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DeAngelo Hall Released

I get tired of hearing about a downgrade. Then no specifics are given. What exactly are we missing out on, because there is no upside. People buy the **** out of the hype he generates with his mouth, because watching him play (every play, not the rare highlight) you can see he gets burned all day long by the vast majority of receivers.

There's a joke that says DeAngelo Hall couldn't cover the ground if he layed on it, that wasn't said for no reason. I can name a dozen things that are horrible about him, and rather than name specifics, all his supporters can do is respond with how they think it leaves a huge hole. Ok, well why? He doesn't cover short or intermediate because he lines up too far off the line of scrimmage. He can't cover deep, because he isn't smart enough and ends up getting toasted repeatedly. He can't tackle, and never attempts to. He costs us yards and points consistently.

He is an idiot and makes stupid decisions. Why can't anybody give me an upside about him? Even if you could, it would be nothing that could counteract the bad. A simple "I disagree, he's gonna leave a hole" doesn't cut it. Disagreeing is fine and dandy, but how can anyone with eyes disagree with the fact losing DeAngelo Hall is a step in the right direction?
 
.....So how would everyone feel if a humbled, recommitted D Hall came back at a substantially lower cost, something along the lines of his "true worth".

Is he such a liability that his locker room/on the field presence makes him worthless at any cost?

No skin off my back either way and I'm glad that the last vestiges of the Cerrato era are dwindling away but are D Hall's percieved shortcomings magnified only because of his inane contract and mouth?
 
I'm going to flesh this out in a blog soon, but I have a feeling that 2013 is going to be a tough year for the Redskins. That's due to the cap penalty, a very tough schedule (yeah, I know you never fully know if a schedule will turn out as tough or as easy as you believe, but it's a tough schedule), and the fact that we had to literally win out last year just to make the playoffs. I could see 8-8 and even sub .500 this year, and that's not even looking at who's under center.

Without the ridiculous cap penalty, we'd already have Hall's replacement and a major upgrade in place at corner. Failing to get Talib leaves a hole we have to fill. I don't know if the Skins are looking at someone else out there, whether they'll use a pick to draft one, or whether they are hoping Chase Minnifield, or someone else already on the roster shows exponential growth.

Football sense says Hall would be good insurance if you can't upgrade, but if you bring him back you have to do it cheaply and he'd demand to return as a starter. I think, despite our challenges at CB, you move on and stick with the decision. Any way you slice it, Mara and Goodell have stunted the Redskins growth, particularly our ability to shore up our secondary, with the cap penalty, and the truth is there's nothing we can do about it. We'll likely suffer for the next year or two because of it.
 
.....So how would everyone feel if a humbled, recommitted D Hall came back at a substantially lower cost, something along the lines of his "true worth".

Is he such a liability that his locker room/on the field presence makes him worthless at any cost?

No skin off my back either way and I'm glad that the last vestiges of the Cerrato era are dwindling away but are D Hall's percieved shortcomings magnified only because of his inane contract and mouth?

I don't think he can be effective without being a big contract guy. His ego wouldn't be able to handle it IMO. I think with lesser money he becomes more of a problem than a solution, but at this point I can see the FO resigning him. I hate that realization. :mad2:
 
With merriweather coming back and hopefully staying healthy it should get better

Problem is, that is a big, big, big, big IF

For that reason, I was totally against bringing him back in 2013.
But with our cap situation, I don't think we have a choice, or any better option, than taking another chance on him
 
I get tired of hearing about a downgrade. Then no specifics are given. What exactly are we missing out on, because there is no upside. People buy the **** out of the hype he generates with his mouth, because watching him play (every play, not the rare highlight) you can see he gets burned all day long by the vast majority of receivers.

There's a joke that says DeAngelo Hall couldn't cover the ground if he layed on it, that wasn't said for no reason. I can name a dozen things that are horrible about him, and rather than name specifics, all his supporters can do is respond with how they think it leaves a huge hole. Ok, well why? He doesn't cover short or intermediate because he lines up too far off the line of scrimmage. He can't cover deep, because he isn't smart enough and ends up getting toasted repeatedly. He can't tackle, and never attempts to. He costs us yards and points consistently.

He is an idiot and makes stupid decisions. Why can't anybody give me an upside about him? Even if you could, it would be nothing that could counteract the bad. A simple "I disagree, he's gonna leave a hole" doesn't cut it. Disagreeing is fine and dandy, but how can anyone with eyes disagree with the fact losing DeAngelo Hall is a step in the right direction?

One of two things is happening here. Either you have selective memory, or your hatred of Hall (stemming from his mouth?) clouds your memories. Look, I'm no huge fan of the guy. But to make the argument that he couldn't cover, and never tackled is hyperbole at best. Hall was actually a pretty good weakside blitzer when called upon, and was at times VERY good in coverage. I know you point to his attempts at stripping the ball as evidence he wasn't a good tackler, but there were plenty of times he made nice open field tackles on RBs that gained the edge. The dude was a solid CB. Not great. Possibly not even good. But definitely solid.

He couldn't back up his talk with his performance, and a lot of fans couldn't stand him because of that mouth. He wasn't worth his contract based on what other corners were making, I don't think anyone argues that. I'm gonna stop with this now, because I feel like I'm repeating myself, but here goes one more time.

Hall was either our best or second best corner on the team last year. Not having him means our already ****ty secondary got worse. I know your argument is that others behind him might have been better than he was, but he was taking their playing time thus preventing them from getting on the field, and us knowing if they were any good or not. My counter to that is that is a purely hypothetical argument that is unwinnable for either of us. I'd like to think that Shanahan would put the team in the best position to win, and therefore played the best players - and therefore would have replaced Hall if his play was the worst in the league as you suggest. He didn't, so I have my doubts that our bench players were better. Again, completely hypothetical and unwinnable.

The good news is that Hall wasn't a great player, so replacing him with an upgrade shouldn't be too terribly difficult. The bad news is that Mara is a ****ing douchbag, and has severely handicapped our ability to do so. My position is simply that our secondary is worse than it was two weeks ago; I think very probably it will get better before the season starts, and I think it even more likely that our secondary will be better than it was last season.

But right now it isn't.
 
The team apparently didn't hold him in the highest regard, or they'd have kept him, plain and simple. Hall played well, when he played well. He was also terrible at times. I'm not going to lose sleep over losing him personally.
 
One of two things is happening here. Either you have selective memory, or your hatred of Hall (stemming from his mouth?) clouds your memories. Look, I'm no huge fan of the guy. But to make the argument that he couldn't cover, and never tackled is hyperbole at best.
I assure you my memory of Hall is impeccable. His mouth actually didn't bother me, I could get by that if he was worth a damn, but he wasn't. I'm a TO fan, and a Chad Johnson fan, so obviously the jaw doesn't bother me. But they could back it up. Hall ran his mouth like he was good. It was the cockiness, not really the mouth that bothered me in that respect. Don't get burned for 40 yards, then run up the field, hit the guy as he's getting up, and talk **** like you did something. But he did that a lot.

And he couldn't tackle, because he never went for the stop, he ALWAYS went for the strip, to a fault. He couldn't help himself. He was so concerned with attempting to make a huge play, that he hurt the team by not making the play that needed to be made instead. A blown tackle will cost you a game just as often as a pic will win you won. This is something very basic and very important that DeAngelo Hall has still failed to learn in all his years in this league. This means one thing - he's stupid.

Hall was actually a pretty good weakside blitzer when called upon, and was at times VERY good in coverage.
Blitzing isn't a skill set coaches are picking and choosing their corners on. It's one of those added benefits that if you can get a good CB who can also blitz, so be it. Just like teams won't pass on a great RB just because he's a shoddy receiver. And Hall was rarely very good in coverage. Like I said earlier, he had 1-2 games per season where he'd light it up. And fans seemed to allow the other 14 games where he completely failed to show up slide, all for those 1-2 great games.

I know you point to his attempts at stripping the ball as evidence he wasn't a good tackler, but there were plenty of times he made nice open field tackles on RBs that gained the edge.
I'm talking specifically about his skills as a corner. The fact he's made solid hits on running backs is neither here nor there, his job was to cover receivers, and if he couldn't his job was to make sure they didn't score or get a first down. He was terrible at all of that. That would be like keeping a running back in the starting role with a 1.2 YPC average and 0 TD just because he's a phenomenal blocker. I simply said he isn't a good tackler, because he never goes for the tackle. Every team we played threw almost exclusively at Hall in comparison to our other corners. There was a reason for this. Our opponents liked their chances.

The dude was a solid CB. Not great. Possibly not even good. But definitely solid.
On a scale of 1-10, I'd be stretching to rate him a 5. That's not solid IMO.

Hall was either our best or second best corner on the team last year.
You can't make this claim. If not for his hissy fits he would have thrown, and his inflated contract, he likely would've had his ass planted on the bench. He did nothing. So if nobody else is given a chance (without Hall also lining up) there is no gauge to judge by.

Not having him means our already ****ty secondary got worse.
An assumption not based in reality ;)

I know your argument is that others behind him might have been better than he was, but he was taking their playing time thus preventing them from getting on the field, and us knowing if they were any good or not. My counter to that is that is a purely hypothetical argument that is unwinnable for either of us.
Which is what I've been saying. You are certain we will be worse without him. I a certain we can't get worse than the worst. There is nowhere to go but up.

I'd like to think that Shanahan would put the team in the best position to win, and therefore played the best players - and therefore would have replaced Hall if his play was the worst in the league as you suggest. He didn't, so I have my doubts that our bench players were better. Again, completely hypothetical and unwinnable.
Look at all the decisions Mike has made since he's been here. Until he gives me a reason to believe otherwise, I put zero faith in his game decisions. After all that crap with Haynesworthless, he still played him. Was that giving the team the best chance to win? He kept Portis far beyond his worth, he brought back Cooley, he kept starting Heyer, etc. He's not an idiot by any means, but just because he made a decision, it wasn't automatically the best one. Look how long it took him to give his son more control, and Kyle ended up proving he's likely to be a far better coach than his father.

The good news is that Hall wasn't a great player, so replacing him with an upgrade shouldn't be too terribly difficult. The bad news is that Mara is a ****ing douchbag, and has severely handicapped our ability to do so.
Can't argue that.

My position is simply that our secondary is worse than it was two weeks ago; I think very probably it will get better before the season starts, and I think it even more likely that our secondary will be better than it was last season.

But right now it isn't.
Only because we're down a roster spot, and for no other reason. Fill his spot with anybody, and we're better than we were 3 weeks ago, no matter who that player is.
 
The team apparently didn't hold him in the highest regard, or they'd have kept him, plain and simple. Hall played well, when he played well. He was also terrible at times. I'm not going to lose sleep over losing him personally.

This sums it up nicely - when he was on, he was on, and when he wasn't, he was terrible. The team definitely could have found a way to keep him, but they didn't. I think without the stupid penalties and breakdowns on the field he may still be around, but he pretty much sealed his fate with that ref altercation towards the end of last year.
 
I think there are two things that play a major role in the Hall Debate that cause both sides to be firm in their opinion of him and to miss the points of those that disagree with them.

1 - Hall played better last year, last year was probably his best year here (best year - he had a good few months when he first came here and was looking for a big contract, and he got it.) That's not to say he played great, or even good, but he played better. His tackling was much improved and he stepped up big in a few places. He also still had those repetitive mistakes. As Boone said - he played well, when he played well. His previous years seem to fuel majority of the criticism. Those years shouldn't be ignored, but it should all be taken in context. When one person says he wasn't that bad, they're likely referring to the past year, while another says he was awful they're probably referring to previous years. Both people are right, they're just arguing past each other about (slightly) different things.

2 - Assigning blame when a defense gives up a big play is nearly impossible unless you have the playbook, know what play was called, and have an understanding of assignments and how they can change. IE - it's impossible to do correctly majority of the time unless you're a coach or a player and are with the team 5 days a week and in the meeting room. If the other team has a 15 yard pass go for a 40 yard gain is it because the cornerback got caught peaking into the backfield and let his guy get away from him? Or is it because the safety was out of position and the CB released his man, as he was supposed to, and the blame really lies on the safety? Or was it just a really good play by the QB/WR and poor tackling from the guys around him? Or was it just flat out a bad defensive call and the other team took advantage of a big mismatch in terms of play calling? Maybe the CB's were only responsible for their guy for 3 seconds, and the pass rush was supposed to get to the QB or force a play by then; maybe the play design makes it impossible for a CB to cover the guy for 6 seconds, and the fault is really with the guys sent on the blitz? There are many more possibilities.

Not that it really matters because people that run their mouths bring the attention upon themselves on purpose - whether it's good or bad attention. It's the risk you take when you run your mouth. Hall probably got more criticism than he deserved, but he could have prevented that by acting like the majority of the rest of the team and keeping his mouth shut whether he played well or not.
 
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Very nice post tshile
 
T, I agree with most of what you said, but when I talk about Hall giving up huge plays, I mean the ones that are completely on him 100%. The ones where he lines up on a guy on 3rd and 20, and is running full speed at the receiver who catches it 10 yards shy.......then rather than go for the sure or pretty damn sure tackle, Hall is immediately thinking 6 the other way and going for the strip. As a result, Hall ends up running along side the receiver well past the first down marker until either a) a TD is scored, or b) a different player comes in and makes the play. 20 yards too late. And the real pisser is, he NEVER gets the strip, but it doesn't stop him from trying. And as blind as a lot of fans seem to be to this, if he ever did get the strip, it would by him a whole extra season here.

Hall does this **** ALL THE TIME. It isn't exactly an isolated incident, because he does it in nearly every single game he has ever played in. That isn't anything about being out of position or blowing coverage, that's caring more about personal glory than team achievement. And every time Hall does this, how does he follow it up? By laying on a cheap shot and getting flagged, and running his mouth the whole way off the field.
 
The guy makes good plays and he makes bad plays. People tend to remember the bad plays when they dont like the player .... especially when he's getting paid a lot. Happened all the time when Portis was here.

If Hall was so awful that his nobody backups could do better Shanahan would have Albert Haynesworthed him. Salary is not bulletproof vest with this coach.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
 
Seems like the team would be interested in bringing Hall back.
Anyone know if Hall is equally open to that idea ?
Other question, and this is for the "Hall Haters" : under what condition and contract, would you be willing to bring him back ? Anything more than Vet Min ?
 
Adding up the pluses and minuses-and there were both-I think it's likely the amount of money keeping him would have cost that moved him from "need to keep" to "like to keep but even a restructure would have cost too much" status. Releasing Hall has one of the biggest impacts on available cap space and with the limitations on the amount gained by the already done restructures and potential restructures and possible releases it was a decision that seems almost inevitable in its necessity.

Exactly. Had to be done the way it was done.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
 
Hall was not worth the $4M figure being floated around. Unless we were willing to give Williams a 7 year extension and backload it outrageously then Hall had to go if you wanted to see some of the other players resigned.
 
Seems like the team would be interested in bringing Hall back.
Anyone know if Hall is equally open to that idea ?
Other question, and this is for the "Hall Haters" : under what condition and contract, would you be willing to bring him back ? Anything more than Vet Min ?

I would take him back if he pissed in a fountain with Jason Bateman, Ryan Reynolds, the Ghost of Sean Taylor, Ed Reed and Dashon Golston while taking veteran minimum with no incentives.
 
Scenarios where I wouldn't mind having him back.....

1. Don't just anoint him the starter because he tells you how great he is. Sign him for the vet minimum, and make him work his way up the depth chart. If he knows he's the starter no matter what, nothing will change.

2. Try him at a couple of other positions where I honestly believe he would be a better player than he is at corner. Receiver and returner come to mind.

3. Make him aware there is a zero tolerance policy for stupidity, and stick to it. Have his contract voidable from any infraction of idiocy.

Signing him for any amount as the outright starter just isn't acceptable.
 
I think we need to go in a different direction.

With Hall it was just not the money. It was the blown coverages at key times as well as his penchant for penalties and having a big mouth.

Hall thinks being loud is being a leader.

It isn't. In many ways Hall is a distraction.
 

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