A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
'Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.' - Groucho Marx

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    Default Obama Endorses Gay Marriage

    Effectively setting a new record for the number of gimmicks someone will use to gain more votes. (Maybe someone should tell him gay people already vote Democrat for the most part)

    Seriously? I support gay marriage, I've been pretty clear about that for a while now. But this is just getting pathetic. It's a desperate move by a man willing to take whatever steps he feels are necessary to ensure his political survival. Anyone who sees it as genuine, well that's your choice, but deep down you know better.

    Who wants to take bets on his next change of heart? Will he legalize drugs? Appoint Jesus the new VP? Grant gun rights to felons? There doesn't appear to be a ceiling yet for what he'll do for votes.
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    Obama can't do anything without it being a 'gimmick.' Can't this just be a honest change of heart on a pertinent topic? I mean, god forbid a sitting president changes his stance on something. That's NEVER happened!
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    180 days..........
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Obama can't do anything without it being a 'gimmick.' Can't this just be a honest change of heart on a pertinent topic? I mean, god forbid a sitting president changes his stance on something. That's NEVER happened!
    This isn't a change of heart, and I wish you could see through that. He went from being steadfastly clear that he was against gay marriage, then when it became clear Romney was the GOP candidate, polls started showing Romney beating Obama in the election. Then Obama just happens to have a change of heart? In an election year? Right after he drops in the polls to become the likely loser at this stage? You can't seriously buy that. It's absolutely a gimmick.

    You say can't he do anything without it being a gimmick? I can pose a similar question to you.......is every change of heart he has genuine, given the timing? Or can you acknowledge that maybe sometimes a supposed change of heart, timed the way this was, is a gimmick?

    This also just happens to coincide with polls showing him losing support among gays, and Joe Biden announcing once again that he supports gay marriage. It absolutely has gimmick written all over it. Luckily though, we've seen how the voting public votes on flip-floppers.

    It's one of those situations where his supporters will call it genuine, his detractors will call it a gimmick, and none of us will change our minds, which is fine. But just watch, he isn't done yet. I have a feeling that the closer we get to the election, the more topics he will have a change of heart on And I will point it out every time to keep score, for kicks if nothing else.
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    So - Lanky - do you know anyone who doesn't know, pretty emphatically, where they stand on this issue? I don't. I think it's wishful thinking on your part that the President of the United States suddenly got some new information on this topic that moved him to a new position.

    It's called positioning yourself for an upcoming campaign. We'll likely see Romney 'refining' some of his positions as he prepares to go head-to-head (no pun intended). I don't see it as that big a deal - these guys aren't normal human beings, who rarely change their opinions, they're career politicians who shed positions whenever the wind blows too hard.

    Call it what it is.
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    Thank you.

    For the record, that head -to-head comment......gold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    ....they're career politicians who shed positions whenever the wind blows too hard.

    Call it what it is.
    perhaps a better choice of words may be in order?

    of course the Prez is playing politics with convictions - the African American community has very definite positions on this particular issue and he skated around it for as long as he could.....i.e., until Biden forced his hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    So - Lanky - do you know anyone who doesn't know, pretty emphatically, where they stand on this issue? I don't. I think it's wishful thinking on your part that the President of the United States suddenly got some new information on this topic that moved him to a new position.

    It's called positioning yourself for an upcoming campaign. We'll likely see Romney 'refining' some of his positions as he prepares to go head-to-head (no pun intended). I don't see it as that big a deal - these guys aren't normal human beings, who rarely change their opinions, they're career politicians who shed positions whenever the wind blows too hard.

    Call it what it is.
    I happen to agree completely with you on what is going on here, and suspect that as the primary season ends, we will see Romney distance himself from the Tea Party crowd as well... politics as normal.

    Having said that, my position on this issue has changed 180 degrees in the past 2-3 years. The idea that people can't or won't change their minds with better information is silly, frankly.
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    I didn't say it was impossible. And we're not talking about you - we're talking about a guy who's already run for President once and whose entire focus for years of his life has been refining his position and core beliefs. He's not Joe Average Citizen.

    It strains credulity to believe this isn't about politics.

    I'm fine with that - but let's call it what it almost certainly is.
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    And Romney is the one who is labeled the "flip-flopper"
    What do we call Obama - the chameleon ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    I happen to agree completely with you on what is going on here, and suspect that as the primary season ends, we will see Romney distance himself from the Tea Party crowd as well... politics as normal.

    Having said that, my position on this issue has changed 180 degrees in the past 2-3 years. The idea that people can't or won't change their minds with better information is silly, frankly.
    Goal....your point is well taken...I'd add in a few refinements:

    - we live in an age (Internet notwithstanding) in which it is HARDER not easier to TRUST information and analysis as authoritative, accurate, unbiased, etc., etc. The other night I slipped from regimen and watched the pig slop that is local news - channel 9 to be specific. the segment I caught covered the impending interest rate increase for student loans. there was the duty "we could fund this for X weeks of the cost of Afghanistan war" statement from some collegiate genius i will never hire followed by a "reporter" declaring that that the increase in interest rates would nearly double the cost of student loans. there was no mention of the fact that the legislation that caused the entire debacle was a poison pill led by Pelosi and Reid when the Democrats controlled both wings of Congress. There was no mention that the rate increase impacts new loans...not existing loans. what is one to conclude? the reporters are blatantly stupid (i.e., recent graduates of higher education). or, blatantly biased? (and should therefore be wearing brown shirts for easier discrimination by discerning audiences)

    - some isues are inherently moral. there's more to the thought process than better information for these sorts of problems.

    as for your point on Romney....no doubt. One would expect that as an individual running for President he defines himself in ways that aren't completely in lock-step with any specific organized block of voters. I submit to you the following:

    - it'll be more interesting to watch how he adheres/departs from the interests of the conservative base as he approaches the narrow block of voters who define themeslves as Independents

    - to the degree that the Tea Party continues to marshall the Republican base and win elections....he'll have to address their major themes.

    for me....I think the more critical issue is who controls the Senate and House come Nov. while any Pres can do a lot of damage...the more Congress can bound/contain the damage.....the better off we are. let your imagination float above the clouds for a moment - wouldn't it be wonderful to have a Senate that actually observed its Constitutional responsibilities and passed a budget?!!!!!
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    "Steadfastly against" gay marriage is a bit of a stretch; he's always been for civil unions and equal rights. And being against gay marriage is unfortunately a prerequisite for anyone who wants to win an election, so it doesn't say much that he was against it 4 years ago. And regardless of what his stance USED to be, this is a political gamble in which he stands to gain little.

    I'm also with Goaldie - its silly to think people can't change their minds on an idea. Its said that his family changed his mind - I can totally see that happening. Too much skepticism these days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    "Steadfastly against" gay marriage is a bit of a stretch; he's always been for civil unions and equal rights.
    Not always, he didn't even switch his stance to favoring civil unions until after the fact as well. He went from no, I don't agree with it, to civil unions should be enough, to hey, I support it fully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    And being against gay marriage is unfortunately a prerequisite for anyone who wants to win an election, so it doesn't say much that he was against it 4 years ago.
    So you're saying he says what people want to hear to get elected? I know all politicians do it, and you won't get an argument from me, but it's nice to hear someone from the left admit that about Obama

    Honestly though, you're saying he is genuine now, so that would mean he was ingenuine before. So if he was ingenuine before, doesn't that at least raise the possibility that he's ingenuine now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    And regardless of what his stance USED to be, this is a political gamble in which he stands to gain little.
    Make no mistake about it, it's not was his stance used to be, it's what it still is. This is all show, because win or lose it's a win-win for him and I'll tell you why......if he wins the election now, he'll go down in history as the hero to the gay community, for staring in the face of the masses and standing up for what he believed was right, and the people stood by him for his commitment to his beliefs that he admitted without fear of his political life. If he loses the election, they will forever say that he risked everything to stand up for what he believed was right, and only men of exceptional character have what it takes to do that. It's all a gimmick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    I'm also with Goaldie - its silly to think people can't change their minds on an idea. Its said that his family changed his mind - I can totally see that happening. Too much skepticism these days.
    You're right, but issues like this aren't the same as minor things like what type of music someone likes. It's not so simple to change your mind on such a volatile topic. Realistically, would anyone ever change your mind on your views of abortion, capital punishment or religion, just by talking to you about their beliefs? Not impossible, but damn close.

    You say we are too skeptical, which may be true, but the fact you can't even admit the timing is suspect as hell tells me he can do no wrong in your eyes, and everything he does is legitimate. Maybe you're not skeptical enough? If Bush had come in during the 4th quarter of his first term and done the same thing, you'd be saying the same thing we are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    Not always, he didn't even switch his stance to favoring civil unions until after the fact as well. He went from no, I don't agree with it, to civil unions should be enough, to hey, I support it fully.
    That's not how I remember it. Not saying I don't believe you, but I remember him always being pro civil unions.

    So you're saying he says what people want to hear to get elected? I know all politicians do it, and you won't get an argument from me, but it's nice to hear someone from the left admit that about Obama
    Of course, all these sharks do it. Every. Single. President. They've all done it. Some are a bit sneakier about it, that's all.

    Honestly though, you're saying he is genuine now, so that would mean he was ingenuine before. So if he was ingenuine before, doesn't that at least raise the possibility that he's ingenuine now?
    I'm saying maybe he was on the fence or against it back then, and was genuine then. I'm saying I believe its possible he had a change of heart after talking with his family. My parents & certainly my girlfriend have swayed my opinions on things (I don't have siblings or children, so that's my best example), so I don't see why his wife and kids would not be able to do the same. Sometimes children make the most obvious observations in such a way that they make more sense. Most people I know with children have experienced this on some level.

    Make no mistake about it, it's not was his stance used to be, it's what it still is. This is all show, because win or lose it's a win-win for him and I'll tell you why......if he wins the election now, he'll go down in history as the hero to the gay community, for staring in the face of the masses and standing up for what he believed was right, and the people stood by him for his commitment to his beliefs that he admitted without fear of his political life. If he loses the election, they will forever say that he risked everything to stand up for what he believed was right, and only men of exceptional character have what it takes to do that. It's all a gimmick.
    Its not all win-win - if this goads the religious right into action, and they get out the vote like the Dems did in 2008, Romney could see a huge boost. If Obama loses the election, I don't see how there's any win in that, sorry.

    You're right, but issues like this aren't the same as minor things like what type of music someone likes. It's not so simple to change your mind on such a volatile topic. Realistically, would anyone ever change your mind on your views of abortion, capital punishment or religion, just by talking to you about their beliefs? Not impossible, but damn close.

    You say we are too skeptical, which may be true, but the fact you can't even admit the timing is suspect as hell tells me he can do no wrong in your eyes, and everything he does is legitimate. Maybe you're not skeptical enough? If Bush had come in during the 4th quarter of his first term and done the same thing, you'd be saying the same thing we are.
    Stop putting words in my mouth - I never said the timing wasn't suspect. Politicians often withhold things like this until the opportune moment to take maximize the political capital; its part of how the game is played. However, it did happen the day after NC voters banned gay marriage in that state, so its not like he just popped up out of nowhere in campaign season to say this. The timing of this is obvious - I'm more concerned about the realness of the change of heart.

    And comparing this to abortion or capital punishment is kind of apples to oranges, IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    Not always, he didn't even switch his stance to favoring civil unions until after the fact as well. He went from no, I don't agree with it, to civil unions should be enough, to hey, I support it fully.

    So you're saying he says what people want to hear to get elected? I know all politicians do it, and you won't get an argument from me, but it's nice to hear someone from the left admit that about Obama

    Honestly though, you're saying he is genuine now, so that would mean he was ingenuine before. So if he was ingenuine before, doesn't that at least raise the possibility that he's ingenuine now?

    Make no mistake about it, it's not was his stance used to be, it's what it still is. This is all show, because win or lose it's a win-win for him and I'll tell you why......if he wins the election now, he'll go down in history as the hero to the gay community, for staring in the face of the masses and standing up for what he believed was right, and the people stood by him for his commitment to his beliefs that he admitted without fear of his political life. If he loses the election, they will forever say that he risked everything to stand up for what he believed was right, and only men of exceptional character have what it takes to do that. It's all a gimmick.

    You're right, but issues like this aren't the same as minor things like what type of music someone likes. It's not so simple to change your mind on such a volatile topic. Realistically, would anyone ever change your mind on your views of abortion, capital punishment or religion, just by talking to you about their beliefs? Not impossible, but damn close.

    You say we are too skeptical, which may be true, but the fact you can't even admit the timing is suspect as hell tells me he can do no wrong in your eyes, and everything he does is legitimate. Maybe you're not skeptical enough? If Bush had come in during the 4th quarter of his first term and done the same thing, you'd be saying the same thing we are.

    Ex..it's comical how folks spin this stuff!

    The Pres didn't change his mind. In it's kindest aspects, that idea is naivete....at it's worst...a complete joke. His hand was forced by Biden pure and simple.

    it's one example in a long list of dissembling actions on what this Pres really thinks and what his objectives truly are. it's one more example of how we are told one thing while a completely different agenda is in play. I can't belive we still sit here almost 4 years into it and have no idea what his collegiate grades were, what he wrote and thought in undergraduate and graduate years, how he got into and through the system. or his real relationships with all these folks who fall on the extreme of the political spectrum. so much simply does not pass the litmus test...it's breathtaking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    Ex..it's comical how folks spin this stuff!

    The Pres didn't change his mind. In it's kindest aspects, that idea is naivete....at it's worst...a complete joke. His hand was forced by Biden pure and simple.

    it's one example in a long list of dissembling actions on what this Pres really thinks and what his objectives truly are. it's one more example of how we are told one thing while a completely different agenda is in play. I can't belive we still sit here almost 4 years into it and have no idea what his collegiate grades were, what he wrote and thought in undergraduate and graduate years, how he got into and through the system. or his real relationships with all these folks who fall on the extreme of the political spectrum. so much simply does not pass the litmus test...it's breathtaking.
    Here you go, made this for you:

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    thank you Dr Cooper!! I appreciate the time and effort!
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    I think this was a bad move by Obama. As some of you state, it clearly looks like a purely political move. On top of that, it's coming on the heels of the 33rd (is it 33rd?) state amending it's constitution to ensure that gay marriage will forever remain illegal. I don't see how this does anything but lose Obama votes.

    That said, I disagree that an issue like this can't be a minor issue for someone. I think a lot of moderates such as myself really don't give a damn about gay marriage one way or the other. As with most of these types of issues, the extremists on both sides are so loud they drown everyone else out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    That's not how I remember it. Not saying I don't believe you, but I remember him always being pro civil unions.
    He was never in favor of it until he became President.

    During a televised debate before the 2008 presidential election, both candidates were asked for their position on same-sex marriage. John McCain responded that marriage was a state issue and that states should be free to decide whether to permit such marriages. Barack Obama responded that he was opposed to same-sex marriage because of his religious tradition. Since becoming president, however, Obama stated that his opinion was "evolving" and declared that his administration will no longer defend the constitutionality of the federal ban on recognition of same-sex marriages. Obama voted against an amendment to the U.S. Constitution banning same-sex marriage while he was a U.S. Senator. In 1996, when he was an Illinois State Senator, he stated publicly that he was opposed to the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which bans federal recognition of same-sex marriages and Civil Unions.
    He always says his position is evolving. Or constantly changing. That's an interesting and ingenuine platform to run on - vote for me, my platform changes daily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    I'm saying maybe he was on the fence or against it back then, and was genuine then. I'm saying I believe its possible he had a change of heart after talking with his family. My parents & certainly my girlfriend have swayed my opinions on things (I don't have siblings or children, so that's my best example), so I don't see why his wife and kids would not be able to do the same. Sometimes children make the most obvious observations in such a way that they make more sense. Most people I know with children have experienced this on some level.
    I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m saying it’s extremely unlikely.

    The fact the timing is what it is makes it seem a bit absurd. If he had said it years ago, or after the election, there would be a lot more validity to his statements. The refusal by the left to admit there is at least a chance it isn’t genuine, is infinitely more absurd than the rest of the country assuming it’s a gimmick due to the peculiar timing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Its not all win-win - if this goads the religious right into action, and they get out the vote like the Dems did in 2008, Romney could see a huge boost. If Obama loses the election, I don't see how there's any win in that, sorry.
    I already explained how there’s a win in that. Because if he loses, it would all be put on this one decision, and he will look like a martyr to the left and to gays. His legacy will go from being a President who took a bad situation and made it worse, to a man beloved by people who believe this change of heart.

    Everybody has seen that for the last 4 years, Barack Obama comes across as caring more about his image and the perception of him than anything. He has campaigned pretty much his entire term, because he loves the spotlight. He thinks he’s a rock star, and this will give him infinite attention if he loses. Again, win or lose, he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Stop putting words in my mouth - I never said the timing wasn't suspect. Politicians often withhold things like this until the opportune moment to take maximize the political capital; its part of how the game is played. However, it did happen the day after NC voters banned gay marriage in that state, so its not like he just popped up out of nowhere in campaign season to say this. The timing of this is obvious - I'm more concerned about the realness of the change of heart.

    And comparing this to abortion or capital punishment is kind of apples to oranges, IMO.
    I didn’t put words in your mouth. I didn’t say that you emphatically stated the timing wasn’t suspect, so quit putting words in my mouth. But you did make this sarcastic statement…….

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Obama can't do anything without it being a 'gimmick.' Can't this just be a honest change of heart on a pertinent topic? I mean, god forbid a sitting president changes his stance on something. That's NEVER happened!
    Which certainly comes across like you don’t think it’s a gimmick, which would imply the timing is not suspect.

    For the record, I never compared abortion or capital punishment to gay marriage, you completely twisted my words. I only mentioned abortion as an example of a topic that people know their position on pretty intently, just like gay marriage. Comparing the magnitude of topics is not the same thing as comparing the topics themselves
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    He was never in favor of it until he became President.

    He always says his position is evolving. Or constantly changing. That's an interesting and ingenuine platform to run on - vote for me, my platform changes daily.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he was against DOMA in 1996, wouldn't that signify he wasn't 100% against same-sex marriages? From your quoted text:

    "In 1996, when he was an Illinois State Senator, he stated publicly that he was opposed to the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which bans federal recognition of same-sex marriages and Civil Unions."

    I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m saying it’s extremely unlikely.
    Look no further than Big Mike - he used to be opposed, but now he supports same-sex marriages. Its nowhere near as polarizing as the other topics you put forth, in my opinion. The major reason being nobody is dying because of gay marriage. Human life is not a factor, except opponents wanting to be involved in other people's lives.

    The fact the timing is what it is makes it seem a bit absurd. If he had said it years ago, or after the election, there would be a lot more validity to his statements. The refusal by the left to admit there is at least a chance it isn’t genuine, is infinitely more absurd than the rest of the country assuming it’s a gimmick due to the peculiar timing.

    I already explained how there’s a win in that. Because if he loses, it would all be put on this one decision, and he will look like a martyr to the left and to gays. His legacy will go from being a President who took a bad situation and made it worse, to a man beloved by people who believe this change of heart.

    Everybody has seen that for the last 4 years, Barack Obama comes across as caring more about his image and the perception of him than anything. He has campaigned pretty much his entire term, because he loves the spotlight. He thinks he’s a rock star, and this will give him infinite attention if he loses. Again, win or lose, he wins.

    I didn’t put words in your mouth. I didn’t say that you emphatically stated the timing wasn’t suspect, so quit putting words in my mouth. But you did make this sarcastic statement…….

    Which certainly comes across like you don’t think it’s a gimmick, which would imply the timing is not suspect.
    I was suggesting it might not be a gimmick. Truthfully, I don't know - but I'm not going to instantly say its a gimmick just because of the timing.

    For the record, I never compared abortion or capital punishment to gay marriage, you completely twisted my words. I only mentioned abortion as an example of a topic that people know their position on pretty intently, just like gay marriage. Comparing the magnitude of topics is not the same thing as comparing the topics themselves
    Fine, changing your opinion on abortion or capital punishment verse changing your opinion on gay marriage is like comparing apples to oranges. Different ball parks.
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