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Fred Davis is Representing Himself in Bizarre Lawsuit

MikeSr619 said:
With hands and legs blessed by God. Thank goodness John Riggins didn't play in this day and age.
Posted via BGO Mobile Device
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For every Riggins, there are 2,000 Pac Mans and far lesser-known players who let their stupidity get in the way of a successful NFL career.

Then again, maybe Shanahan won't mind having Pierre Garcon peeing on the floor during one of his offensive meetings.
 
You're right Mike, we'll never know of Riggo's indiscretions beyond the 5'OClock club and Lighten' up Sandy Baby but today is today and all are under the microscope, those who adapt will survive and those who don't will be subject to the scrutiny and ridicule they get.
 
Califan007 said:
You're putting the Goodell/Mara punishments on the contracts? lol...Wow.
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Now I think you're just intentionally trying to get a rise out of me. If you don't believe that the 36 million dollar hit we took was a result (directly or indirectly) of the contracts given to D-Hall and Haynesworthless , you're just being obtuse (intentionally or unintentionally).

Shanahan was trying to dump bad contracts from the prior regime! In other words, if Vinny had never given those players those contracts, Shanahan and Allen would not have tried to dump them in an uncapped year subsequently creating the scenario for us to take it up the *** by Goodell/Mara. Therefore, the hit we took was a result of the piss poor signings by Vinny. Yes! Those contracts were the origin of the cap hit!

Real simple Califan...in this case A+B=C!
 
Elephant said:
Now I think you're just intentionally trying to get a rise out of me. If you don't believe that the 36 million dollar hit we took was a result (directly or indirectly) of the contracts given to D-Hall and Haynesworthless , you're just being obtuse (intentionally or unintentionally).

Shanahan was trying to dump bad contracts from the prior regime! In other words, if Vinny had never given those players those contracts, Shanahan and Allen would not have tried to dump them in an uncapped year subsequently creating the scenario for us to take it up the *** by Goodell/Mara. Therefore, the hit we took was a result of the piss poor signings by Vinny. Yes! Those contracts were the origin of the cap hit!

Real simple Califan...in this case A+B=C!
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That's a bit like saying the reason the car was stolen was because you left the doors unlocked lol...
 
Califan, there are neighborhoods where leaving your car doors unlocked is, if not a direct invitation to have it stolen, at least an exceptionally unwise and imprudent move. I never left my car unlocked in a mall parking lot no matter where the mall was.

The point here is that the moves by Shanahan/Allen would never have been even a part of the equation if the contract load hadn't been in such poor shape upon arrival. El has a valid point, IMO. In hindsight, of course, the act of taking advantage of the uncapped season has had an unfortunate outcome but the possibilty of that outcome was likely considered so remote at the time that the actions taken seemed viable at the time.

The Redskins thought this was too nice a neighborhood to worry about leaving the car doors unlocked while the car was parked.

They were wrong.
 
I hate to pile on, Califan, but serv & El are right. Whether or not the decision was fair (it was not), the penalties against the Cap this season are due to bloated, terrible contracts given to Hall & Hanesworth. There is a direct cause & effect relationship between the two.
 
servumtuum said:
Califan, there are neighborhoods where leaving your car doors unlocked is, if not a direct invitation to have it stolen, at least an exceptionally unwise and imprudent move. I never left my car unlocked in a mall parking lot no matter where the mall was.

The point here is that the moves by Shanahan/Allen would never have been even a part of the equation if the contract load hadn't been in such poor shape upon arrival. El has a valid point, IMO. In hindsight, of course, the act of taking advantage of the uncapped season has had an unfortunate outcome but the possibilty of that outcome was likely considered so remote at the time that the actions taken seemed viable at the time.

The Redskins thought this was too nice a neighborhood to worry about leaving the car doors unlocked while the car was parked.

They were wrong.
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In that case, we should really be blaming Shanahan and Haslett since it was the switch to the 3-4 that ultimately lead to Haynesworth's value to the team being diminished...which lead to Shanahan and Allen trying to find a way to make sure his salary wasn't still on the books past 2011. Or perhaps for not trading Haynesworth in 2010, which may have caused at least some of his salary to be taken off the team with him.

There's all sorts of ways you can whittle the "blame" down to one of several different origin points if you want...but the actual culprit for the Skins cap space being limited is Goodell, Mara and the NFL.
 
Lanky Livingston said:
I hate to pile on, Califan, but serv & El are right. Whether or not the decision was fair (it was not), the penalties against the Cap this season are due to bloated, terrible contracts given to Hall & Hanesworth. There is a direct cause & effect relationship between the two.
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No...because those contracts did not force Shanahan and Allen to make the decisions they did. And if anything, it's their decision to handle the contracts the way they did that lead to Goodell and Mara getting their panties in a bunch.
 
:rotflmao:

So what was Haynesworth's excuse in New England and Tampa and where is he now? You think that the switch to the 3-4 was the culprit for that Fat tub-o-lard's attitude? It was Fat Al's attitude that caused him to be who he was, it showed the year before they made the switch! In retrospect we can all say he should never have been signed in the first place!

Were mistakes made along the way by Shanahan and Allen when they were trying to deal with him? OK, I will cede that point, but the origin of all of it was Vinny Cerrato paying that fat **** way more than he ever should have!
 
Elephant said:
:rotflmao:

So what was Haynesworth's excuse in New England and Tampa and where is he now? You think that the switch to the 3-4 was the culprit for that Fat tub-o-lard's attitude?
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You misunderstood my point, it seems...

I wasn't trying to find blame for Haynesworth's attitude...I was trying to show how you could (if you wanted to) blame the cap space issues this year (and next) on the change to a 3-4 defense, knowing ahead of time it would (or seriously could) cause someone you already know has character issues to become even more of a headache. And as I also mentioned, you could further "blame" Shanahan's refusal to trade Haynesworth after Shanahan first came to the Skins...

It was Fat Al's attitude that caused him to be who he was, it showed the year before they made the switch! In retrospect we can all say he should never have been signed in the first place!
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Which goes back to the notion that--again, if you wanted to--you could "blame" the salary cap crap on Shanahan's refusal to trade Haynesworth in 2010.


Were mistakes made along the way by Shanahan and Allen when they were trying to deal with him? OK, I will cede that point, but the origin of all of it was Vinny Cerrato paying that fat **** way more than he ever should have!
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Nah, the "origin" was not in any specific place, because no matter what type of contract AH was signed to by Vinny, it did NOT force Shanahan and Allen to handle his contract the way they did.

And that doesn't even matter, because Shanahan and Allen did absolutelly NOTHING wrong in how they handled it...in fact, they were smart in what they did with AH's contract and with Hall's contract.

As tr1 pointed out, the salary cap issue should be an issue anchored in the commissioner and other NFL owners getting pissed off that the Skins and Cowboys did something they had every stinkin' right to do, but that the league didn't want them to do anyway. To paraphrase Mara, "How DARE they use a loophole to their advantage!!" lol..."Unfair competitive balance" is an empty phrase and has been used to justify the penalties (and will be used again for equally ludicrous reasons).
 
Wow! You can see the origin of the situation starting with Shanahan not handling Haynesowrth correctly, but fail to recognize the Fat piece of **** should never have been signed to such a ridiculous contract by Cerrato in the first place?

Califan...it's real simple! If Haynesworth was never signed to that contract Shanahan would not have had to try to dump it. Should he have traded him back to TN for a 3rd round pick? Yes! But if he was not here in the 1st place Shanahan would never have had to deal with him!

1.) Haynesworth signed to a ridiculous contract

2.) Haynesworth plays how he wants to play under Blache, creating a headache on the team in his 1st season, before Shanahan got here

3.) Shanahan arrives

4.) Fat Al wants his 21 million and Shanahan wants to dump some of his enormous salary perhaps trying make a trade more attractive while trying to take advantage of the lack of a salary cap

5.) Fat Al gets his money and thumbs his nose at Shanahan in the media

6.) A trade is attempted and Shanahan doesn't like what is being offered

7.) Fat Al thumbs his nose at Shanahan again by not showing up to mini-camp

8.) Shanahan says fine and plays hardball making the whole situation a big mess

9.) Fatso is traded

10.) 2011 season and Fatso withers into irrelevance after supposedly being the savior on the Pats horrible defense but ending up on the Bucs squad by season's end

11.) Just a couple of days before the start of FA Goodell hits us with a $36 million cap hit for the attempt to dump Fatso's contract in a uncapped year handing us a big pile of **** from Mara



There is the chronological progression of the entire mess, it started when Vinny Cerrato signed Fatso to a $100 million contract! That is the origin! That is where it all started! That is where we should place the largest portion of the blame! If Haynesworth was not signed then the salary dump would never have occurred to the extent it did.

Oh and another thought just came to me! If a trade had occurred, it would have happened after we paid Haynesworth the 21 million so the dump had already occurred so your argument about Shanahan's mistake to not trade Fatso back then is moot! In fact your whole argument is moot.

Say whatever you like from here on out. I am done. I feel like I am beating my head against the wall and all I keep thinking is you are being intentionally obtuse to get a rise out of me. Well, I am done. I have poked holes all through your argument but you continue to see it your way. Have fun!
 
Elephant said:
Wow! You can see the origin of the situation starting with Shanahan not handling Haynesowrth correctly, but fail to recognize the Fat piece of **** should never have been signed to such a ridiculous contract by Cerrato in the first place?

Califan...it's real simple! If Haynesworth was never signed to that contract Shanahan would not have had to try to dump it. Should he have traded him back to TN for a 3rd round pick? Yes! But if he was not here in the 1st place Shanahan would never have had to deal with him!

1.) Haynesworth signed to a ridiculous contract

2.) Haynesworth plays how he wants to play under Blache, creating a headache on the team in his 1st season, before Shanahan got here

3.) Shanahan arrives

4.) Fat Al wants his 21 million and Shanahan wants to dump some of his enormous salary perhaps trying make a trade more attractive while trying to take advantage of the lack of a salary cap

5.) Fat Al gets his money and thumbs his nose at Shanahan in the media

6.) A trade is attempted and Shanahan doesn't like what is being offered

7.) Fat Al thumbs his nose at Shanahan again by not showing up to mini-camp

8.) Shanahan says fine and plays hardball making the whole situation a big mess

9.) Fatso is traded

10.) 2011 season and Fatso withers into irrelevance after supposedly being the savior on the Pats horrible defense but ending up on the Bucs squad by season's end

11.) Just a couple of days before the start of FA Goodell hits us with a $36 million cap hit for the attempt to dump Fatso's contract in a uncapped year handing us a big pile of **** from Mara



There is the chronological progression of the entire mess, it started when Vinny Cerrato signed Fatso to a $100 million contract! That is the origin! That is where it all started! That is where we should place the largest portion of the blame! If Haynesworth was not signed then the salary dump would never have occurred to the extent it did.

Oh and another thought just came to me! If a trade had occurred, it would have happened after we paid Haynesworth the 21 million so the dump had already occurred so your argument about Shanahan's mistake to not trade Fatso back then is moot! In fact your whole argument is moot.

Say whatever you like from here on out. I am done. I feel like I am beating my head against the wall and all I keep thinking is you are being intentionally obtuse to get a rise out of me. Well, I am done. I have poked holes all through your argument but you continue to see it your way. Have fun!
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you know...I thought Shanahan was part of the problem with FATSO.......but I have come around to your pov El.
 
Don't get me wrong fan, Shanahan has some of the blame for the handling of Haynesworth on his shoulders, in retrospect that 3rd round pick TN offered should have been taken. But the reality is, even if they had traded Fatso for that 3rd round pick the contract dump was still a fact. And I still place blame on Mara and Goodell and the unfair, ridiculous notion that*they had the basis for which to apply the penalty.

I still return to the fact, if Vinny hadn't signed Fatso Shanahan would not have mishandled him and would never have given Mara and Goodell any traction to apply the penalty...or at least only the hit for D-Hall.
 
You can make the case for the Cap issues/Haynesworth issues being placed on Shanahan and Allen's heads.

Sure, the way they handled it and the decisions they made certainly contributed to Hanyesworth's lack of desire to play here. It also contributed to the fact that we couldn't trade him anywhere - our public disgust with him make it clear that it was a matter of time before we'd release him.

You can go through all of that Califan, and I'll disagree with you that Shanahan and Allen are to blame (or mostly to blame, or patially to blame). I'll respect your opinion, and in no way am I saying "you're wrong"; just that I disagree with you.

And heres why:

We got into the mess we were in because of Vinny Cerrato and Dan Snyder. The mess, to be clear, was that we had to: fire our GM (Vinny Cerrato), pay big bucks and give a contract that granted full authority of the organization to Mike Shannahan, and bring in the GM Mike wanted in Bruce Allen.

That mess was entirely caused by Vinny Cerrato and Dan Snyder. It started in 1999, and it went through 2010. It was started with signings like deon sanders, bruce smith, dana stubblefield, jeff george, et al. It was started with letting go of players like brian mitchell, brad johnson, stephen davis, et al.

It continued through with people like Clinton Portis.

It ended with Albert Haynesworth. In just a little over 10 years our organization became the place where over hyped, past their prime players came to pad their retirement with absurd contracts they never intended on, much less were capable of, living up to.

What Shanahan and Allen did to Haynesworth was a public showing that the Washington Redskins will no longer operate like that. They will no longer tolerate over hyped, over paid, past their prime if there was a prime to begin with players. You will be run out of town if you come here and don't work after getting your contract.

Not only that, you'll be run out of the league.

So you can blame Shanahan and Allen, but I think you're being short sighted. It was ~10 years of Vinny Cerrato that forced Shanahan and Allen to do what they did.
 
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Elephant said:
Wow! You can see the origin of the situation starting with Shanahan not handling Haynesowrth correctly, but fail to recognize the Fat piece of **** should never have been signed to such a ridiculous contract by Cerrato in the first place?
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Who's failing to recognize anything?...I mean, outside of you failing to recognize my point lol...

Califan...it's real simple! If Haynesworth was never signed to that contract Shanahan would not have had to try to dump it. Should he have traded him back to TN for a 3rd round pick? Yes! But if he was not here in the 1st place Shanahan would never have had to deal with him!
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Wrong there, too.

What if Haynesworth actually turned out to live up TO his contract?...Shanahan and Allen would have STILL done the same thing with his contract that they ended up doing anyway. They would have been idiots to NOT try and take advantage of the uncapped year in the manner that they did, regardless of whether or not Haynesworth was worth keeping on the team and at his salary level.

Again...nothing about that contract forced Shanahan and Allen's hands. Nothing. There were a lot of different ways they could have handled all of it...they weren't limited in any way, shape or form.

And again...I don't blame them one iota for doing it the way they did it...not because they had no choice, but because it was the smartest way to go about dealing with AH and his contract.

There is only one reason the Skins got penalized: and it has nothing whatsoever to do with Vinny or Hanyesworth or Shanahan and Allen being backed into a financial corner. None.
 
tshile said:
You can go through all of that Califan, and I'll disagree with you that Shanahan and Allen are to blame (or mostly to blame, or patially to blame). I'll respect your opinion, and in no way am I saying "you're wrong"; just that I disagree with you.
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You can't respect my opinion when you don't understand it lol :)...(no offense)

I never once said I thought Shanahan and Allen were to blame, completely, mostly or even partially. I've been completely adamant about that. I've only said that both men COULD be blamed just as much as Vinny if someone wanted to...and then showed how and why.

Me personally, I never blamed them at all...and said so a couple of times.

The blame, in my eyes, falls squarely on the shoulders of Goodell, Mara and other owners. That's it. Nobody else. They punished the Skins when they had no real right to punish them. Shanahan and Allen did nothing wrong...at all. If you want, you can add some blame to Smith of the NFLPA as well.
 
Well, its a fact that if Shanahan thought a 3rd-round pick was the best he could get for Fatso, he'd have shipped him to Tennessee immediately. However, I personally believe Shanahan thought he could get Fatso to perform at his all-star level, thereby increasing his trade value. It didn't happen, and we are hit with a $36M penalty.

My reasoning behind this is simple - I read an article about Shanahan the personnel evaluator, and the way he evaluates personnel is by watching their highlight reels. He believes that what a player does at his best is what he's capable of doing at all times. I don't know how accurate that was, as it was one of those anonymous scout type things (IIRC), but it makes sense in this situation also.
 
Califan007 said:
You can't respect my opinion when you don't understand it lol :)...(no offense)

I never once said I thought Shanahan and Allen were to blame, completely, mostly or even partially. I've been completely adamant about that. I've only said that both men COULD be blamed just as much as Vinny if someone wanted to...and then showed how and why.

Me personally, I never blamed them at all...and said so a couple of times.

The blame, in my eyes, falls squarely on the shoulders of Goodell, Mara and other owners. That's it. Nobody else. They punished the Skins when they had no real right to punish them. Shanahan and Allen did nothing wrong...at all. If you want, you can add some blame to Smith of the NFLPA as well.
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My apologies, and no offense taken. I'm happy you corrected me.

I still disagree with you, but now for different reason :)
 
tshile said:
My apologies, and no offense taken. I'm happy you corrected me.

I still disagree with you, but now for different reason :)
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:laugh:...There's definitely nothing wrong with disagreement. :)
 
Allen only made these moves because of the impossible situation Snyder and Cerrato had put the team in with these bad contracts in 2009.

If the team had pulled the plug on Zorn a year earlier and brought in a veteran coach the Haynesworth and Hall signings never would have happened.

Remember that the Giants were in there until the bidding went over $90M. So, for all the laughing there has been around the NFL at the Redskins, the Giants almost got stuck with Fat Albert.

Now that would have been pretty funny to see I must admit :)

The NFL is such a hard ass league.

In the NBA and the NHL you get to amnesty a bad contract once during the CBA and/or send a non-performing veteran to the minors to get his contract off the cap.

Here in the NFL you are stuck with the contract even if the ones that negotiated it are run out of town.

Remember when the Cleveland Cavaliers traded 5 consecutive #1 picks for questionable vets in the 1980's?

David Stern ended up giving the Cavaliers back a pick at the end of the first round when new ownership took over so the club could have SOME chance to come back and be relevant.

In the NFL, they believe the product is so good that even faced with a team that may go 2-14 or be a perennial hand job like the Browns, the fans are just going to pay up and take it.

The economics are going the other way, the NFL has just been strong enough until now to be among the last to feel it.
 
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