A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Round 1

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  1. #24421

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Well, so long as he kid wins, I really doesn't matter.
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    "Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and **** the prom queen"

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    We all know that Doug Williams mouth is only minimally controlled by his brain. I wouldn’t seize on anything he says and try to dissect it or draw grand meaning from it, whether positively or negatively. He just doesn’t think before he speaks and is oblivious that word choice matters when you are a public face of the team.


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  3. #24423
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    Did you really expect anything different?

    Look for someone from the team to come out to clarify this statement from Doug to keep up the front, but it's been about marketing since the kid was drafted. In the DC market, Dwayne Haskins will sell more than Keenum...by sell more I mean jerseys, tickets, and anything else Dan is trying to push.

    I don't see any Case Keenum jerseys in the following...
    This depends muchly on how smart and patient we think Snyder will be. (I'm aware that's a loaded question! :P )

    Pushing Haskins to start right now may generate buzz and revenue at the front door, but is that sustainable if the kid loses and looks bad for those first 5 or 6 games leading him to be replaced by Colt or Keenum?

    The Skin's fanbase can turn pretty quickly from excitement to sour if not handled right.

    Snyder will be well aware of how empty FedEx looked last year and rightly want's to be able to pull in asses to put on seats. So yes there may be a drive to get that done from day 1. But that does him no good if by mid season the kid is shell shocked and broken because he should really have sat. Now I don't think Haskins is RGIII, but I'd like to believe that Management learned some lessons from that mess. I'm fairly sure they'll all be very careful not to want another QB flameout situation.

    What Snyder should be looking at is not how many seats he can fill for the season opener, but how he can best put the team into a position to sustain that moving forwards. For that we need a Franchise QB that has the love of the fanbase for the next decade. If we can start winning consistently and be a perennial play off contender then the attendance issue will sort itself out. The stadium will naturally fill up.

    So the question should really be is Snyder looking short term or long term? You'd hope, after years of bitter experience, that he'd have learned by now that in Football you need to look long term. His quick fixes have almost always failed.

    Of course all this will be a moot point if Haskins shows in pre-season that he's by far the best option to start. The stuff he's struggling with could all be fixed over the next few months and his talent will out.
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  4. #24424

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Honestly - the ‘rookie will implode or experience a permanent set back if he starts right away’ idea is vastly overblown imho. I’m not hearing anyone here make that argument, but it’s commonly made on social media. Griffin was poorly equipped to start as a rookie (beyond some serious physical talent) and it wasn’t a disaster. He ultimately failed because he couldn’t read a defense with a gun held to his head and because he was incapable of self-preservation. But even as a limited rookie it was fine.

    There are 2 reasons Haskins could be named starter. Firstly, it could happen because Gruden and the offensive coaches feel he gives us a better chance to score points (even if he might also be more likely to make some rookie mistakes). The other reason would be the one Elephant is suggesting.

    We’ll never know which it is if it happens and I don’t know that it ultimately matters. Rookies routinely get thrown into the fire. Whether they drown or thrive - not sure it has a whole lot to do with how protected they were early on. I tend to think it is a lot more dependent on their native skills and whether or not it clicks upstairs for them.

    A rookie is going to be a rookie no matter when they get their chance. There are those that think you can learn a lot standing on the sidelines. I’m not sure I buy it. And there’s not a lot of modern evidence that’s the best approach - because teams rarely go that route.


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  5. #24425
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Knightingale View Post
    This depends muchly on how smart and patient we think Snyder will be. (I'm aware that's a loaded question! :P )

    Pushing Haskins to start right now may generate buzz and revenue at the front door, but is that sustainable if the kid loses and looks bad for those first 5 or 6 games leading him to be replaced by Colt or Keenum?

    The Skin's fanbase can turn pretty quickly from excitement to sour if not handled right.
    I'm sorry but if you think Dan Snyder has a true grasp of the disdain from the fans, you're mistaken...especially as the team maintains a top 5 ranking in most valuable franchises.

    I know Dan Snyder wants to win, I do not doubt that at all...but after 20 years as the owner of this team, if fans cannot see the bottom line is more important than winning, I am just not sure what you guys are watching.

    I'm not even saying Haskins is going to fail when given the opportunity to start the first game of the season, I'm not sure. I don't think he will be the success many think he will be, but that is yet to be determined.

    What I am saying, and I have been screaming it from the rooftop for about 5 years now that I stopped being an apologist for Dan Snyder...Haskins starts because he is now the face of the franchise. Gruden had some leverage to say no to RG3 when Snyder wanted him behind center to sell jerseys, but has none now. They will force Haskins in there deserved or not.
    Last edited by Elephant; 06-27-19 at 11:44 AM.
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  6. #24426
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Not arguing with any of what you guys have said.

    Point I’m trying to make is that Snyder is above all a business man and this is a business.

    If he’s a smart business man he’d be looking to a strategy that provides a long term cash flow into his coffers, not a potential short term boost followed by a crash if it all goes wrong.

    What he NEEDS is fans to get invested long term. He needs fans in seats not just for a few early games this year.... but every game into the foreseeable future. He needs fans to be buying Haskins merchandise for years going forwards.

    Don’t get me wrong, I agree with Boone. Haskins isn’t RGIII. I think he has the tools to be successful in this league beyond anything RGIII achieved.

    But I’m not sure arguing that Haskins is the starter on Day 1 plays into any long game strategy to make money. We know Snyder isn’t going anywhere, he’s in this for the long haul. It’s in his best interests to make sure the franchise is profitable for the long haul.




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  7. #24427

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    You guys are really overthinking it. Highly drafted NFL QBs nearly always start immediately. There are always exceptions, notably when there is a veteran who is on the way out (Mahommes sitting for a year while Alex Smith finished up in KC, Jones will likely sit for a year while Eli wraps up his career). But largely, the big time rookie QB gets thrown into the fire right away.

    So if it happens with us in 2019, it may be a lot less about Dan Snyder than it is simply being the modern norm.


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  8. #24428
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    You guys are really overthinking it. Highly drafted NFL QBs nearly always start immediately. There are always exceptions, notably when there is a veteran who is on the way out (Mahommes sitting for a year while Alex Smith finished up in KC, Jones will likely sit for a year while Eli wraps up his career). But largely, the big time rookie QB gets thrown into the fire right away.

    So if it happens with us in 2019, it may be a lot less about Dan Snyder than it is simply being the modern norm.


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    LOL I'm just chipping in on the speculation.

    My personal opinion... We'll find out in Training Camp. If Keenum looks like the better option he'll start. If Haskins looks even close to Keenum he'll get the nod.

    Currently I think I lean towards Haskins starting. I think he has time to correct the issues we saw in OTA's. He seems like the type that will have spent the intervening weeks studying and getting ready to hit the ground running at Training Camp. I think perhaps he starts off a little behind Colt and Keenum, but as he gets reps and exposure to the NFL game through pre-season we'll see that gap narrow until it's close enough that he may as well get his feet wet straight away.

    I think there would have to be a big disparity between him and Keenum in Keenum's favour in order to see Keenum start.

    As for Colt... I think he's done in DC.

    While Keenum is not a great QB, he did have a very solid 2017 in minny. That year may have been an outlier, but it's more than Colt has ever done in his career.
    Colt can't stay healthy, whenever he's had a shot he's either been passed over or been hurt.

    They're not going to drop Haskins. I can't see them dropping Colt. And I'm not sure they carry three QB's into the season. Colt seems the odd man out to me unless he makes a case during pre-season that makes him impossible to ignore.
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  9. #24429

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    You guys are really overthinking it. Highly drafted NFL QBs nearly always start immediately. There are always exceptions, notably when there is a veteran who is on the way out (Mahommes sitting for a year while Alex Smith finished up in KC, Jones will likely sit for a year while Eli wraps up his career). But largely, the big time rookie QB gets thrown into the fire right away.

    So if it happens with us in 2019, it may be a lot less about Dan Snyder than it is simply being the modern norm.


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    Because they are drafted by highly bad teams. Skins are not in this situation. As an aside, following the pack rarely appealed to me.
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  10. #24430

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Not about following the pack Al. I think it's become common place because most coaches believe the best way to get experience is to get experience. The rookie contract rules also promote getting rookies out there as soon as possible because the quicker you get a youngster acclimated and proficient, the more production you're going to get out of him while he's on an incredibly affordable rookie deal (see Kirk Cousins).

    I'm with Knight almost entirely. I have no issue with either guy starting and I think you can not only make an argument either way, but it may well work out (or not) either way. The only argument I have in the discussion is that it's a forgone conclusion that Haskins will start. If Keenum looks great and Haskins struggles from Training Camp on - I have zero doubt they'll sit Haskins and go with the veteran.
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  11. #24431
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    Y
    So if it happens with us in 2019, it may be a lot less about Dan Snyder than it is simply being the modern norm.


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    Why do you continue to remain in denial about one single undeniable truth? Dan Snyder is more concerned with the bottom line than anything else. There is a 20 year body of evidence to prove such.

    Every single time there is waning attendance at FedEx Field, or a drop in jersey sales, he'll find someone to market, and go with it, making decisions based on revenue rather than winning.

    He did it with Deion Sanders, Steve Spurrier, Joe Gibbs, Donovan McNabb, RG3, just to name a few, and now when he forces Gruden to start Haskins...rinse, wash, repeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    The only argument I have in the discussion is that it's a forgone conclusion that Haskins will start.
    I just don't understand how you can argue against it...there is a body of evidence to prove Snyder has done this.

    Look, when Gruden was first hired the QB position was the subject of contention that Gruden had to battle in the press to finally win.

    Now that he has no leverage, he's had 5 years and is lucky to get a 6th, they'll just fire hime if he tries to pull that stunt again.
    Last edited by Elephant; 06-27-19 at 10:39 PM.
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  12. #24432
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Unless Keenum shits the bed in camp and preseason I'd rather he start over Haskins, regardless if DH lights it up in camp or not. Our o-line is a huge question mark thanks to a combo of Trent and bad GM'ing. Case knows what pressure looks like more so than the rookie does now. It's what we got Keenum for anyways, especially while the o-line shakes out.

    Dwayne is the 2020 starter regardless. Hell maybe Keenum plays lights out all season and we get a great deal in trade or comp pick for his service.
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  13. #24433

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Brian... I get your point I don’t think it’s as absolute as you make it out to be. I don’t buy the ‘Gruden is a lame duck who is powerless’ argument. If anything, a new coach with is first HC-ing gig is under more pressure to ‘go along’ with ownership than a guy in the last year of his contract.

    I also think that the idea that only the coach gets to have an opinion on the plan for a top pick rookie QB is naive. There’s not a GM or owner in the NFL that wouldn’t have some interest or input into that. It’s a matter of degree.

    You acknowledged that Snyder wants to win and that it’s not just about the almighty dollar. If the entire coaching staff feels Keenum has to be the guy starting out because Haskins isn’t ready, I think that’s what will happen.




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  14. #24434

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    Default Random Redskins Thoughts

    Steve Spurriers snippet on Haskins...

    https://omny.fm/shows/the-morning-bl...aldi-former-re

    Starts at about the 10:30 mark. He says he did not get to ‘pick his own QB’ his 2nd season. Since Ramsey got the nod, I’d assume Spurrier wanted Tim Hasselback to start instead and got overruled. Interesting...

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    Last edited by Boone; 06-28-19 at 01:35 PM.
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  15. #24435

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    Not about following the pack Al. I think it's become common place because most coaches believe the best way to get experience is to get experience. The rookie contract rules also promote getting rookies out there as soon as possible because the quicker you get a youngster acclimated and proficient, the more production you're going to get out of him while he's on an incredibly affordable rookie deal (see Kirk Cousins).

    I'm with Knight almost entirely. I have no issue with either guy starting and I think you can not only make an argument either way, but it may well work out (or not) either way. The only argument I have in the discussion is that it's a forgone conclusion that Haskins will start. If Keenum looks great and Haskins struggles from Training Camp on - I have zero doubt they'll sit Haskins and go with the veteran.
    Boone...not messing with ya....but I just don't believe your argument holds water. You made a statistical claim (which, btw, I haven't had time to verify) that most teams start high QB drafts right off the bat. And I countered that this was only one variable - these also very likely were very bad teams with no QB options and wrestling with fan discontent. None of this applies to the Skins (well, maybe the fan part). Not only that, there are obvious counters (Mahomes, Rodgers).

    I've said my piece. No way a college QB, no matter how talented, is ready after only one year of competitive experience. No chance against the teams we face in the initial 5 games. From a risk/career management pov it just makes no sense. But...this is the Redskins! Decision by committee - yea, that ought to work well!
    Last edited by fansince62; 06-28-19 at 05:28 PM.
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  16. #24436
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    Brian... I get your point I don’t think it’s as absolute as you make it out to be. I don’t buy the ‘Gruden is a lame duck who is powerless’ argument. If anything, a new coach with is first HC-ing gig is under more pressure to ‘go along’ with ownership than a guy in the last year of his contract.
    You're arguing against yourself here...I believe when the RG3 or Cousins argument was under way with Gruden, you stated Gruden had the upper hand because Snyder didn't want to just fire a guy after 1 season with Gruden's "pedigree" and the coaching carousel we had here. I agreed then.

    Not clear why they gave Gruden one more year to prove himself, I think we saw enough after 5 years, but Gruden has no more leverage. He's a veteran coach now with not much success...an overall losing record in 5 years does not warrant more time to prove himself for the sake of "stability."

    He's had 5 years, that's why I think they are going to make him start Haskins, or fire him early on if Case Keenum doesn't win IF Case gets the nod as you believe. If we have not won more than 3 games in the first half of the season, I bet Gruden gets fired by week 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    I also think that the idea that only the coach gets to have an opinion on the plan for a top pick rookie QB is naive. There’s not a GM or owner in the NFL that wouldn’t have some interest or input into that. It’s a matter of degree.

    You acknowledged that Snyder wants to win and that it’s not just about the almighty dollar. If the entire coaching staff feels Keenum has to be the guy starting out because Haskins isn’t ready, I think that’s what will happen.
    I think you'd agree we're not dealing with rational here...Dan Snyder is clearly one of the worst owners in the history of the NFL for winning percentages with 20 years behind him. Like I said, I admit I think he wants to win...I also think he cares more about the bottom line. There is no middle ground here...money is the biggest motivating factor for Snyder.
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  17. #24437

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    Boone...not messing with ya....but I just don't believe your argument holds water. You made a statistical claim (which, btw, I haven't had time to verify) that most teams start high QB drafts right off the bat. And I countered that this was only one variable - these also very likely were very bad teams with no QB options and wrestling with fan discontent. None of this applies to the Skins (well, maybe the fan part). Not only that, there are obvious counters (Mahomes, Rodgers).

    I've said my piece. No way a college QB, no matter how talented, is ready after only one year of competitive experience. No chance against the teams we face in the initial 5 games. From a risk/career management pov it just makes no sense. But...this is the Redskins! Decision by committee - yea, that ought to work well!
    The schedule is tough starting out (at least on paper). But that's true no matter who is under center. I'm not sure Case Keenum is a sure fire cure for that reality If you watch NFL football, I don't need to run the numbers. Highly drafted QBs generally start immediately, or very soon in their rookie year. The exceptions are fairly obvious (you can call them 'counter arguments' but the fact remains, those are the exceptions). I'd argue those players would've been successful as rookie starters too. I think that's a pretty safe bet. So if you don't believe it - do the work and run the stats. You seem to be arguing that only bad teams do that. And that the Redskins aren't a bad team.

    I'm trying to understand the argument...

    Doesn't that argue that the Redskins starting a rookie QB with a pretty good roster around him is LESS risky than usual? You seem to be arguing the opposite. It's 100% valid to look at Haskins single year as a college starter as a concern. Absolutely I agree with that. But the fact that he didn't just survive that challenge, but absolutely lit it up - and against some of the best talent in the country - that's information that should also be considered.
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  18. #24438

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    You're arguing against yourself here...I believe when the RG3 or Cousins argument was under way with Gruden, you stated Gruden had the upper hand because Snyder didn't want to just fire a guy after 1 season with Gruden's "pedigree" and the coaching carousel we had here. I agreed then.

    Not clear why they gave Gruden one more year to prove himself, I think we saw enough after 5 years, but Gruden has no more leverage. He's a veteran coach now with not much success...an overall losing record in 5 years does not warrant more time to prove himself for the sake of "stability."

    He's had 5 years, that's why I think they are going to make him start Haskins, or fire him early on if Case Keenum doesn't win IF Case gets the nod as you believe. If we have not won more than 3 games in the first half of the season, I bet Gruden gets fired by week 10.



    I think you'd agree we're not dealing with rational here...Dan Snyder is clearly one of the worst owners in the history of the NFL for winning percentages with 20 years behind him. Like I said, I admit I think he wants to win...I also think he cares more about the bottom line. There is no middle ground here...money is the biggest motivating factor for Snyder.
    I think you are so 'disillusioned' and 'down' on the NFL (and the Redskins in particular) that you are impervious to any other perspective - but I love you anyway I didn't say Gruden had no leverage in the RG3 situation. In fact, I'm not even talking about 'leverage'. I'm talking about motivation. Unless you think that Gruden is so damn desperate to retain an NFL head coaching job, he'll submit to any indignity imaginable, I just don't see him allowing ownership to tell him who to start on his own roster. Sorry. I just don't. Period. As I said before, if the Redskins do decide to start Haskins in Week 1, you'll be certain it was because Snyder mandated it, while I'll believe it is mostly because Gruden thinks that's who gives them the best chance to win. No amount of discussion is going to sway you on that. Likewise - if that happens and Haskins plays like...gasp... a rookie at times, you'll shout to the rooftops that you were right and how you were the only one who saw it coming. I'll say that those are the growing pains of starting a rookie.

    I say all that not because I'm not aware of the Redskins history, or who Daniel Snyder may or may not be. But because I believe the situation is fluid and driven by multiple factors. I don't believe in caricatures - and I think the picture you are painting is too simplistic and one-sided. I know you disagree.

    Btw... the point I made a few days ago seems to have been either missed or ignored. Take your worst case scenario. A physically talented rookie QB, highly drafted and the new 'face of the franchise', isn't ready to start. He can't read a defense. He's prone to mistakes. And there's huge pressure to start him.

    I'm not talking about Haskins. I'm talking RG3 in 2012.

    We started him.

    He wasn't perfect. He wasn't close to perfect. And we won the NFC East and nearly won a playoff game. Hardly disaster. And in my estimation, Haskins is a far superior prospect than Griffin ever was. So what the hell are we so afraid of?
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  19. #24439

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Reading back through the discussion (which honestly, we could have started a separate thread about and probably should have) - it's all kind of silly given that the decision will be made, that we'll never know what factors most drove it, and we will live with it as fans no matter which way it goes and the result. Even I am aware of our history of Front Office and ownership dysfunction and interference in football decision-making. I do believe that Snyder has learned some things, albeit having taken an extended period. The patience he has demonstrated with Gruden (whether or not you think it's been warranted or not) has been pretty remarkable given his tendency to clean house every 2-3 years. I think adding Doug Williams, although you could look at the cynically as him resurrecting a Skins legend to make fans happy, was a good move and one intended to get more real 'football people' in decision-making position, even if it's probably true that Allen ultimately has to approve all big decisions. One thing does irk me a little, and it's probably why I push back at some of the cynicism regarding our Front Office (and probably makes me sound like much more of an apologist and 'believer' in Snyder, Allen, and Company than I ever have been in reality)... And that's the idea that ONLY our Front Office is involved in football operations. There's not a Team President or GM in the league, or an NFL Owner anywhere, that is entirely separated from football-related decisions. They all play a part to some degree - it's just a matter of how big or small a part they play, and how publicly or quietly they do so. Sometimes it sounds like the Redskins are the only team in the league that has anyone other than the Head Coach is making decisions.
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    The defense will dictate the season's success more than who's the starting QB week 1.

    Be nice to hold teams under 20pts per game. Takes a lot of pressure off of any QB.

    BTW, Gruden's decisions warrant having extra input from everyone else in the room. But if he allows anyone to control who he starts, it would just show how weak of a leader he really is. It's Gruden's job to make the choice, and then sell it to higher ups. Every team in the league discusses their starting lineup. Coaches who haven't won anything have a harder time convincing management that they know what the hell they're doing. Gruden doesn't inspire confidence.

    And, I give the drunk more credit for shelving Griffin than Gruden.
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