A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
'Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.' - Groucho Marx

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  1. #1

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    George Mason

    Default LA Reps Support School Vouchers for Religous Schools; unless Muslims want to use them

    edit: Title should read 'Reps' since it's plural. I tried to fix it but it didn't update

    Now I tried to find FoxNew's counter article to this because I was sincerely interested in what the 'right' had to say about it. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be one. Here's the search link to prove to you that I at least tried:
    http://www.foxnews.com/search-result...&submit=Search

    If someone finds one, please post it

    There are plenty of left wing blogs/media sites that have an article on this. So, unfortunately, you're getting one of those sites as the source material. Sorry, but if the right isn't going to offer their view in an article then I can't use it

    Many of the left wing blogs/articles/op eds are offensive (towards religion)... which is most unfortunate. These seem to be the source articles, which is why i'm using it:
    http://m.livingstonparishnews.com/mo...9bb2963f4.html
    http://thinkprogress.org/education/2...ols/?mobile=nc

    Basically they have legislation allowing for school vouchers for religious schools; then they realized that Christianity isn't the only religion, so now they want to backtrack on it.

    To me this is just shockingly clear evidence of how biased people in our government are towards Muslims. It makes me sick to my stomach that people actually feel this way about each other; people actually think it was Islam that attacked us on 9/11, or that our brave young men and women are overseas fighting Islam. It's such a narrow minded, uneducated view and to see it as much as we do is just frightening in my opinion.
    Last edited by tshile; 07-09-12 at 02:11 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Florida State

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    We may not be fighting against "Islam", but you better believe Muslims are fighting us to advance Islam! If you don't believe that you sir are the ignorant one.

    As for the article, no religions should have it or all religions should have it...
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

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    Default

    El, that is the equivalent of saying that the members of the Westboro Baptist Church are fair representatives of all Christians rather than corner case nut jobs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    El, that is the equivalent of saying that the members of the Westboro Baptist Church are fair representatives of all Christians rather than corner case nut jobs.

    I had a long reply typed out but realize if you cannot see the terrible analogy you've given you are not going to agree with the threat Islam poses to the freedoms of Western Societies.
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

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    Florida Atlantic

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    While I disagree with Neo's analogy, I do think you're being a little over-general in your analysis, El. I have numerous coworkers who practice Islam, and not one of them are fighting "us" to advance Islam.

    EDIT: In fact, most are very open about their beliefs, and willing to discuss them. I haven't heard one person be critical of any other religion in our conversations. I would think this is more typical of the common Muslim than the alternative, but that's just me. Or, the ratio is no greater than the amount of Christians who do the same thing...
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    While I disagree with Neo's analogy, I do think you're being a little over-general in your analysis, El. I have numerous coworkers who practice Islam, and not one of them are fighting "us" to advance Islam.

    EDIT: In fact, most are very open about their beliefs, and willing to discuss them. I haven't heard one person be critical of any other religion in our conversations. I would think this is more typical of the common Muslim than the alternative, but that's just me. Or, the ratio is no greater than the amount of Christians who do the same thing...
    In the USA I will agree Lanky. There are many generous Muslims here and throughout the world for that matter, but the majority of Muslims in the US are Westernized or liberal in their beliefs. The population of Muslims in the US make up less than one-half of one percent of the world's Muslim population. Extreme Muslims perpetrate the violent acts, but the problem is that moderate Muslims do not speak out against the atrocities and their silence makes them implicit. Why don't they speak out? Because they have the same ends as the Extremists.


    Muslims throughout the world are far less friendly to Western Civilizations. I could give examples but the reality is I have already done it in prior conversations and you guys didn't agree with me then so you probably won't agree with me now. Even so, here's a little insight I gained through my studies.

    When I decided to study Middle Eastern Studies in college I went in with an open mind so I could learn as much as possible. The more I studied their history and Islam, the more I realized the truth of the teachings of Islam. They are not tolerant of other religions. Throughout their history they have used violence as the means to the end. Yes other religions, including Christianity have done the same, but most of the world's religions stopped the mass killing of other religions in the age of Enlightenment. Muslims still kill in the name of Islam, even their own on unprecedented levels throughout the world because of the teachings of the Qu'ran and Hadith. Just look at the treatment of Christian missionaries in Muslim countries, especially once moderate countries like Indonesia where attacks on Christians have amped up over the past 10 years.

    Islam is viewed by Muslims as "the One True Religion" on earth and they will advance that cause by any means necessary, some by violence but those who choose not to use violence refuse to condemn the extremists because they have the same goal. This is a cold hard truth too many "idealists" seem to ignore.


    Last time this subject was discussed here, I implored you guys to watch this man discuss this issue. John Kelsay is a well respected Professor of Religious Ethics and his expertise is Just War theory. He has been studying Islam and other religions for over around 40 years. His books are the gold standard for the Just War theory.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4xJ3KwMic
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

  7. #7

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    George Mason

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    Elephant, I don't think it would productive for us to really get into it on this subject; as you've already mentioned it would probably be pointless for both of us

    All I want to comment on is that I disagree, as much as is possible, that the moderate muslims don't speak out about it. I see representatives of their group speak out all the time.
    I firmly believe that the terrorists are as affiliated with Islam as the KKK was affiliated with Christianity, or Timothy Mcveigh, or the guy who flew his small plane into an IRS building in Texas, or any other white, 'christian' person who's done terrible things.

    I do recognize there is a very strict sect of Islam that believes in things such as Sharia Law. The difference is that I don't use that group to represent Islam in it's entirety. I don't turn their beliefs into evidence that Islam is 'at war' with 'us'.

    And I certainly don't use it as a reason to be a bigot towards Muslims in our own country. (not accusing you of that, just the people in the article )

    You obviously disagree (except for the bigot part, I think ), and we could go into this for years and never sway the other person. I recognize the core of what you're saying - I just don't believe it is part of Islam but instead a group that uses Islam as a way to justify their goals. The leaders of Saudia Arabia, Iran, and other arab countries are not being true to their religion; they're using their religion to justify terrible acts. People have done the same with Christianity.

    I don't understand why people in this country are so comfortable putting space between Christianity and people who claim it as justification for doing terrible acts, but cannot do the same for these evil people and Islam.
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    And tshile, you can disagree all you want but your reply shows me you have little understanding of the Muslim world as a whole. You have given a response that is typical for those who do not understand.
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    I had a long reply typed out but realize if you cannot see the terrible analogy you've given you are not going to agree with the threat Islam poses to the freedoms of Western Societies.
    Look, here is the deal. All the world's religions are fighting for advancement at the expense of each other. What do you missionaries are all about? They are about going out into other cultures and converting those cultures.

    So the Muslims of the world believe they have the "One True Religion". Big deal. My guess is that you believe the same thing about Christianity, don't you?

    I know too many people who have spent large portions of their lives living and working among Muslim peoples outside the US who do not believe that the vast majority of Islamics in the world aren't interested in violently converting us to buy into that idea. Is there a small, extreme group within the Islamic religion that does want that? Yes, absolutely.

    But to say that all Muslims preach "death to the infidel" is exactly like saying that all Christians believe the same tripe extolled by the members of the Westboro Baptist Church. And arguing that mainstream Muslims would speak out if they disagreed and that is proof of what they want doesn't cut it either. I hear a lot about people not liking Westboro Baptist but I don't hear a lot about Christians disagreeing, yet I am pretty sure few Christians do agree.
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    Look, here is the deal. All the world's religions are fighting for advancement at the expense of each other. What do you missionaries are all about? They are about going out into other cultures and converting those cultures.

    So the Muslims of the world believe they have the "One True Religion". Big deal. My guess is that you believe the same thing about Christianity, don't you?

    I know too many people who have spent large portions of their lives living and working among Muslim peoples outside the US who do not believe that the vast majority of Islamics in the world aren't interested in violently converting us to buy into that idea. Is there a small, extreme group within the Islamic religion that does want that? Yes, absolutely.

    But to say that all Muslims preach "death to the infidel" is exactly like saying that all Christians believe the same tripe extolled by the members of the Westboro Baptist Church. And arguing that mainstream Muslims would speak out if they disagreed and that is proof of what they want doesn't cut it either. I hear a lot about people not liking Westboro Baptist but I don't hear a lot about Christians disagreeing, yet I am pretty sure few Christians do agree.

    which notion are you attacking? converting the US or violence proclivities of the Islamic faith? cuz it's very obvious what the verdict is on the latter. it's not small or events would not unfold as they have. anyone who has been in that part of the world also knows that pronounced enmities amongst the various flavors of islam have existed down through the centuries - which have issued in great violence.

    "all", of course, is an extreme/strawman position.
    Last edited by fansince62; 07-13-12 at 10:50 AM.
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  11. #11

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    James Madison

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    As a Christian, I hate bringing this up, but it isn't like our past is free of violence and criminal acts, oftentimes in the name of God. Religion is one of the worst things that happened to this world. The similarities between most religions far outweigh the differences, imo.
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  12. #12

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    George Mason

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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    too bad actual history suggests otherwise. it's not small or events would not unfold as they have.

    "all", of course, is an extreme/strawman position.
    the christian religion doesn't have a very nice or clean history either.

    white people, for that matter, don't have a nice or clean history for that matter.

    it's 2012. if you want to go digging through history and using historic events to generalize how people are today, let's do it. i think you'd object to being considered and treated like a slave owner or a crusader. that's an assumption though, please let me know if you wouldn't object to that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    the christian religion doesn't have a very nice or clean history either.

    white people, for that matter, don't have a nice or clean history for that matter.

    it's 2012. if you want to go digging through history and using historic events to generalize how people are today, let's do it. i think you'd object to being considered and treated like a slave owner or a crusader. that's an assumption though, please let me know if you wouldn't object to that.
    true that....black people sold their own into slavery.....

    on the other hand......that sort of violence has abated - not nearly on the same scale/persistence as we view today in Southwest Asia. we don't see white people (except Left wingers here in America) executing sustained acts of terrorist violence for ideological reasons....and we don't see Christian "madrasah" educating thousands for terrorism. the groups you point a finger at actually overcame their evil sides. we're all waiting on Islam.
    Last edited by fansince62; 07-13-12 at 10:58 AM.
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  14. #14

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    George Mason

    Default

    edit: nvm. i'll let someone who isn't as confrontational continue the conversation.
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    Florida Atlantic

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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    edit: nvm. i'll let someone who isn't as confrontational continue the conversation.
    Yeah, you were being trolled.
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  16. #16

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    George Mason

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    shocker. one day i'll learn to just ignore his ridiculous posts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    so you recognize that being white does not make you a slave owner...

    well, being muslim doesn't make you a terrorist.

    wanting to start a muslim private school and receive the same benefits christian private schools receive doesn't mean you want to start a tax payer funded terrorist training center.

    how can you not understand that? is your opinion backed by hate or by fear? it has to be one of them, because I don't think you're ignorant or stupid, and i believe you live in reality.

    if you're just trolling me then congrats, you've won this round.
    what kind of argument is that?

    I get the tactic of trying to conflate extremes into generalizations.

    First off...be sure which argument you are engaged in. I am following the thread that draws obvious conclusions - based on empirical evidence - on how Islamic faiths actually conduct themselves (amongst one another and toward non-Islamics). Are there "good" Muslims? sure. but the overwhelming evidence is that power is ceded to those who are violent. and the trend is toward government based on Islam - ask any Coptic for a reference on how that has worked out. that is what has been going on for a long, long time. The Obama administration policy is based partly on assertions and/or assumptions you make and we are seeing that those are not accurate.

    hate or fear? that's all you have in the quiver? cuz your reasonning is just so clear and factually based that malevolent intent can be the only alternative? please.
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  18. #18

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    George Mason

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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    I get the tactic of trying to conflate extremes into generalizations.
    this quote is awesome.

    you're right, you certain do get that tactic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    this quote is awesome.

    you're right, you certain do get that tactic.
    only when squaring the circular reasoning you guys constantly put into play!
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  20. #20

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    George Mason

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    yeah i know, everyone else is always to blame
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