Random Commanders Thoughts

MikeSr619 said:

really? Sorry man, but you are now drudging the bottom of your argument bucket trying to say that we could have 5 running backs go down. Or that you knew Pierre Thomas would walk right in and perform like he did and perform like he did considering he played 5 games last year with a total of 15 carries between 2 different teams is reaching way down.

You keep going back to this magical 4th round pick like you think we would have hit with it. Lets say we did hit...with a WR or even with a OL. what about the running game? Jones is still injured and fumbling, Thompson is still injured a primarily 3rd down back, and Redd is still out with an achilles. What then? Do we just make Cousins who is barely coming off his horrible start and trying not to F things up throw the ball 50 times? This "plug and play" mentality works on Madden but not in the NFL. You have to have a running back who is comfortable in the system, knows the players and their tendencies, and who can get something going. Depending on a draft pick to immediately hit isn't usually the case in the 4th round.

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These are good points, but they aren't necessarily written in stone. We probably saw more turmoil at the RB position around the league this year than any year in recent history. Teams were pulling players out of nowhere, many of them older vets, to come in and run the ball. Tim Hightower even came back and ran the rock this season for New Orleans.

And if it wasn't a Tim Hightower, then a lot of teams found success with the RBBC approach--like Denver. New England lives by second tier RBs and RBBC.

Would they have been as good as Alfred? I'd guess probably not. Although Pierre Thomas was pretty good.

In the bigger picture, I guess I just believe that Scot had little belief in Alfred based upon his actions before preseason even began. And if that is correct, then I'd value a 4th round pick for a rebuilding team going forward over one season with a RB he didn't intend to keep.

Neophyte said:

What I find amusing was when we drafted Morris there was a lot of head scratching because he was NOT a ZB back in college. He came from a tradition power run game and everyone wondered if he could adapt to a ZB system under Shanahan. Now everyone calls him a ZB back and says he can't run in the more traditional system used by Gruden/Callahan.

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Maybe Alfred is close to what everybody thought he was. A sixth round draft pick from a traditional running scheme.

Then he got into Shanny's ZB scheme, and he appeared to be a first or second round talent.

I hate Shanny, but he turned some absolutely awful RBs into 1,000 yard runners at Denver.

Maybe in a traditional scheme, Alfred is really more like a fourth or fifth round, more expensive talent. And Scot believed Matt Jones was a second or third round talent for that system.

Henry said:

What I'm hearing is basically "We had a crappy run game with Morris. We could have had a crappy run game without him."

And that may be true.

However, front offices don't think that way. They can't think that way.

They have to think "which players give us the best chance to win" and go from there. No front office on this planet would go into a season with a rookie with a history of injury problems, and super-fragile third down back who had never lasted more than four games in a season and ... well that's it. No one would do that.

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Actually, I think the Rams did exactly that. A rookie, Gurley, who had an ACL last year, and no one decent behind him.

But that's neither here nor there. No one wants to be the Rams.

A lot of teams (Dallas) came into the season with a makeshift group of RBs.

Players were out there, even if they were only temporary fixes. Pierre Thomas and even Tim Hightower came back from the dead to play certain roles. Is that an ideal situation? No way. But we aren't talking about QBs here either.

It just comes down to a person's philosophy. If I'm Scot in the first year of a rebuild, I want to rebuild aggressively.

I want guys under 25 and I want draft picks. As many draft picks as possible--especially with his talent for using them.

If it comes down to one season with a guy I really don't see being with us in the future (speculation) or a fourth round pick that might be here eight years? Give me the pick for a rebuilding team.

MikeSr619 said:

Pierre Thomas had 52 yards rushing and 84 yards receiving in 5 games. that is 10 yards per game running and 17 receiving. You think Morris was bad but Thomas was pretty good?

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I don't think Morris has ever been bad.

I think he's great in a ZB scheme, and average in a power blocking scheme.

Pierre Thomas is too old, but I think he's a smart player and I like what he brings to the passing game. He's also a very good blocker.

I dont think Kirk survives without Alfred back there, particularly early on. I really don't think we make the playoffs with Jones starting the whole season.

So, if you're really ok with trading the playoffs experience for a 4th... Uh... I don't have much of an argument for you.

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I said it all season long, Alfred Morris was off this year. I do not know why, but I think it had to be some lingering injury that was never properly dealt with, he looked smaller than in years past, and for whatever reason, Alfred Morris did not hit the hole head on as he has in the past.

I still remember looking at this RB on the sideline at the Dolphins opener and could not recognize him, because I could not see the whole number. He looked small...then I realized it was Alfred. I attended well over 20 games with him as the starter on this team and he looked significantly smaller this season.

What stood out the most to me all season long was that the OL created holes, but Alfred missed too many of them, and often hesitated before hitting the hole that was provided...that he did recognize. Maybe it was simply adjusting to a run scheme that demanded hitting the hole fast and early, instead of being patient until the hole opened up...I have no idea. But Alfred Morris did not play like he had the previous 3 seasons. And since he had more success last year than this year, it makes me wonder if scheme and adjustment to said scheme, was the real problema.

I don't know. What I do know is that I want to see him succeed here, but have come to the realization that he will not be on the roster in September.

However, RB is the one position that can easily be replaced, I mean our starting RB for the past 4 season was a 6th round pick.

Goaldeje said:

I dont think Kirk survives without Alfred back there, particularly early on. I really don't think we make the playoffs with Jones starting the whole season.

So, if you're really ok with trading the playoffs experience for a 4th... Uh... I don't have much of an argument for you.

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Based on what? Whatever the reasons, Morris was below average almost all year long. Jones had his issues as well. But he was certainly no worse than Almo, who was borderline terrible. 'Playoff experience' - I don't know what that means when we're talking about a running back. I think a lot of you guys, like me, are Morris fans. But he's not the same guy he was early in his career and he's absolutely not some irreplaceable part. We'll see what his value is soon, but I think many are placing that value based on his first two years. He's not that guy anymore. Whether he ever can be again - that remains to be seen.

Boone said:

Based on what? Whatever the reasons, Morris was below average almost all year long. Jones had his issues as well. But he was certainly no worse than Almo, who was borderline terrible. 'Playoff experience' - I don't know what that means when we're talking about a running back. I think a lot of you guys, like me, are Morris fans. But he's not the same guy he was early in his career and he's absolutely not some irreplaceable part. We'll see what his value is soon, but I think many are placing that value based on his first two years. He's not that guy anymore. Whether he ever can be again - that remains to be seen.

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The Redskins initially focused on the run game to protect Cousins while he got comfortable as the starter. There's no way we could have been a run-heavy team like that without Morris. If nothing else, he was durable. He accounted for 50% of our yards on the ground, stayed on the field and didn't turn the ball over. Which, early on, was at the very least somewhat helpful. Outside of catching the ball out of the backfield, Jones absolutely was worse than Morris in every other respect. Jones had trouble staying on the field, had trouble holding onto the ball, and averaged 3.4 yards per carry. Funny how everyone apparently trusts the judgement of the front office, yet all season long openly wondered why Morris was still getting the starts. Clearly there was a reason other than sentimentality. There simply was no one else to do it.

Had we coupled Jones with spot-duty players like Pierre Thomas or Tim Hightower, I suspect Cousins would not have had even those first few games to find his sea legs, and we may have ended up with yet another shell shocked QB.

The difference in yards per carry was negligible - that's hair splitting Henry. 3.4 yds vs. 3.7 yds. And Jones had the better yards per carry average the first half of the season which undercuts your argument. I'm not dissing Almo. We struggled with the run game beyond the first few games seemingly no matter who was in the run game. But arguing that Jones wasn't as effective in the ground game (setting aside fumbling issues which he has to fix) isn't really supported by the facts. And discounting 300+ reception yards (in 3 fewer games) to Almo's paltry 50 some - I don't buy it. Having a RB who can be a receiving outlet is just as impactful in protecting the QB as a solid running game. I'm not arguing that Jones was vastly superior to Almo - more explosive, yes, but his turnovers negated any advantage. But making statements that we wouldn't have made the playoffs if it had been Jones back there the majority of the time, sorry, I think that's hard to support. That's the point I'm arguing.

McD5 said:

Actually, I think the Rams did exactly that. A rookie, Gurley, who had an ACL last year, and no one decent behind him.

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Gurley was a first round pick. You don't draft a player #10 overall and not expect him to start.

The Rams had not had a 1000 yard rusher since 2012. We had a guy who had just come off his third 1000 yard season in a row.

There is nothing similar about our situation and that of the Rams. Let alone anything close to 'exact.'

A lot of teams (Dallas) came into the season with a makeshift group of RBs.

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The Cowboys desperately needed a dependable RB this year. Losing Murray killed them almost as much as losing Romo. Had they had a legitimate threat in the backfield, they may have been able to survive when Romo went down. Unfortunately, for all their supposed talent, without Romo and Murray they had nothing that scared opposing defenses. I'm kind of surprised you'd bring Dallas up. Their example is EXACTLY why you don't try and rely on crap RBs if you don't have to.

Players were out there, even if they were only temporary fixes. Pierre Thomas and even Tim Hightower came back from the dead to play certain roles. Is that an ideal situation? No way. But we aren't talking about QBs here either.

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Pierre Thomas had like three good plays all season. I know they stick in our minds because they helped us down the stretch, but let's please stop pretending his contributions were any more than minimal. Is he coming back this year? Both he and Hightower came in at the end of the season to play a few games. That's nice, but there's a big difference between doing that and coming in at the start of the season. What you are talking about the Redskins tried themselves in 2010. Remember back then we had 'the greatest RBs corp of 2006' with Larry Johnson, Clinton Portis and, who was it, Willie Parker? Yeah that was awesome, we ended up leaning on a rookie FA en route to the 30th best running game in the league. It took us two more years after that to find a starting quality RB. That's not a temporary fix. That's a temporary disaster.

It just comes down to a person's philosophy. If I'm Scot in the first year of a rebuild, I want to rebuild aggressively.

I want guys under 25 and I want draft picks. As many draft picks as possible--especially with his talent for using them.

If it comes down to one season with a guy I really don't see being with us in the future (speculation) or a fourth round pick that might be here eight years? Give me the pick for a rebuilding team.

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4th round pick or find out if the three-time 1000-yard player who's already on the team can continue to produce for the team in the future, while making the playoffs, protecting your QB for whom your coach stuck out his vulnerable neck, and making the playoffs? You think if we'd gone, say, 6-10 or so Gruden would be back this year? You willing to risk KNOWING your coach will have no running game for a 4th round pick?

I don't think it's quite that cut-and-dried.

Boone said:

The difference in yards per carry was negligible - that's hair splitting Henry. 3.4 yds vs. 3.7 yds. And Jones had the better yards per carry average the first half of the season which undercuts your argument. I'm not dissing Almo. We struggled with the run game beyond the first few games seemingly no matter who was in the run game. But arguing that Jones wasn't as effective in the ground game (setting aside fumbling issues which he has to fix) isn't really supported by the facts. And discounting 300+ reception yards (in 3 fewer games) to Almo's paltry 50 some - I don't buy it. Having a RB who can be a receiving outlet is just as impactful in protecting the QB as a solid running game. I'm not arguing that Jones was vastly superior to Almo - more explosive, yes, but his turnovers negated any advantage. But making statements that we wouldn't have made the playoffs if it had been Jones back there the majority of the time, sorry, I think that's hard to support. That's the point I'm arguing.

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I don't think we make the playoffs with just Jones and no Morris. No.

Jones was ok early on and got worse as the season wore on, but he was never asked, and has never been asked, to shoulder the load as a feature back. And even as a part-timer he got hurt. Morris, for all his faults, was able to stay on the field all season long. Again.

I acknowledge that Jones is great out of the backfield. That's where he should have been all season long. A third down back and receiving threat, instead of being thrown wherever and whenever into this sort of disjointed mishmash of a running scheme.

Agree to disagree. Bottom line - and this is important to note - it will likely be McLovin who makes the final determination of Almo's current value. If we let him walk it's because Yoda doesn't think he's special.


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Oh I think he's gone. I'm 95% sure of it.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I hope we find another one. McLovin's first attempt, Jones, doesn't look like the guy.

Henry said:

Oh I think he's gone. I'm 95% sure of it.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I hope we find another one. McLovin's first attempt, Jones, doesn't look like the guy.

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We said the same things about Moses after year one and repeatedly about Jordan Reed. Dangerous prognosticating so early on.


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Boone said:

We said the same things about Moses after year one and repeatedly about Jordan Reed. Dangerous prognosticating so early on.

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I've addressed both in this thread a few pages ago. Om said pretty much the same thing you did.

RBs shouldnt need time to develop like linemen or recievers or QBs. Good RBs come into the NFL and produce immediately.

And yeah, I'm still concerned about Reed. Arent you?

Henry said:

I've addressed both in this thread a few pages ago. Om said pretty much the same thing you did.

RBs shouldnt need time to develop like linemen or recievers or QBs. Good RBs come into the NFL and produce immediately.

And yeah, I'm still concerned about Reed. Arent you?

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Based on ... ?

I agree that some do. But some look like rookies, then get better. Unless there's a study out there somewhere suggesting otherwise that you've found and I haven't.

All I'm saying is we'll start to find out which category Senor Jones fits into this fall.

I'm also thinking he won't head into training camp as the locked-in starter. The Skins saw the same rookie qualities we did, I'd be shocked if they didn't hedge their bets by bringing in at least one other young vet, rookie or trade acquisition to compete for the number one slot.

Om said:

Based on ... ?

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My own awesome personal observation powers, obviously.

I agree that some do. But some look like rookies, then get better. Unless there's a study out there somewhere suggesting otherwise that you've found and I haven't.

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Weren't we just saying earlier in this thread that most running backs aren't worth a second contract because RBs are only productive until they are in their late 20s? Am I imaging that it is a pretty standard belief that an average RBs career is about five years long?

I mean, how long do you give a RB to ease into the game then? Two of those years? Three?

I haven't done any studies today, but I'm willing to bet real money that there are VERY few RBs that average 3.4 ypc on fewer than 200-250 carries that eventually break out into greatness. Starting-quality RBs show something early. Either they are workhorses who can get a lot of carries, change-up guys who can get a lot of yards per carry, or can carry the load AND get a lot of yards per carry.

Again, if the holes were there this year and Morris just didn't see them, or he was out of shape, or he was 'off', or he was confused, or he just couldn't make it work in a well-designed rushing scheme ... Jones was terrible. Clearly then, Jones didn't see the holes either, or didn't understand the scheme, or whatever. He looked much more comfortable as a receiver out of the backfield. That's where I'd put him next year.

And in that case, we need RB for first and second down to execute our perfectly reasonably-designed rushing attack.

All I'm saying is we'll start to find out which category Senor Jones fits into this fall.

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Of course. I've been wrong about quite a bit recently. That trend could certainly continue.

I'm also thinking he won't head into training camp as the locked-in starter. The Skins saw the same rookie qualities we did, I'd be shocked if they didn't hedge their bets by bringing in at least one other young vet, rookie or trade acquisition to compete for the number one slot.

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Oh I think we have to.

McD5 said:

Maybe Alfred is close to what everybody thought he was. A sixth round draft pick from a traditional running scheme.

Then he got into Shanny's ZB scheme, and he appeared to be a first or second round talent.

I hate Shanny, but he turned some absolutely awful RBs into 1,000 yard runners at Denver.

Maybe in a traditional scheme, Alfred is really more like a fourth or fifth round, more expensive talent. And Scot believed Matt Jones was a second or third round talent for that system.

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I don't think it was Shanahan. I think it was Bobby Turner and I think he is single best RB coach in the league today. Why we let him go I will never know.

And I think Morris would be performing better if he were still coached by Turner.

Boone said:

Agree to disagree. Bottom line - and this is important to note - it will likely be McLovin who makes the final determination of Almo's current value. If we let him walk it's because Yoda doesn't think he's special.


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Disagree, sort of. As I said, if Gruden says he will not play Morris because he doesn't fit his scheme, why on earth would Scot give Alfred anything more than the vet minimum?

Gruden has a LOT of say in this, imo.

Henry said:

My own awesome personal observation powers, obviously.

Weren't we just saying earlier in this thread that most running backs aren't worth a second contract because RBs are only productive until they are in their late 20s? Am I imaging that it is a pretty standard belief that an average RBs career is about five years long?

I mean, how long do you give a RB to ease into the game then? Two of those years? Three?

I haven't done any studies today, but I'm willing to bet real money that there are VERY few RBs that average 3.4 ypc on fewer than 200-250 carries that eventually break out into greatness. Starting-quality RBs show something early. Either they are workhorses who can get a lot of carries, change-up guys who can get a lot of yards per carry, or can carry the load AND get a lot of yards per carry.

Again, if the holes were there this year and Morris just didn't see them, or he was out of shape, or he was 'off', or he was confused, or he just couldn't make it work in a well-designed rushing scheme ... Jones was terrible. Clearly then, Jones didn't see the holes either, or didn't understand the scheme, or whatever. He looked much more comfortable as a receiver out of the backfield. That's where I'd put him next year.

And in that case, we need RB for first and second down to execute our perfectly reasonably-designed rushing attack.

Of course. I've been wrong about quite a bit recently. That trend could certainly continue.

Oh I think we have to.

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Because I like putting meat on the bones ... I took a quick look at the top 10 rushers in the league this year to see how they all fared as rookies. Turns out all but 2 were exactly what you suggest--guys you could tell right away were pretty good.

Freeman (ATL) didn't get the requisite carries. Only Bell (PIT) fit the criteria.

(The numbers are Games Played, Starts, Carries, Yds., YPC, Long, TD's)


1 Adrian Peterson MIN
2007 Minnesota Vikings 14 9 238 1,341 5.6 73T 12

2 Le'Veon Bell PIT
2013 Pittsburgh Steelers 13 13 244 860 3.5 43 8

3 Doug Martin TB
2012 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 16 16 319 1,454 4.6 70T 11

4 Todd Gurley STL (R)
4 Todd Gurley STL RB 229 17.6 1,106 4.8

5 Jonathan Stewart CAR
2008 Carolina Panthers 16 0 184 836 4.5 41 10

6 LeSean McCoy BUF
2009 Philadelphia Eagles 16 4 155 637 4.1 66T 4

7 Chris Johnson ARI
2008 Tennessee Titans 15 14 251 1,228 4.9 66T 9

8 Jamaal Charles KC
2008 Kansas City Chiefs 16 2 67 357 5.3 30 0

9 Chris Ivory NYJ RB
2010 New Orleans Saints 12 4 137 716 5.2 55T 5

10 Devonta Freeman ATL
2014 Atlanta Falcons 16 0 65 248 3.8 31T 1


Here's hoping Jones is another exception to the ... guideline.

And we can be pretty sure Scot M., Callahan, Gruden & Co. are well aware neither Jones or Alfred can be looked at as a sure thing heading into 2016.

And that Scot and Jay are spending some time talking about what else needs to be done, scheme-wise, OL-wise or otherwise, to get the running game to at least competitive NFL level next year.