A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
'Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.' - Groucho Marx

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Thread: let's see now

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    Default let's see now

    $58,000 dollars of new debt every second. Obama's solution is to raise taxes and borrow even more money to fund even more stimulus spending.

    my question to the assembled BGO experts: when and how violent will the reaction be when the crisis comes?
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    No matter who is elected, I think you're right. A crisis is coming, and personally I think Social Security will be the trigger. When we can no longer fund SS, it's gonna be ugly.
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    One huge possibility, that I have been talking about for months, is being laughed at as impossible. I will state again, that depending on the exact trigger, and how big of a trigger it is, a second U.S. Civil War is a very real possibility. Whether it's a blood war like the first, or more along the lines of the Cold War, still remains to be seen.

    There are several things going on right now that are like powder kegs waiting to explode.
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    Very true. Sad to see that the third world or lesser developed countries have no problem getting organized and taking control of a bad situation. Then us, with all of our education, power and money.....we do nothing. I'm not suggesting we should all get together and have a violent uprising, but we have the power to stop the madness. If people would wake up and realize that we're all Americans, and things are not going in the right direction, we could make a real change in this country.

    The problem, and I urge our Liberal members not to take this the wrong way, is that a large portion of people on the left seem to be saying things are on the right track. This isn't a Democrat vs. Republican issue. Our country is heading up a creek without a paddle, and it's every politician's fault. Whether the left truly believes that, I don't know, but it does appear to be what they are saying.

    The path we're currently on will come to a head. If the SCOTUS does not strike down Obamacare, and Obama wins reelection, I believe it will greatly accelerate the firestorm, and I do believe it could become violent if both of those things were to happen.

    People need to stop kidding themselves and realize that the majority of people are sitting on the very edge of their breaking point, just looking for an excuse.
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    "I'm not suggesting we should all get together and have a violent uprising, but we have the power to stop the madness."

    I don't believe we have the power to stop anything. Both parties are bought off. Anyone who goes to DC with good intentions will either have to be bought off, or they will never get anything passed and will serve only one term.

    Any third party will also be bought off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    $58,000 dollars of new debt every second. Obama's solution is to raise taxes and borrow even more money to fund even more stimulus spending.

    my question to the assembled BGO experts: when and how violent will the reaction be when the crisis comes?
    I'm not sure that a reaction is coming anytime soon. The powers that be have done a pretty successful job of appeasing and quieting the public. Expectations have been lowered, and dependance on the government has greatly increased.

    Pissed about the economy? No worries, we'll extend unemployment to two years.

    House underwater? We'll get you some back. And so on, and so on.

    Legalize pot? Yeah, we'll take a serious look at that too.

    When the time to pay the piper really comes, all of these politicians will already be retired and long gone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD5 View Post
    I don't believe we have the power to stop anything. Both parties are bought off. Anyone who goes to DC with good intentions will either have to be bought off, or they will never get anything passed and will serve only one term.

    Any third party will also be bought off.
    This is pretty much it.

    The voting public is mired in a 50/50 partisan split that continues to slowly sink the entire nation with them. And it won't change anytime soon. The parties are too dug in. We already are in a war with ourselves. Have been for some time. Nothing earth shattering there.

    I can fix it all. Grant me complete power, and inside of two years, the world will either be fixed, or dead. One way or the other, problem solved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD5 View Post
    "I'm not suggesting we should all get together and have a violent uprising, but we have the power to stop the madness."

    I don't believe we have the power to stop anything. Both parties are bought off. Anyone who goes to DC with good intentions will either have to be bought off, or they will never get anything passed and will serve only one term.

    Any third party will also be bought off.
    Such a defeatist attitude. Sadly, I can not argue one iota against this. DC is so corrupt it's not funny. Cronyism is a huge problem that doesn't get enough attention, and the lack of attention is one of my main complaints with the media. Colbert has done a nice job of poking fun at Super Pacs lately, but sadly, these instruments allow, and even encourage more cronyism, and straight up purchasing of elections. When our political system is representative more of special interests and big business than the people, we have a serious problem.

    And this is no more a jab at the Right than Extreme's was to the Left. This is a major, debilitating problem on both sides.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    Very true. Sad to see that the third world or lesser developed countries have no problem getting organized and taking control of a bad situation. Then us, with all of our education, power and money.....we do nothing. I'm not suggesting we should all get together and have a violent uprising, but we have the power to stop the madness. If people would wake up and realize that we're all Americans, and things are not going in the right direction, we could make a real change in this country.

    The problem, and I urge our Liberal members not to take this the wrong way, is that a large portion of people on the left seem to be saying things are on the right track. This isn't a Democrat vs. Republican issue. Our country is heading up a creek without a paddle, and it's every politician's fault. Whether the left truly believes that, I don't know, but it does appear to be what they are saying.

    The path we're currently on will come to a head. If the SCOTUS does not strike down Obamacare, and Obama wins reelection, I believe it will greatly accelerate the firestorm, and I do believe it could become violent if both of those things were to happen.

    People need to stop kidding themselves and realize that the majority of people are sitting on the very edge of their breaking point, just looking for an excuse.
    So those of us who do lean left, what are we to do? Are you suggesting voting for Romney even though I disagree with a fair amount of his platform to placate the people on the Right who are ready to break? What about the people on the left who are just as sure about their position as FS is about his? The middle generally decide the election, so I guess all the pressure is on us? Choose right (correctly and figuratively) or there will be a Civil War?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    So those of us who do lean left, what are we to do? Are you suggesting voting for Romney even though I disagree with a fair amount of his platform to placate the people on the Right who are ready to break? What about the people on the left who are just as sure about their position as FS is about his? The middle generally decide the election, so I guess all the pressure is on us? Choose right (correctly and figuratively) or there will be a Civil War?
    Absolutely not, because Romney isn't the answer either. We're stuck in a bad position of too few options. I was speaking more to the people wo sit there and praise Obama all day and continue to say and do nothing to change the path we're on, even if just by vocalizing it, because they approve of the path we're on. It's the same as the Republicans who even in his last 2 years, thought Bush was wonderful.

    Everybody needs to get out of Washington. We either need to replace them all, or come up with a new government entirely, because this **** isn't working anymore. The people could demand term limits, and show up by the tens of millions to make it happen. We could accomplish more if people camped out at their houses in droves instead of Wall Street, but people are too stupid to see that.

    And when all else fails, that's when you have to seriously consider more drastic measures like we've seen in Egypt, Iran, Syria, Libya, etc. People are quick to say we're too civilized and it's crazy, but it's been proven thousands of times throughout history that crazy works. Something needs to be done to show these assholes that we're the bosses. They work for us. Until that happens, we'll continue to spiral out of control.
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    we cannot sustain the path we are on fiscally. there are many who believe we are not being told just how serious the problem really is. add to this a situation in which there are huge dependencies....heck.....I'll concede that my military pension IS a big deal to me....then crisis happens when these flows (SS, medicare, medicaid, pensions, unemployment compensation, disability allowances, etc., etc.) stop or are cut back. it won't be class warfare....it'll be the entire system under fire. no matter how you cut it...austerity is going happen. if taxes rise and inflation increases all at the same time - wow.....just....wow.

    though unpopular...I continue to believe cuts in spending directed at the heart of the social welfare state and too many wars are going to HAVE to occur.....soon. it's not going to be pleasant. it will be a downgrade in the standard of living for just about everyone. heck....it's already happening if you pay attention to what municipalities are doing with taxes and what's happening with the cost of everything from food to commodity services like cable TV. we're already getting squeezed by expansionist monetary and macroeconomic policies that have failed.

    this plays into the compromise theme t has voiced. while there is common sense to that plea on one plane...I think it is off the table as a possibility because too many of us see that this would not fix the problem - on all sides...it would reflect an effort to preserve as much as possible rather than fix core drivers.....the country is going to have to decide what its fundamental identity is going to be. which rounds back to the original question: is crisis inevitable?

    on the flip side.....the Defense Department has been making major league cuts over the last year...with more to come. so there is room. I don't know whether these cuts are adequate, but the hard decisions in this part of the budget are being made. will the same happen with all the entitlement categories?
    Last edited by fansince62; 05-15-12 at 07:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    The middle generally decide the election, so I guess all the pressure is on us?
    This is true. It is also, the problem. Being in the middle rarely seems to solve anything. It just pushes it down the road a bit.

    Tough decisions need to be made, and then everybody needs to go "all in" to give those decisions a chance to truly succeed. While there are currently no good choices between left, or right, we have a better chance of making progress by choosing one, or the other.

    Reelecting Obama, whom I consider to be a bad joke, will likely take things much further towards the left's utopia of Government Everything. If we knew that he was going to be reelected, then we should just vote for every D, in every race, of every state. Followed by doing the same thing in the following mid terms.

    The sooner they destroy the country, the sooner we can forever remove the ideology from our minds.

    The reverse wouldn't be the greatest thing either. Putting the R's in charge of everything, the federal, state, county, and municipalities would be restrictive for many people. But I don't believe it would be as ultimately destructive to the nation as giving total control to the left.

    But, as you said, the middle will keep things in the middle. And we'll continue to dance the Do-Nothing waltz.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    we cannot sustain the path we are on fiscally. there are many who believe we are not being told just how serious the problem really is.
    I'm one of those people. It comes with being a realist. Too many people think everything is fine, and to me that's half the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    though unpopular...I continue to believe cuts in spending directed at the heart of the social welfare state and too many wars are going to HAVE to occur.....soon.
    Yeah, but it's easy to ask for cuts in programs you receive nothing from. It's like how the rich always preach cutting welfare, food stamps, etc., bu flip their lids if a tax increase is suggested. I'm not saying either way is right or wrong, I'm just saying it takes balls to support a cut in something you benefit from.

    Asking for cuts in programs you gain nothing from is the easy way out. The sooner people pull their heads out of the sand and realize we ALL need to make sacrifices to straighten this mess out, the sooner we can start working toward real change.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    on the flip side.....the Defense Department has been making major league cuts over the last year...with more to come. so there is room. I don't know whether these cuts are adequate, but the hard decisions in this part of the budget are being made. will the same happen with all the entitlement categories?
    The biggest problem with our government, is their ignorance. They are too quick to pat themselves on the back when they cut $100 million form a $15 trillion deficit. That's good for nothing. Real cuts need to be made.

    Half the problem with government spending, is we have 10 people doing the job 1 person does in any other country. When I worked for the state in the prison system, I got assigned to the mail room for a few months, because everyone had to do it. There were 7 employees in the mail room, each making over $30,000 a year plus benefits. I know from doing it, that it was not too much work for 1 person to do on their own. The entire government is like that, complete waste.

    Then you have the salaries of our politicians. They are almost all filthy rich already, but we pay them hundreds of thousands of dollars each, AND give them lifetime pensions that they have no need for? It's absurd.

    Not since 1775 have we needed a revolution so badly as we do now. This **** has to stop. The longer we all sit around bitching instead of doing something about it, the worse it will get. Inaction accomplishes nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    we cannot sustain the path we are on fiscally. there are many who believe we are not being told just how serious the problem really is. add to this a situation in which there are huge dependencies....heck.....I'll concede that my military pension IS a big deal to me....then crisis happens when these flows (SS, medicare, medicaid, pensions, unemployment compensation, disability allowances, etc., etc.) stop or are cut back. it won't be class warfare....it'll be the entire system under fire. no matter how you cut it...austerity is going happen. if taxes rise and inflation increases all at the same time - wow.....just....wow.

    though unpopular...I continue to believe cuts in spending directed at the heart of the social welfare state and too many wars are going to HAVE to occur.....soon. it's not going to be pleasant. it will be a downgrade in the standard of living for just about everyone. heck....it's already happening if you pay attention to what municipalities are doing with taxes and what's happening with the cost of everything from food to commodity services like cable TV. we're already getting squeezed by expansionist monetary and macroeconomic policies that have failed.

    this plays into the compromise theme t has voiced. while there is common sense to that plea on one plane...I think it is off the table as a possibility because too many of us see that this would not fix the problem - on all sides...it would reflect an effort to preserve as much as possible rather than fix core drivers.....the country is going to have to decide what its fundamental identity is going to be. which rounds back to the original question: is crisis inevitable?

    on the flip side.....the Defense Department has been making major league cuts over the last year...with more to come. so there is room. I don't know whether these cuts are adequate, but the hard decisions in this part of the budget are being made. will the same happen with all the entitlement categories?
    Interesting post. I agree with just about all of it. I especially agree with the entitlement programs need to be cut, and cut drastically, and done so soon. I do not agree they need to be eliminated, if you were inferring that. The problem, as many have said, is that old people who receive Social Security (to use one example) actually vote, and the politicians can't risk pissing them off. Term limits, anyone?

    A huge problem with the defense cuts you cited Al, is that much of that is being outsourced, a lot of which is at great waste and over-billing. We need more transparency regarding both contractors and sub-contractors and payment details so we know what is really going on. Instead, however, all these things are shrouded in mystery, a lot of contracts are awarded without an open bid process, and the logical conclusion one draws is that Super PAC money is not only buying votes, but contracts. Term limits would help here as well, but also more transparency involved with Super Pac contributions would help as well.

    Going back to the entitlements, I would be in favor of the following changes:
    1) anyone receiving public assistance (on any level) must perform some sort of community service on a sliding scale (ie, the more you receive, the more hours you must log). This would include tasks that most if not all disabled people could perform.
    2) A temporary increase in expenditures is in order. Before you hang me, let me explain. Take welfare and food stamps. Every social worker I have ever spoken with tells me they are overworked to death. So hire more of them. Lots more of them. Stimulate the economy while reducing workloads in order to ferret out the scammers from the people who genuinely need the assistance.
    3) educate the church community about how they can help in their neighborhoods. Again, more money spent to educate, but if done properly, it can be very effective. My father has just completed four training sessions around the East Coast for pastors, helping them to identify soldiers with PTSD symptons; in addition to the identification process, the VA also helps train these pastors about the services they offer, and how they can help the veterans get help. (This was actually my brain child for the most part, so yeah, I'm gonna brag. It was undeniably cool to see this work so well in action). Now expand that to educating churches about the importance of free health clinics and the like that could cut down even more on the strain the poor put on our government. It never ceases to amaze me that just about every church I walk in to has several missionary families in Zambia (or wherever) that they support, but only about half of them that I talk to have a food pantry.
    4) Cut down on the cost of health care. Not health insurance, health care. That was Obama's biggest mistake, imo. He put the cart before the horse. Go after driving down the ridiculously, crippling costs of health first, then go for health insurance for everyone. Bass-ackwards, imo. Anyway, let's allow more choice for people for their health insurace - allow more competition across state lines as well as many other quick actions that can be taken to drive down costs.

    All right, gotta go visit one of those churches without a food pantry now... at least I have something I can talk with them about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    entitlement programs need to be cut, and cut drastically, and done so soon. I do not agree they need to be eliminated, if you were inferring that. The problem, as many have said, is that old people who receive Social Security (to use one example) actually vote, and the politicians can't risk pissing them off. Term limits, anyone?
    Term limits are so beyond overdue it isn't even funny. It'll never happen though, because Democrats have always been willing to do whatever it takes to keep it from becoming a real possibility. The Republicans are scumbags in the matter too, because they always allow the Democrats barter their way into not taking it to a vote. They're all crooked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    Going back to the entitlements, I would be in favor of the following changes:

    1) anyone receiving public assistance (on any level) must perform some sort of community service on a sliding scale (ie, the more you receive, the more hours you must log). This would include tasks that most if not all disabled people could perform.
    This would actually cause more problems. You'd have scammers pretending to get injuries so they could sue and make money, you'd have to pay people to monitor and organize and track each recipient and their progress, then you'd have to keep books on all of it. This is one of those things that sounds good on the surface, but would likely triple the current cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    2) A temporary increase in expenditures is in order. Before you hang me, let me explain. Take welfare and food stamps. Every social worker I have ever spoken with tells me they are overworked to death. So hire more of them. Lots more of them. Stimulate the economy while reducing workloads in order to ferret out the scammers from the people who genuinely need the assistance.
    My Aunt and Cousin are Social Workers and say the same thing all the time. But rather than hire more case workers, I have always believed that if they were to hire an investigative team to track anyone on food stamps and welfare, and root out the scammers, that would save hundreds of millions every year. But another problem with welfare/food stamps, is that the state and federal governments work together on the handling of everything, so a lot of the problems are a matter of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. They either need to give the federal government total control over these programs, or let the states handle it entirely themselves, under guidelines they set themselves within federal criteria.

    When you have too many hands in on something, disaster is inevitable. They can't both do the job together, but they're trying to anyway and that's half the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me that just about every church I walk in to has several missionary families in Zambia (or wherever) that they support, but only about half of them that I talk to have a food pantry.
    This is a big problem I have with churches around here. They spend tons of money helping people everywhere but here. It's so bad that my daughter, when she was 6 years old, asked me why god loves people in Africa more than people here. And I completely understand how she came to that conclusion. The worst is the Wave church. Massive church with tens of millions of dollars, and almost all of it goes to the pastor and his wife (who I adore because they are very awesome people) to travel and spread their message around the world, and build up their already oversized and overly extravagant church. TAX FREE.

    And just like you said, if you are starving and in desperate need of food, you can call probably a dozen churches before you find one with a food pantry. And then it's usually open one day a week, and the food is almost always spoiled. They have no standards they are bound by. I was in that position once, it isn't a good thing to rely on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    4) Cut down on the cost of health care. Not health insurance, health care. That was Obama's biggest mistake, imo. He put the cart before the horse. Go after driving down the ridiculously, crippling costs of health first, then go for health insurance for everyone. Bass-ackwards, imo.
    You're exactly right, and it's nice to see a lefty that gets it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    This would actually cause more problems. You'd have scammers pretending to get injuries so they could sue and make money, you'd have to pay people to monitor and organize and track each recipient and their progress, then you'd have to keep books on all of it. This is one of those things that sounds good on the surface, but would likely triple the current cost.
    Yeah, I know. This was the one part of my list I thought was weakest. I do believe, however, that a system could possibly be designed that might be able to work well. But then again, if the government was involved, it would inevitably be over-budget and ineffective.

    The problem with welfare and food stamps is that we are fostering the lack of a good work ethic. Not for everyone, of course; as I have always stated, there are those who used the hand up to better themselves, get back on their feet, etc. and then moved off the assistance programs. But what is staggering to me is the number of people who are evidently content to simply sit on their asses all day long and contribute nothing to society or their families. I have trouble identifying with that. Giving those people some sort of task to do which might at some point, in some of them, foster satisfaction in a job well done is important.

    But I agree that the risks are large. And they may outweigh the rewards. I don't think the answer is elimination of the programs, just better oversight, perhaps.


    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    My Aunt and Cousin are Social Workers and say the same thing all the time. But rather than hire more case workers, I have always believed that if they were to hire an investigative team to track anyone on food stamps and welfare, and root out the scammers, that would save hundreds of millions every year. But another problem with welfare/food stamps, is that the state and federal governments work together on the handling of everything, so a lot of the problems are a matter of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. They either need to give the federal government total control over these programs, or let the states handle it entirely themselves, under guidelines they set themselves within federal criteria.
    You make an excellent point. A lot of problems in the education system arise from this situation as well. Personally, I am all for a fairly small federal government, and enabling states to run things as they see fit. I think the social applications and lessons learned would be nothing short of fascinating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    Yeah, I know. This was the one part of my list I thought was weakest. I do believe, however, that a system could possibly be designed that might be able to work well. But then again, if the government was involved, it would inevitably be over-budget and ineffective.

    The problem with welfare and food stamps is that we are fostering the lack of a good work ethic. Not for everyone, of course; as I have always stated, there are those who used the hand up to better themselves, get back on their feet, etc. and then moved off the assistance programs. But what is staggering to me is the number of people who are evidently content to simply sit on their asses all day long and contribute nothing to society or their families. I have trouble identifying with that. Giving those people some sort of task to do which might at some point, in some of them, foster satisfaction in a job well done is important.

    But I agree that the risks are large. And they may outweigh the rewards. I don't think the answer is elimination of the programs, just better oversight, perhaps.

    You make an excellent point. A lot of problems in the education system arise from this situation as well. Personally, I am all for a fairly small federal government, and enabling states to run things as they see fit. I think the social applications and lessons learned would be nothing short of fascinating.
    Absolutely. To all of it.
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  18. #18

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    Goal...eliminating entitlement programs would bring the same crisis...so I don't favor that. There needs to be a long national discussion on what is needed, what is nice to have....how much future generations have to shoulder the burden and how much those at the end of the line should suffer in cuts. we have put this unpleasant day off for far too long. I know I don't relish it - some of my retirement plans were based on income flows that are not going to happen.

    and it would really, really, really, really be nice....if we had an administration (dem, repub, libertarian...I don't care at this point) that understood business and the economy and knew how to jumpstart the growth engine. even that, however, would be contentious (I suspect) since it would run counter to some closely held virtues in communities such as environmentalism.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    my question to the assembled BGO experts: when and how violent will the reaction be when the crisis comes?
    Bad, real bad. Something i don't really even want to think about. I say another full blown WW or civil war. Either way, our standard of living will be reduced to 3rd world status.

    I really see no doable fix regardless of who's Pres. As a country we produce nothing and on the world stage we're nothing but a practicial consumer state. You could blow up the entire US and the rest of the world would keep on ticking without skipping a beat. There would be a few less sweat shops around the world and that's about it.
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  20. #20

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    Goal...would better automation and a comprehensive data strategy relieve if not outright improve the burdens/inefficiencies plaguing the social worker community?
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