what DG implicitly is talking about - the Dark Ages? yes. Do I think this season has been a disaster that needs to be assessed in order to set mid-course corrections? yes. Do I think this season places an asterisk after last season? yes. Per previous I think there are multiple causes...least of which is the unavoidable cost in first round picks and the avoidable/imposed cap hit. so the reasoning goes well beyond DG's remarks. I find his remarks to be rather tepid.

folks need to make up their minds: is this thread about whether there is adequate leadership (i.e., is DG correct)...or is this thread about whether DG is a boorish personality. if the latter, why not start a thread titled "Former Redskins stars we have grown to abhor/detest"? but separate the two. they aren't one and the same. or maybe a third thread (another separate theme in this thread): why former players should only say positive things about their former benefactors.

being a good/bad person when it comes to autographs, fan interactions, etc., has nothing to do with insights into leadership. One would think the legitimate response would have been "What? here are five examples of very credible leadership. It's there. What the heck is he talking about?"

fansince62 said:

well....opinions vary!

clearly through the first 3-4 games there was little to no leadership on defense. we know there is little to no leadership on STs. the offense? hard to say. I do recall many opining how inconsistent Kyle has been, that RG talked too much in pre-season and so on and so forth.

it is indisputable that this team has regressed - and the root causes lie in more areas than just one knee operation. all the buffoonery on STs? the continual dumb penalties? the obvious lack of focus? as in most situations the analysis probably leads in many directions with multiple causes. DG just pointed at the locker room and one area - leadership. I recall helo'ing into a battlegroup one time with a 3 Star who, in an unguarded moment, turned and stated(based on his 3 decades of experience): "I can tell within 5 minutes a well-run, well trained battle group". experience counts.

Do I personally think we are further along than what DG implicitly is talking about - the Dark Ages? yes. Do I think this season has been a disaster that needs to be assessed in order to set mid-course corrections? yes. Do I think this season places an asterisk after last season? yes. Per previous I think there are multiple causes...least of which is the unavoidable cost in first round picks and the avoidable/imposed cap hit. so the reasoning goes well beyond DG's remarks. I find his remarks to be rather tepid.

folks need to make up their minds: is this thread about whether there is adequate leadership (i.e., is DG correct)...or is this thread about whether DG is a boorish personality. if the latter, why not start a thread titled "Former Redskins stars we have grown to abhor/detest"? but separate the two. they aren't one and the same.

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This thread is about whatever members want it to be about. It's kind of amusing you'd throw that out there btw...you could turn a 'Best Deserts' thread into some kind of discussion about your world view (and I say that lovingly ).

My opinion - you are confusing performance with 'leadership'. Of course, leadership can drive performance, leadership is always essential to performance, and leadership is accountable for performance. And to some extent, leadership by example (such as that players could show through their own on-the-field performance) is critical and it could be argued we aren't seeing enough of it. However, leadership is NOT performance. I didn't start the thread. Nor am I hyperventilating about anything Green said. But I do think his comments are tinged with some jealousy over the attention Griffin gets. Just my opinion.

no offense taken - you have been and remain a star in my ever shrinking Universe (even when forced to threaten me with bans!!!)

I happen to agree with DG that there are leadership issues. heck, folks on this board have said as much when speaking about Lorenzo's departure. I think it is valid.

Most should know I have been the biggest homer for RG from day 1. But, we have seen some rough edges this season. I think DG is largely correct about leadership and just phrased it a bit wrong: instead of stating RG is young he should have stated that RG is just at the beginning and will, in time, mature into the unquestioned leader of this team. he should have then moved on to comment on where the other sources if leadership should be coming from. This isn't new material: both 92.7 and 106.7 radio shows have been making the same commentary over the last week or two.

fansince62 said:

no offense taken - you have been and remain a star in my ever shrinking Universe (even when forced to threaten me with bans!!!)

I happen to agree with DG that there are leadership issues. heck, folks on this board have said as much when speaking about Lorenzo's departure. I think it is valid.

Most should know I have been the biggest homer for RG from day 1. But, we have seen some rough edges this season. I think DG is largely correct about leadership and just phrased it a bit wrong: instead of stating RG is young he should have stated that RG is just at the beginning and will, in time, mature into the unquestioned leader of this team. he should have then moved on to comment on where the other sources if leadership should be coming from. This isn't new material: both 92.7 and 106.7 radio shows have been making the same commentary over the last week or two.

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I think that's a valid argument/concern. I've said myself that Griffin needs to learn to shut up. You don't have to answer every question posed to you - particularly when the 'media' is looking to stir the pot and create controversy which is certainly the case in DC. Griffin is learning some tough lessons. I guess I would argue that, in the grand scheme of things, we have strong leaders on this team. I don't know how we'll replace a guy like London on the defensive side of the ball, but for right now, we have authoritative voices in multiple places. We may not agree with what they are saying, but I think of all the things we should be concerned about with this team, I wouldn't count a lack of leadership amongst my top 10 concerns. That's just me though.

fair enough!

then, one has to ask, what is the source of all the penalties, dropped passes, poor ST play, etc? doesn't leadership step in at one point and state - "this and no more!" where are the results? why are Garcon and others talking to the media about insider stuff? one would think a team populated with strong, respected, authoritative leaders would not be subject to this sort of behavior on and off the field.

I guess I just see it differently. Over the long haul, poor play might be attributed to a lack of discipline, poor work habits, etc... all of which could indicate a lack of leadership. But the same guys who are playing poorly of late won 7 in a row to take the NFC East last year. Did they have good leaders last year and poor ones this season? How do you explain that?

We're playing poorly because we're playing poorly When we start playing better (it's already happening on the offensive side of the ball) I don't think it'll because team leadership suddenly began leading well. You mentioned Garcon and 'others' talking about insider stuff. There's been a little of that, but really, when you have the press beating on players 24/7, someone is eventually going to say something. But there's not even been a sniff of the kind of player revolt we've seen in the past, even as recently as with Clinton Portis, Albert Haynesworth, McNabb, etc... And do you know why we aren't seeing that?

Yep. Leadership.

Robert's a smart kid. If he goes off on these guys on the sideline, I think he knows the pundits will look at his performance this year (despite the other factors that have played into it) and shred him for jumping his guys without "carrying his weight."

I think that would be absolutely WRONG, if the media did judge it that way. But I think they would. And I think he's aware of that.

fansince62 said:

I look forward to the next post from those on this board who aren't in the lockerroom recommending the swift departure of Hazlett.

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Ha! Sarcasm of the week. I chuckled at this one fansince.

O.K., my opinion.

I think fansince has raised some valid points. Whether or not Green is a prototypical "nice guy" doesn't deprive him of the same rights any Redskins fan has to publicly voice his concerns and speculations about the causes of team problems-hell, we all do it all the time. I find the idea of his being a HOF ex-Redskins great placing him under some sort of "gag order" untenable. The population set of NFL players includes all the personality types you're likely to find in the general population, from the proverbial "Mr. Nice Guy" to the egotistical jerks-none of which pertains to their on-the-field greatness but we as fans have a tendency to both idealize and idolize them-placing them on a pedestal with an image we construct of an abstract "greatness" depriving them of the right to be human and having normal human failures. Green made the HOF because he was one of the greatest players in NFL history-period.

BTW, not one of us-even here-has failed to have the thought, after yet one more post by someone hammering contually on a specific area "What a jerk". A quick dismissal by assigning someone to a category of "personality type" and dismissing any arguments without question especially if it's one we don't like. It's called "Killing the messenger."

How Green treats fans, cameras and whatnot to me doesn't override the question of "Is he raising a valid concern here?"

He may be dead wrong, but it does seem to a plausible enough concern to be addressed.

Of course he's earned the right to speak his mind about this team, serv. No question about that. And as you correctly point out, so have we.

I would just like to turn the question around to Darrell if I could. What is it, exactly, that gives him the impression that Robert isn't a leader? Personally, I haven't seen him -- at any point -- say or do the "wrong" thing. When things are going well, he credits his teammates. When they're not, he takes responsibility. I don't know what else we can ask for.

As someone pointed out earlier, I think this is simply a case of questioning leadership when performance is the real issue.

My struggle with this whole thing is that leadership is not given, it's earned and learned. Nobody can walk into a brand new situation and be a positive leader. It takes development, it takes experience running headfirst into battle with your teammates. It takes the development of trust. It's a process, not a title. This notion that guys can come out of college and be immediate leaders is a mistake. Andrew Luck is an outlier here. He's the first pick in the draft for a reason.

Darrell is still a dick.

Nick

ntotoro said:

Darrell is still a dick.

Nick

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Agreed.

Back in '83, when I beat him in the 40yd dash, after spotting him 5 yards, he didn't even congratulate me.

You don't even want to get me started on what a dick Dave Butz was, after I beat him at arm wrestling......

Doc Walker and Brian Mitchell took Green's side.

What they essentially said was that he's a leader by example, but otherwise you just can't be a leader with 2 years experience; it's not possible. In addition to that, none of them believe he's that traditional, get in your face, put you in your place type leader that they normally think of as a leader (Walker cited Bowen as that kind of leader, and Trent Williams as possibly being that type of leader in the future)

Mitchell went on to say that Griffin needs to be careful. The commercials and celebrity is great for him and his financial situation, but it's not something that's respected in the locker room and if he doesn't back it all up on the field it can actually turn his guys against him (He wasn't saying he isn't backing it up, just saying it's something to be careful about.)

Maybe Green was just misunderstood or did a bad job explaining? Maybe these guys are backing someone they spent years being successful with? Maybe they're all right?

Maybe none of it matters?

Next up on the Fox NFL pregame- Darrell Green says RG3 is not the leader of the Redskins: We'll discuss.

Thanks Darrell.

As the great Joe Jackson Gibbs always says win and it all goes away. It's really the the only answer. It does cure all.