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Random Commanders Thoughts

Lanky Livingston said:
I don't think anyone would disagree with you, but you're advocating getting rid of the talent we DO have, in Orakpo. How does that help hit on talent on the later rounds? I guess I'm not understanding your point, unless you're just so frustrated you want to wipe the entire slate clean outside of Griffin and Morris?



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This is the mistake you keep making. His tenure with the Redskins is over for all intents and purposes unless he re-signs with the team in the next 2 weeks.

We don't have him.

The only thing we have control over with him as a player is the ability to talk with him since he's "technically" on our roster. But he is a Free Agent, free to sign with whomever he wants.
 
Elephant said:
This is the mistake you keep making. His tenure with the Redskins is over for all intents and purposes unless he re-signs with the team in the next 2 weeks.

We don't have him.

The only thing we have control over with him as a player is the ability to talk with him since he's "technically" on our roster. But he is a Free Agent, free to sign with whomever he wants.
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This is incorrect. He can't go anywhere unless we let him. He's ours for at least another season.

If we tag him, any team that wants to sign him has to give us two first rounders. Lanky's right.
 
Elephant said:
This is the mistake you keep making. His tenure with the Redskins is over for all intents and purposes unless he re-signs with the team in the next 2 weeks.

We don't have him.

The only thing we have control over with him as a player is the ability to talk with him since he's "technically" on our roster. But he is a Free Agent, free to sign with whomever he wants.
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False, we can franchise him, effectively eliminating him from free agency. Unless there is a team willing to fork over two (?) Firsts for him...

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McD5 said:
This is incorrect. He can't go anywhere unless we let him. He's ours for at least another season.

If we tag him, any team that wants to sign him has to give us two first rounders. Lanky's right.
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Technically, you're correct but if this organization wants to move past the dysfunction, they need to be very wise about Orakpo. A franchise tag means he gets paid top 5 money and he's nowhere near that caliber player.
 
Elephant said:
Technically, you're correct but if this organization wants to move past the dysfunction, they need to be very wise about Orakpo. A franchise tag means he gets paid top 5 money and he's nowhere near that caliber player.
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Nowhere near? I dont agree. For what he is, pass rushing OLB, he might not be top 5, but I challenge you to name 10 players better then him at his position.
 
Elephant said:
Technically, you're correct but if this organization wants to move past the dysfunction, they need to be very wise about Orakpo. A franchise tag means he gets paid top 5 money and he's nowhere near that caliber player.
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SilentThreat said:
Nowhere near? I dont agree. For what he is, pass rushing OLB, he might not be top 5, but I challenge you to name 10 players better then him at his position.
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Yeah. He may not be top 5, but he's definitely top 10, with top 5 potential.

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Lanky Livingston said:
Yeah. He may not be top 5, but he's definitely top 10, with top 5 potential.

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Top 5 potential means squat. How many guys have we drafter over the years with "potential" that never realized it, or even came close. Every player in the draft every year has potential...
 
Even if we do "overpay" Orakpo, as subjective an opinion as that will be, it's counter-balanced by having Morris for soup & sandwich.

Every team in the league has both overpaid, and underpaid players. That's just the way it is.

It's a team salary cap, not a player/position cap. Unless you're a rookie. As it should be.
 
Miles Monroe said:
Top 5 potential means squat. How many guys have we drafter over the years with "potential" that never realized it, or even came close. Every player in the draft every year has potential...
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Rak is close to top 5 though, he's currently top 10. It's not like he's a bust, and we're hoping he finally sees the field. Maybe I'm overvaluing him, but that's just my opinion. And a top 10 guy for top 5 money is not ludicrous, IMO; it's not anything like making mediocre Archuleta the highest paid safety in the NFL...

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My only point here is while there are differences, pro football is at its heart like any other business.

Successful businesses and teams are those that over time get value for money.

People have to get over Willis or JJ Watt getting a big contract and comparing those situations to Brian Orakpo.

Over the last several seasons Willis and Watt have been perhaps the best players at their position. Those players are 'worth' max deals just as Darrell Green or a young Russ Grimm would be today.

Brian Orakpo is not in that class. He has never been consistent enough to put him with the best at his position.

And factoring in as well is the injury history.

Orakpo has missed 35-40% of his career snaps over 4 seasons.

All factors to consider.
 
Bulldog's Twin said:
And factoring in as well is the injury history.

Orakpo has missed 35-40% of his career snaps over 4 seasons.

All factors to consider.
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35-40%? Where did this number come from? He's missed 16 games out of a possible 80... that's 20%, why are you doubling it?

You're acting like he's missed 2 full seasons, which is just not accurate, no matter how you massage the numbers.

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Bulldog's Twin said:
My only point here is while there are differences, pro football is at its heart like any other business.

Successful businesses and teams are those that over time get value for money.

People have to get over Willis or JJ Watt getting a big contract and comparing those situations to Brian Orakpo.

Over the last several seasons Willis and Watt have been perhaps the best players at their position. Those players are 'worth' max deals just as Darrell Green or a young Russ Grimm would be today.

Brian Orakpo is not in that class. He has never been consistent enough to put him with the best at his position.

And factoring in as well is the injury history.

Orakpo has missed 35-40% of his career snaps over 4 seasons.

All factors to consider.
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The only person comparing situations in this thread is you. You just bent over backwards to compare the Redskins to the 49ers, Seahawks, Packers and Ravens. All we've been doing is pointing out that your comparisons are crap. Sorry. Those teams DO re-sign their top free agents to huge contracts. You picking out one guy from one of those teams and telling us, "yeah but he's GOOD" doesn't mean anything.

Is Joe Flacco the best at his position? Is Percy Harvin ever healthy?

Part of getting value over time is the 'time' part. Lots of veteran free agents initially get overpaid. Over time, however, if the contract is not incredibly back-loaded a la Vinnie Ceratto, the contracts become more reasonable and in line with the rest of the league. If Orakpo is, say, a top 15 player and he gets top 5 money this year, he's overpaid this year. The next year, as other 'top' guys get top money, he's only slightly overpaid. The next year, he's paid his value. The next year, he's a bargain. What killed the Redskins in the past was not re-signing their own guys to big contracts. It was (in addition to about a dozen other factors) heavily backloading everything. Re-structuring and backloading again. And again. And so that 'he's a bargain' year never happened, and every free agent we signed got overpaid and then left us with gobs of dead cap space. All the time.

I agree with everyone else that we should never do that again. I don't think we should build a team with free agency because you do end up overpaying a lot. But I do not think we should avoid signing guys because they might be overpaid for a year or two. Unless you abandon free agency entirely it's something you can't avoid. And when we do sprinkle in a few free agents, I'd rather it be our own guys. Guys who have some value in this league. I'd have taken Pierce and Clark over Trotter and Archuletta any day, even if some fans thought they were slightly overpaid for a bit.
 
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I just hope if the team does franchise Orakpo at $11M for 2014 that you all are happy with the players the team is able to find with a third less cap space.

Demarcus Ware had an 18-19 sack season in Dallas a couple of years ago and the Cowboys still finished out of the playoffs.

I would rather spread the wealth around and sign 3-4 targeted players for that $11M.
 
Bulldog's Twin said:
I just hope if the team does franchise Orakpo at $11M for 2014 that you all are happy with the players the team is able to find with a third less cap space.

Demarcus Ware had an 18-19 sack season in Dallas a couple of years ago and the Cowboys still finished out of the playoffs.

I would rather spread the wealth around and sign 3-4 targeted players for that $11M.
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If I knew for certain that we would end up with 3-4 targeted players that would make immediate, positive impact, then sure, your argument might hold more sway. However, as we as Redskins fans have seen more than any other team, FA is just as much of a crap shoot as the draft is. As Henry has pointed out, this year's overpaid vet is a bargain 4 years later. I don't think you are suggesting Rak sucks, so we will be keeping a player we know will contribute, and contribute well.

You seem to be presupposing that we will be able to bring in comparably talented players should we let Rak go. I don't think it's a given. At all.
 
Henry said:
Part of getting value over time is the 'time' part. Lots of veteran free agents initially get overpaid. Over time, however, if the contract is not incredibly back-loaded a la Vinnie Ceratto, the contracts become more reasonable and in line with the rest of the league. If Orakpo is, say, a top 15 player and he gets top 5 money this year, he's overpaid this year. The next year, as other 'top' guys get top money, he's only slightly overpaid. The next year, he's paid his value. The next year, he's a bargain. What killed the Redskins in the past was not re-signing their own guys to big contracts. It was (in addition to about a dozen other factors) heavily backloading everything. Re-structuring and backloading again. And again. And so that 'he's a bargain' year never happened, and every free agent we signed got overpaid and then left us with gobs of dead cap space. All the time.
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I must admit, as simple as that seems, it's something I wasn't thinking about. It doesn't radically change my perspective on this one player/contract, but it certainly makes the long term ramifications not seem so potentially terrible. Gracias.
 
Bulldog's Twin said:
I just hope if the team does franchise Orakpo at $11M for 2014 that you all are happy with the players the team is able to find with a third less cap space.

Demarcus Ware had an 18-19 sack season in Dallas a couple of years ago and the Cowboys still finished out of the playoffs.

I would rather spread the wealth around and sign 3-4 targeted players for that $11M.
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This line of thought is hard to argue. I think I'd like to be one of those teams with very few STARS. I think this guy's paycheck is always going to be = to his hype. He's played well at times, but is he a 3-4 OLB worth franchising? I hear the "what if we lose more talent" crowd, but with just what you pay him you can bring in 3-4-even 5 role players. Our defense has no identity without Fletcher... Sack chasers don't fill that void.... they're all about sacks.

Its a quandary for certain but I wouldn't franchise him without knowing that a fair deal can be hammered out quickly.
 
Dead Money said:
This line of thought is hard to argue. I think I'd like to be one of those teams with very few STARS. I think this guy's paycheck is always going to be = to his hype. He's played well at times, but is he a 3-4 OLB worth franchising? I hear the "what if we lose more talent" crowd, but with just what you pay him you can bring in 3-4-even 5 role players. Our defense has no identity without Fletcher... Sack chasers don't fill that void.... they're all about sacks.

Its a quandary for certain but I wouldn't franchise him without knowing that a fair deal can be hammered out quickly.
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Orakpo or not, this team will live and die with it's drafts. That's another thing the Snyder/Ceratto front office never understood. A team simply MUST draft well in order to create a decent talent base. If we whiff on our draft picks, if we trade picks for vets, if we go young for old, it won't matter what we do with Orakpo. Signing him or not isn't going to decide this team's fate. Really whether or not you want him back comes down to how good you think he is. In my opinion.

But the draft, that's where you get your role players. Not free agency. If you go free agency for role players you overpay.

And in my opinion, home-grown talent is always better. It's talent you know can succeed on your team, rather than in some other scheme or with some other players. It's less risky. And when spending free agent money, I prefer 'less risky.'

So my thinking is, build the team through the draft, sprinkle in the free agents where you can. We don't want 10 or more free agents on this team, do we? We want like 3 or 4. Personally I have no problem with Orakpo being one of those free agents.
 
The new cap is now expected to be in the $135 mil range, up another 5 mil from just a few days ago.

That would give the Redskins about $42 mil under right now. After voiding contracts take effect soon, that number climbs to just over $54 mil. Expected cuts pushes the number to around $60 mil under.
 
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