A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
'Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.' - Groucho Marx

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  1. #1

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    Florida Atlantic

    Default Rep Trey Gowdy's Speech

    The article this is posted in tries to paint this as a guy on the right letting the left "have it" with this speech, but I post it only as an example of a stellar political speech. Its actually a very non-political speech from Mr. Gowdy - its about getting to the heart and truth of the matter behind gun walking.

    I applaud Rep Gowdy, and I think we need more in government like him. Video is in the link below.

    http://thehayride.com/2012/06/stella...ntempt-debate/
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  2. #2

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    George Mason

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    i like the chariman and mr. cummings whispering the entire time, obviously not paying any attention.

    it was a good speech though and i agree with him, on every point.

    i just want to point out that the tactic of allowing someone to buy and transport illegal materials so that the 'bigger fish' can be found out is widely used by all law enforcement agencies, and has been for decades. it's been done using drugs (for gangs, cartels, etc), weapons (gangs, cartels, etc), and more recently explosive materials (fighting terrorism).

    i'm a bit surprised by how controversial this has become. of course some serious mistakes were made, but the idea that endorsing the general tactic is somehow criminal or stupid just baffles me.

    thats not to endorse holder, i think he's an idiot and clearly bias and i wish someone else would replace him. i also think congress has a right to the documents. i just don't get where this went from being a general tactic used by every agency to what it has become today. if someone can explain that, i'd certainly appreciate it. i feel like i'm missing something.

    (i get that a border patrol agent was killed... obviously mistakes were made)
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  3. #3

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    Florida Atlantic

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    I think that its on such a grand scale, as well as the fact that the government is trying to hide their involvement are the two main controversies.

    Not to mention, when this tactic is used in other areas of law enforcement, generally the drugs, guns, whatever are kept under very close scrutiny. In this operation, the guns were just allowed to disappear, either by strategy or (more likely) colossal mistake.
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  4. #4

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    George Mason

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    It was a mistake. Unless I'm remembering wrong, or what I saw on the news (back when this first broke) was wrong, the reason they lost the guns was because the batteries in the GPS units died and they had lost visual contact.

    Is that a huge mistake? Of course it is! I just can't understand why it's being treated this way.
    Last edited by tshile; 06-21-12 at 01:17 PM.
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  5. #5

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    they deliberately sent documents (in response to committee request) that were totally unrelated to the matter at hand. this is all part of a dilatory action to move any findings past Nov 4th.
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    Florida Atlantic

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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    Is that a huge mistake? Of course it is! I just can't understand why it's being treated this way.
    Because they didn't lose track of 2 kilos of cocaine, they lost track of 2000 automatic & semi-automatic weapons. The death of the border control agent is a politicization, I think - he might have been shot even without the guns - but even one US life being traced back to these guns is bad. Not to mention the countless number of Mexican lives that have been lost to these guns.

    Because it was a huge mistake, and the guns went missing. Because a lot of guns went missing. Because then the government/Obama tried to cover it up, and still hasn't been completely honest about it.

    I can't understand why you don't understand. And I'm usually a supporter of this administration.
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  7. #7

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    George Mason

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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    they deliberately sent documents (in response to committee request) that were totally unrelated to the matter at hand. this is all part of a dilatory action to move any findings past Nov 4th.
    oh yeah, that is inexcusable. they need to be accountable to congress. they're dodging is not acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Because they didn't lose track of 2 kilos of cocaine, they lost track of 2000 automatic & semi-automatic weapons. The death of the border control agent is a politicization, I think - he might have been shot even without the guns - but even one US life being traced back to these guns is bad. Not to mention the countless number of Mexican lives that have been lost to these guns.

    Because it was a huge mistake, and the guns went missing. Because a lot of guns went missing. Because then the government/Obama tried to cover it up, and still hasn't been completely honest about it.

    I can't understand why you don't understand. And I'm usually a supporter of this administration.
    Oh, I'm not trying to support the administration. Let me be very clear - my father worked in law enforcement and was one of the surveillance experts for where he worked. He was asked to work along with some of the alphabet soup agencies quite often towards the end of his career.

    When I turned 16 and got a car my car, unknown to me at the time, contained a GPS tracking device that emailed my dad where I was
    (side note: he wanted to make sure I wasn't speeding and running red lights. he didn't care that I was going places I wasn't telling him about I found about it years later)

    I'm well aware of all the different techniques, when they're used and why, and what they can do. I've had many and many of discussions with him about that over the last decade plus.

    BTW - if your phone's battery is in you can be very easily tracked. Doesn't even need to be on (depends on phone). Think about that next time you commit a crime.

    So I'm probably quite bias in that regard on this issue, but that bias has nothing to do with the political sides involved in the issue

    You get no argument from me that it was a giant screw up. You get no argument from me that people should be held accountable for what happened. And you get no argument from me that is most unfortunate that a US Citizen was murdered using one of these weapons.

    That said...

    It seems to me it's more of an issue of someone not properly keeping track of the weapons, not the tactic used in general. This tactic is used by countless different agencies for countless different things.

    You can minimize your cocaine analogy all you want, but if that slips through to young kids/adults in this country it is a big deal. As big of a deal as guns, no, but a big deal none the less.

    It just seems to me that this is yet another issue that snowballed out of control to the point where I see people claiming this is all just a conspiracy by the democrats and the ATF to get people killed by guns so we can renact the assault weapons ban... And I just don't understand it. But that may be entirely my fault, and maybe one day I'll get it
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  8. #8

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    t..that may seem to be logical to you...but the issue is what they were thinking and what they knew (and when).
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  9. #9

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    George Mason

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    Well, it would seem to me that what they were thinking is that they'd trace the guns back to the big players in the cartels.

    You know, the same cartels that have turned Mexico into a war zone for the last 5 or so years.

    The fact that they lost them is one thing, but the way the tactic is being attacked is what I don't understand. We've been using this tactic for decades, across the board.

    You guys ever watch Cops? They use it on a regular basis to bust drug deals and seekers

    I feel like I'm missing some critical information because I feel like I'm the one who doesn't get it
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  10. #10

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    George Mason

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    Let me rephrase what i'm trying to say this way:

    It would seem to me this is an issue with whoever was in charge of the operation making an error in how they planned on tracking the weapons and getting them back.

    However, it seems to me that this has turned into (yet another) republican vs democrat thing, that (as usual) is failing to actually address the problem but instead is causing tons of wasted money, time, anger, and just letting people on each side grand stand and try to score stupid political points (in an election year)

    (please don't take this as minimizing the death of the border agent. that is an unacceptable tragedy and someone should be held accountable for it. i just don't think i approve of the way it's being handled)
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  11. #11

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    disgaree...tracking is a process issue. intent and objectives entirely a different matter...what this is really about.
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  12. #12

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    George Mason

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    so, what do you think the intent was?

    what do you think the objectives were/are?

    I'm trying desperately here to get someone to explain to me why this is a political issue and not just an ineptitude of the person running the program issue. lanky has come closest to explaining it, but it still seems more of the later than the former to me
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    Well, it would seem to me that what they were thinking is that they'd trace the guns back to the big players in the cartels.

    You know, the same cartels that have turned Mexico into a war zone for the last 5 or so years.

    The fact that they lost them is one thing, but the way the tactic is being attacked is what I don't understand. We've been using this tactic for decades, across the board.

    You guys ever watch Cops? They use it on a regular basis to bust drug deals and seekers

    I feel like I'm missing some critical information because I feel like I'm the one who doesn't get it
    you know...I thought about your response a bit later. there's another problem: a mistake that involves 2000 guns? I don't think so.
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  14. #14

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    George Mason

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    Why? They do the same thing with kilo's of cocain. If it's a shipment it's a shipment... the size of it doesn't really change things. You're dealing with cartels who are trying to smuggle guns across the border. Do you think they're doing it in batches of 5 and 10?

    And you still haven't answered my questions

    I see a bunch of rampant speculation with no real basis for any of it. And that's not directed specifically at you - but the media/people in general. Please, provide me with a legitimate basis for why this is something more than a major screw up by the people running the program; please show me how this has become a democrat/administration agenda that got a border agent killed.

    As of right now those claims seem as ridiculous as the ones that Bush blew up the levies during Katrina because he hates black people... It just doesn't make sense and reeks of desperation during an election year...
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  15. #15

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    Florida Atlantic

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    They lost track of 2000 guns. That's it. That's the mystery. You don't just write off 2000 guns in the hands of mass murders as "oh, no big deal, happens all the time."

    Come on, man!
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  16. #16

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    George Mason

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    I'm not writing it off as no big deal, or that it happens all the time (the screwup part of it. they do use this tactic all the time, they just don't screw up like this normally).

    I'm asking why this is connected to the democrats or why it's connected to obama. I'm asking why it's holders fault (i don't like him, but i don't see where he did anything wrong in the operation. how he's addressing congress is an entirely different matter)

    I'm wondering why this went from a **** up by the person running the program to a giant conspiracy by the democrats and/or obama to take our guns away (as i keep hearing from many republicans) and what obama has to do with any of this. I'm actually curious what holder has to do with it... he approved a program that follows a template thats been approved by countless other people in many different agencies spanning back many decades.

    You're acting like this is obvious, yet I've seen nothing to answers those questions... Is it just the sole fact that it has to do with guns?

    Is it because you weren't aware that law enforcement regularly uses these tactics?

    Are you not aware that homeland security, CIA, NSA, and the FBI have been using these tactics in increasing numbers since 9/11 to catch terrorists? The difference? They're using explosive materials, not guns.

    I'm asking a simple question, how come there isn't a simple answer? You keep responding like I'm an idiot for not seeing it (and I may be, I just can't agree to that yet because I have seen nothing that suggest it - yet) yet the best answer is 'it's 2000 guns common man!'...
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  17. #17

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    George Mason

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    Quick question, should be easier than my previous questions, was this a small number of 'runs' that went missing that total 2000 weapons (say - 3 or 4 runs)?

    Or are they brining 5 guns across at a time, and over the series of years it's totaled 2000 guns?

    My understanding was it was the former... but reading what some people are saying I'm now questioning if I'm wrong on that, and that it was the later. That would make a huge difference and may be the piece of information i'm missing...


    *****
    edit:

    ok, ding ding ding, we have a winner. that was the missing piece of information. I thought this was a small number of sales involving a large number of guns (hence my comment to fansince62 earlier about it not being packages of 5-10).
    But it looks like it was many many times with small numbers of guns over the years.

    Yeah... if you keep losing the guns don't make any effort to improve your tracking and just keep funneling them out then I completely understand the outrage and now some of the cover up issues make complete sense to me.

    I seriously thought it was 1-4 deals that just went terribly wrong, hence me being super confused as to the course this has taken.

    In short - i didn't have correct information and am indeed the idiot on this one

    lol
    Last edited by tshile; 06-22-12 at 02:16 PM.
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  18. #18

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    Hey t, I can't vouch for the source or accuracy here, but a quick read seems to address some of your questions. At the very least, it might steer us all towards more information. I don't know.
    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybens..._bush_is_a_lie
    ...Wide Receiver actually involved not gun-walking but controlled delivery. Unlike gun-walking, which seems (for good reason) to have been unheard of until Fast & Furious, controlled delivery is a very common law enforcement tactic. Basically, the agents know the bad guys have negotiated a deal to acquire some commodity that is either illegal itself (e.g., heroin, child porn) or illegal for them to have/use (e.g., guns, corporate secrets). The agents allow the transfer to happen under circumstances where they are in control — i.e., they are on the scene conducting surveillance of the transfer, and sometimes even participating undercover in the transfer. As soon as the transfer takes place, they can descend on the suspects, make arrests, and seize the commodity in question — all of which makes for powerful evidence of guilt.
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  19. #19

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    Florida Atlantic

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    Ax's article brings up another great point - gun walking is NOT the same tactic as law enforcement has been using. Law enforcement uses controlled delivery tactics; this was uncontrolled. Basically, let's spit into the wind, and hopefully we'll put out some fires.
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  20. #20

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    George Mason

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    Thanks for the article Ax, it confirms the mental road i was starting to go down.

    And the difference i noted earlier between what i thought vs what i know now changes my opinion on the program. I really thought it was 1-4 deals gone wrong, which is why I was confused.

    And Lanky, thats exactly what I was saying... It was a botched version of that controlled delivery tactic, and should have been treated as such. I don't get the conspiracy stuff, but i'm not against the idea that there's more information out there that I'm just unaware of that supports that.

    I cannot lie, I have not paid attention to this very much. When it first broke I sent a note to a buddy of mine going 'look, stupid ATF, they let the GPS batteries die'. Next thing I know its turned into an obama/democrat conspiracy to take our guns away; hence my confusion.

    Lastly, ther eis a difference between the program and how it was run and how Obama, Holder, and higher ups in the justice department and the ATF have handled being questioned by congress. I do not in any way support the way they've interacted with congress, and was in no way trying to defend that.
    Last edited by tshile; 06-22-12 at 03:00 PM.
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