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  1. #22521
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    Wins what? We mostly did ‘win’ - but he never showed up in big games and was a major underperformed in the red zone. Smith has a far better track record in both areas. He’s also highly coachable - something I am not sure can be said of Cousins.


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    I wasn't knocking Smith, I actually like Smith better...I think. But you said Gruden never had a QB here with which to win, and I don't agree. Cousins was/is a good QB. You're right, he had issues, and I mentioned them, but he was more than good enough for Gruden to win more than he did. We lost a fair number of games because Gruden is just an average coach. He may be a brilliant offensive mind, and we do see his pass plays consistently get players open if run correctly, but he has yet to prove he can coach an NFL football team. In fact his record, notwithstanding his first year here, proves it as he's regressed in the last 3 years. I'm willing to give him a bye on the first year, but not years 3 and 4 when he was making the same coaching errors he did in his first season.
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  2. #22522

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    I don't think that's what I said Brian. I was a Cousins fan. Best QB the Skins have had in quite some time. But his limitations were Gruden's limitations - he played well enough to win more often than not, but not well enough when it really mattered. I'm not giving Gruden a pass, but if we're being fair the team has been on an upward trajectory the past several years and had it not been for record injuries last season, we were a certain playoff team. We were a play here or there away from a winning season last year, and given the difficulty of the schedule and the injuries, Gruden might have deserved COTY had he pulled it off.

    I liked Cousins. He may take the next step in Minnesota, or he may show the same limitations that resulted in no one being all that devastated when he spurned the Redskins for the biggest payday he could find.

    I'm not arguing the main point, that Gruden has to take the team to the next level if he wants to remain HC. But stating he's been a weak link as Ax has (and that's about the kindest thing he's ever said about the guy) - isn't quite right. We've won as much with Gruden at the helm as Gibbs did in his second tenure. I think he's an above average coach who still may show he's a lot better than that. We have to remember that prior to Gruden, the Redskins had more head coaching changes than nearly any team in the league over a 20 year period. That approach was disastrous. We need to stay the course.
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  3. #22523
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    We have to remember that prior to Gruden, the Redskins had more head coaching changes than nearly any team in the league over a 20 year period. That approach was disastrous. We need to stay the course.
    Love ya Brother, but I think you over value Gruden's ability. Yes, his play calling, offensive scheme, ability to develop a quality offense is not in question...without which we'd have been worse. I cannot argue that.

    What I will argue is that because this is all he has displayed as a coach, we will never be true contenders. He lacks the total package that will take him to the next level, and that is the finer points of being a coach.

    I cannot stand Bellicheck, but he does the little things that make him a better coach. You have to know the rules of the game and how to stretch them to their breaking point. Some will say he's cheated, and he would never win without Brady...they're correct, but he still knows the game better than most, and knows how to take advantage of rules that are there to help him win, i.e., the injury report week in and week out. He places players on that report to keep the other teams off guard, not knowing what to expect. Tom Brady is on it almost every week. He robs other teams of their practice squad players and utilizes them beyond their abilities in many cases. He knows how to manage the clock to perfection. They know how to manipulate more draft picks for different years stock, knowing that positions in certain drafts will not be as available as others so they make trades to dump 1st and/or 2nd rounders in order to pick up more another year when they know they'll need help in certain position that there will be more players available at the positions of need. These are little things that give his teams advantages over others, and there are more examples.

    Gruden simply puts together a good offense. That's it. He doesn't know how to manipulate a draft thinking 2 or 3 years down the road by which players are going to be available the following year, he certainly doesn't know how to manage a clock, he doesn't know you can keep teams off balance on what to expect come Sunday with an injury report, we rarely if ever get someone off a practice squad who is am immediate impact...he just knows an offense.

    Some of these examples are minimal with their effect, others are huge impacts on the quality of the team, but they're all a part of a package Gruden has not displayed he understands. He's only displayed he can put together a quality pass game.
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  4. #22524

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    I'm not arguing the main point, that Gruden has to take the team to the next level if he wants to remain HC. But stating he's been a weak link as Ax has (and that's about the kindest thing he's ever said about the guy) - isn't quite right. We've won as much with Gruden at the helm as Gibbs did in his second tenure. I think he's an above average coach who still may show he's a lot better than that. We have to remember that prior to Gruden, the Redskins had more head coaching changes than nearly any team in the league over a 20 year period. That approach was disastrous. We need to stay the course.

    Which game was it, that in-game decisions by Gruden, were the clear difference in the game? I would argue, there hasn't been one. None that were obvious.

    Above average coaches get more out players than even the player knows he has. I've seen an abundance of under-achievers. Scant few over.
    (This was the case pre-Gruden too. So, he hasn't improved that aspect, at all)

    Gruden can be a very good "Plan A" offensive coach. He has no plan b. Hasn't for 4 years. It's why he reminds me of Turner. Good when things are going as he game planned for. Lost when it doesn't. Not head coach material. So far.

    He's "talked" a good running game since he walked through the door. He has never committed to it in a noticeable way.

    Still rookie-like clock management.

    And please, Gibbs, still having Cerrato lurking about, did win a playoff game. And I think it's a given Gibbs could get more out of ANY team, than Gruden.


    All that said, I truly hope he gets COY this season, to go along with Lombardi #4 .
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  5. #22525

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ax View Post
    Which game was it, that in-game decisions by Gruden, were the clear difference in the game? I would argue, there hasn't been one. None that were obvious.

    Above average coaches get more out players than even the player knows he has. I've seen an abundance of under-achievers. Scant few over.
    (This was the case pre-Gruden too. So, he hasn't improved that aspect, at all)

    Gruden can be a very good "Plan A" offensive coach. He has no plan b. Hasn't for 4 years. It's why he reminds me of Turner. Good when things are going as he game planned for. Lost when it doesn't. Not head coach material. So far.

    He's "talked" a good running game since he walked through the door. He has never committed to it in a noticeable way.

    Still rookie-like clock management.

    And please, Gibbs, still having Cerrato lurking about, did win a playoff game. And I think it's a given Gibbs could get more out of ANY team, than Gruden.


    All that said, I truly hope he gets COY this season, to go along with Lombardi #4 .
    What a bullshit post

    Am I supposed to summon up that time he drew up the immaculate reception in the Fed Ex Field dirt?

    Damn near every decision Gruden has made that contributed to a win was a Gruden 'in game' decision. You can't quantify those things one way or the other. I've already acknowledged (repeatedly) that Gruden has a closing window to prove he can do more than just field a .500 or marginally better team. That's as it should be.

    You mentioned Gibbs. Sorry - but of the 4 seasons in Giibs 2, two of them were pretty awful. We're not talking about entire coaching legacies. We're talking about two coaches 4 game stretches. Sorry - but Gruden's tenure has probably been more consistently successful. If you want to point to the playoff win, that's fine. But you will have just made my case for me, which is that a head coach is only as good as his QBs ability to perform in big games. Cousins crapped the bed in big games for Gruden, plain and simple. Now we can also hold Gruden accountable for that as well - I actually think that's fair. It's Gruden's job to get the team ready for games - every player. Too often the Redskins, particularly at QB, haven't been ready. I'm not even going to go there with my very unpopular viewpoint regarding Gibbs II - that he quit on the franchise, because winning in the NFL the 2nd time around was just too damned hard.

    But the 'in game decision' thing is a load of crap. Gruden deserves 100% credit for some of the great wins we've had during his tenure. And he deserves blame for the ones that weren't so great. My only point is that the final chapter of his book isn't written, even though some of you want to skip ahead and assume that because our hero was tied to the railroad tracks with a speeding train bearing down on him in Chapter 9, that all is lost. The final chapters are yet to be written.
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  6. #22526
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    What a bullshit post


    Damn near every decision Gruden has made that contributed to a win was a Gruden 'in game' decision. You can't quantify those things one way or the other. I've already acknowledged (repeatedly) that Gruden has a closing window to prove he can do more than just field a .500 or marginally better team. That's as it should be.
    OK, so over half his in game decisions have not worked.
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  7. #22527

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    What a bullshit post

    Am I supposed to summon up that time he drew up the immaculate reception in the Fed Ex Field dirt?
    The hyperbole was to emphasize a point. Gruden is a good X's & O's guy. We can all find examples of that. But he's never been more than average at much else. His scheme can be very productive. But on the whole, he's just a guy. There's nothing that inspires about him. He does not appear to get more, out of less, like the really good ones do.

    Damn near every decision Gruden has made that contributed to a win was a Gruden 'in game' decision. You can't quantify those things one way or the other. I've already acknowledged (repeatedly) that Gruden has a closing window to prove he can do more than just field a .500 or marginally better team. That's as it should be.
    Well then, as El said, the majority of his decisions have contributed to losses. The look on his face when plan A falls apart has the same name of a once popular tv show. Lost!
    You mentioned Gibbs.
    No, you mentioned Gibbs. I responded.
    Sorry - but of the 4 seasons in Giibs 2, two of them were pretty awful. We're not talking about entire coaching legacies. We're talking about two coaches 4 game stretches. Sorry - but Gruden's tenure has probably been more consistently successful.
    Well gee Batman, Gibbs took his teams to the playoffs twice in 4 seasons. That's .500 if my math is correct. Gruden is .250 in the same amount of time. Now, maybe it's because I went to an old country school, but they taught us the .500 was twice as good as .250 is. Did they lie to me? Those hillbilly bastards!

    If you want to point to the playoff win, that's fine.
    Oh, it's more than fine. It's an exclamation point on the line that, even as a shell of his former self, Joe Gibbs got more, out of less, than has Jay Gruden has.

    But you will have just made my case for me, which is that a head coach is only as good as his QBs ability to perform in big games.
    On the contrary, it proves the fact that Gibbs II 4 years were more successful than Gruden's.
    Cousins crapped the bed in big games for Gruden, plain and simple. Now we can also hold Gruden accountable for that as well - I actually think that's fair. It's Gruden's job to get the team ready for games - every player. Too often the Redskins, particularly at QB, haven't been ready.
    Agreed.
    I'm not even going to go there with my very unpopular viewpoint regarding Gibbs II - that he quit on the franchise, because winning in the NFL the 2nd time around was just too damned hard.
    Well, it wasn't the only reason, but he did indeed quit. After burning out the first time, it didn't take as long to reach that point, the second time.

    But the 'in game decision' thing is a load of crap. Gruden deserves 100% credit for some of the great wins we've had during his tenure. And he deserves blame for the ones that weren't so great.
    You forgot to mention the ones that were downright horrid. If you're giving him 100% of the credit for some of the great wins, then he gets 100% credit for the losses. Which again, has happened more often than not during his tenure.
    My only point is that the final chapter of his book isn't written, even though some of you want to skip ahead and assume that because our hero was tied to the railroad tracks with a speeding train bearing down on him in Chapter 9, that all is lost. The final chapters are yet to be written.
    I have repeatedly said, "so far" in my assessment of our hero. I continue to hope for his success, here, as well.

    But everybody knows, it was a slow moving freight train. And it happened in Chapter 7.


    What a bullshit post
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  8. #22528

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    We're really not that far apart Brother's Ax and Elephant. My main point of contention is that Gruden is 'just a guy'. He's not 'just a guy'. Joe Barry was 'just a guy' (oh - and btw, if we're grading Gruden mistakes, that has truly been his only major glaring one for me). Some of the reasons I believe Gruden is a very good coach:

    1) Gruden took care of the RG3 situation - decisively and quickly. We may not have liked the way he did it, but had he not done so, we might still be watching that diva struggle. We certainly wouldn't have won 1/2 our games during the past 4 years.
    2) Gruden is an offensive genius. Cousins has talent, but he wouldn't be half the QB Gruden made him had he been drafted by another team.
    3) Gruden has been moderately successful with just decent talent. It's true - the great ones (Gibbs, Parcells, Belichick, etc...) seem to be able to win regardless of the roster. But it's not like we've had the greatest talent for him to work with. That's beginning to change, and that's why it's fair and correct to expect him to take the team to another level over the next few years.
    4) Gruden has the unquestioned respect of his players and coaches. They like him and want to play hard and win for him. We have had a number of seasons where we got off to a slow start, but the team never gave up, and rallied down the stretch. That's all Gruden and his coaches.
    5) Gruden (and sorry in advance for the phrase) keeps it medium. He is calm and rational even under intense pressure. He knows how to talk to the media. He doesn't tolerate or ignore drama. He runs a tight ship. He's the only coach in the last 20 years other than Gibbs you can say that about.
    6) He loves being head coach of the Redskins. I really believe this. That's a refreshing change from a lot of previous coaches who seemed to be plotting their escape from day one. I think he knows how to handle Dan Snyder and that's an important requirement for anyone who has that gig.

    I like Gruden. I believe he can get it done. He is not there yet and has a lot to prove. But as previously stated, we can't keep cycling through coaches every 2-4 years. It's killed this franchise. That's an indisputable fact. There are many things Gruden can do better - I have never disputed that. It's easy to say 'until he wins a championship he is a failure' - but where else in life do we apply that kind of standard?
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  9. #22529

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    We're really not that far apart Brother's Ax and Elephant.
    Of course we're not. You're just smarter and better looking. At least, than me. However, I have venison, and you don't.

    My main point of contention is that Gruden is 'just a guy'. He's not 'just a guy'. Joe Barry was 'just a guy' (oh - and btw, if we're grading Gruden mistakes, that has truly been his only major glaring one for me).
    Difference of opinion. And Joe Barry was a "WTF is a Joe Barry" kind of guy. Leaving Jay as, just a guy.
    Some of the reasons I believe Gruden is a very good coach:

    1) Gruden took care of the RG3 situation - decisively and quickly. We may not have liked the way he did it, but had he not done so, we might still be watching that diva struggle. We certainly wouldn't have won 1/2 our games during the past 4 years.
    I disagree with "decisively and quickly". Decisively, yes. He knew 5 minutes after walking through the door that he didn't want, or like, Griffin. Despite a guaranteed contract in his pocket, he lacked the sack to immediately make the move. Not until the drunk came on board did he find the muster to do it. And even then, he, and the team, failed to cut bait and trade Griffin for a draft pick. Any draft pick. I know all the arguments for him not doing it. I just don't accept them as a valid enough excuse.

    2) Gruden is an offensive genius. Cousins has talent, but he wouldn't be half the QB Gruden made him had he been drafted by another team.
    I will agree that he is a top notch Plan A guy. But he couldn't spell Plan B if you spotted him, Plan. That disqualifies him from being anything close to a genius.

    3) Gruden has been moderately successful with just decent talent. It's true - the great ones (Gibbs, Parcells, Belichick, etc...) seem to be able to win regardless of the roster. But it's not like we've had the greatest talent for him to work with. That's beginning to change, and that's why it's fair and correct to expect him to take the team to another level over the next few years.
    Gibbs teams weren't any better. But he got as much, and more, out of what he did have. And granted, he also had a better DC. But that Jay's fault. As you've said.

    4) Gruden has the unquestioned respect of his players and coaches. They like him and want to play hard and win for him.
    Well, except for Cousins. The second starting QB glad to be gone from Jay. I'm sure Colt lost a little love for him too, after bringing in Alex.
    BTW, Smith will be the guy to save Gruden's job. Gruden should do well with a QB that already knows what he's doing in this league. Cause he doesn't have much luck training them.

    5) Gruden (and sorry in advance for the phrase) keeps it medium. He is calm and rational even under intense pressure. He knows how to talk to the media. He doesn't tolerate or ignore drama. He runs a tight ship. He's the only coach in the last 20 years other than Gibbs you can say that about.
    He's from a football family. He grew up in it. He should be calm and rational. He shouldn't look so confused when his plan doesn't work. He shouldn't quit on a game, ever, until it's over. And you would think clock management would be second nature to him. It's not.
    6) He loves being head coach of the Redskins. I really believe this. That's a refreshing change from a lot of previous coaches who seemed to be plotting their escape from day one. I think he knows how to handle Dan Snyder and that's an important requirement for anyone who has that gig.
    Complete agreement here.
    I like Gruden. I believe he can get it done. He is not there yet and has a lot to prove. But as previously stated, we can't keep cycling through coaches every 2-4 years. It's killed this franchise. That's an indisputable fact. There are many things Gruden can do better - I have never disputed that. It's easy to say 'until he wins a championship he is a failure' - but where else in life do we apply that kind of standard?
    I sure do hope he can get it done. And I've argued many times over the years that instability at head coach/systems has been the biggest hurdle we've faced.

    But year 5 doesn't allow for the continuation of mediocrity. Making the playoffs is minimum requirement. A playoff win, or 2, or 3, is not too much to ask.
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Well to be honest - my post wasn't intended to be quite as snarky and aggressive as it is now that I'm not reading it with 3-4 beers on board. Not exactly in-line with board expectations I agree with 90+ % of what you are saying. Including the part about the venison. I wish I had some hunting friends down here who'd take me under their wing and show me how it's done. I have only a handful of friends in life, most not local.
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  11. #22531
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Days until Training Camp

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  12. #22532
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    I will say this, Jay Gruden ruined any chance of becoming a better than average NFL Head Coach when he hired Joe Barry instead of Wade. That was the worst decision this team has made since they traded draft picks for RG3.
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  13. #22533

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    I will say this, Jay Gruden ruined any chance of becoming a better than average NFL Head Coach when he hired Joe Barry instead of Wade. That was the worst decision this team has made since they traded draft picks for RG3.
    It was definitely the worst decision he's made ... but 'ruined any chance of becoming a better than average NFL Head Coach'?

    Barry's gone. We have a great defensive staff. And we're going to win the NFC East this year and make some noise in the playoffs.
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Fear The Spear View Post
    Days until Training Camp

    Love this Fear The Spear ... going to carry it on the home page ...
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  15. #22535
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    I will say this, Jay Gruden ruined any chance of becoming a better than average NFL Head Coach when he hired Joe Barry instead of Wade. That was the worst decision this team has made since they traded draft picks for RG3.
    I'm a big Jay backer but to this day it still boggles my bloody mind how he passed over the litany of proven and established D-coordinators for Joe Barry. When he promoted Manusky I was thinking "here we go again." The defense was good against the pass but if they don't do better against the rush it's going to be a long season.

  16. #22536
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Reyskin Solo View Post
    I'm a big Jay backer but to this day it still boggles my bloody mind how he passed over the litany of proven and established D-coordinators for Joe Barry. When he promoted Manusky I was thinking "here we go again." The defense was good against the pass but if they don't do better against the rush it's going to be a long season.
    I agree with many on the board, this should be remedied this upcoming with a stronger presence on the DL, although they are more optimistic. I still think we could have done more to improve the DL with more than the draft, but if Tim Settle can be more than just a 5th round pick, which many suggest he can...we should see improvement against the run.
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  17. #22537
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    It was definitely the worst decision he's made ... but 'ruined any chance of becoming a better than average NFL Head Coach'?

    Barry's gone. We have a great defensive staff. And we're going to win the NFC East this year and make some noise in the playoffs.
    We're in year 5 of his tenure and Jay Gruden has given us an average team for the first 4 seasons. Had he hired Wade Phillips, we'd have probably had a defense that would have given Gruden a few more wins and made us a better team. He has this season to save his career here in DC...anything less than 10-6 likely see Gruden fired, and I just don't see us going 10-6.

    John, you just can't argue, given the body of evidence provided, that Gruden is anything but average. Until he proves otherwsie, I just don't see how you can argue that assertion.

    As for your "great" defensive staff assertion, I think you're coloring that a bit rosy, too. Tomsula is definitely a solid coach, Manusky has shown he can get the most out of his players, and there seems to be some talent at the other coaching position, but what exactly have they done to suggest they are great?
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Reyskin Solo View Post
    I'm a big Jay backer but to this day it still boggles my bloody mind how he passed over the litany of proven and established D-coordinators for Joe Barry. When he promoted Manusky I was thinking "here we go again."
    It takes 2 to tango. Do we know for a fact that he never even contacted or attempted to contact Wade and the other proven DC's ?
    Or was it simply their choice not to come here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reyskin Solo View Post
    The defense was good against the pass but if they don't do better against the rush it's going to be a long season.
    All signs are pointing to the rush defense's ineptitude being a matter of personnel, not the failure of a DC.
    Especially with them failing under a man with the rep of Jim Tomsula.
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Wade interviewed with Norval Gruden shortly after Haslett was let go. His kid was the TE Coach here at that time, so he was happy about the prospect. IIRC, Wade described the interview as somewhat odd and Gruden was somewhat odd. IIRC, Wade said Gruden played him tapes of some game where the Texans played the Bengals and the focus was mostly on plays where the Bengals did well. Wade was confused, thinking the interview would actually be able what he'd provide a Defense and instead left feeling like it was Gruden just being a dick, like Gruden knew he didn't want Wade for the gig and was just going through the motions.

    Instead, the job goes to Mr 0-16.
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    Default Re: Random Redskins Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by ntotoro View Post
    Instead, the job goes to Mr 0-16.
    Well at least you can say the organization strives for perfection.
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