A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
'Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.' - Groucho Marx

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  1. #1
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    Army

    Default Current Student Loan Interest Rates Battle

    I don't know how many of you are directly affected by this, but the rhetoric has already gotten so completely out of control it's making me sick.

    For those who haven't heard, the Republicans voted down a bill that would extend reduced interest rates on federal student loans to cover new loans taken after July 1st.

    Their reasoning was simple.......rather than cover the losses that the government would have to face by paying the difference out of the health care fund that's very likely to be killed for its unconstitutionality by the SCOTUS next month, the Democrats did like Democrats do, and suggested robbing the money from SS and Medicare. Big surprise, that's always what they suggest.

    Only the problem now, is this isn't how the story is being spread. Because we're in an election year, there has already been a viral campaign fired up on the internet, most prevalent so far on facebook, where Democrats are posting a picture of Obama preaching about his views on education for the future of our country. The problem isn't that, it's the article attached to it. The headline states "Republicans aim to double student loan interest rates by effectively blocking bill."

    Tell me, why are blatant lies like this illegal? Oddly enough, not once in the article does it mention any hint of the truth. It paints the GOP as these devils that want to take more money out of the pockets of poor and middle class Americans. It completely fails to mention that the GOP wants the lower rates too, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO ROB FROM THE POOR AND MIDDLE CLASS TO DO IT!

    Sadly, most of the people reposting and liking this story relentlessly, are too stupid to want to know the truth it seems. So there they go, touting the GOP as student/middle class/poor haters, when it is the policy submitted and effectively stopped today that was put forth by the Democrats, that would have had a far more substantial negative impact. And people wonder why our country is getting so stupid? It's because idiots like these people keep spreading the propaganda and riling up the idiots en masse. Does nobody look into anything anymore? I get the feeling that if I got on tv and claimed to be a Liberal, I could just make up some off the wall ****, and it would spread like a wildfire of truth among the Liberal base.
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    Florida Atlantic

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    The same can be said about the Republican base though - people believe what they want to believe. It has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. See: Obama's birth certificate controversy.

    EDIT: Please don't take this as agreeing or disagreeing with the student loan interest thing; simply pointing out your last few sentences about Liberals were kind of unfair.
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  3. #3
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    I see what you're saying, but there's a big difference in how the GOP and Democrats enrage their bases.

    It's one thing to lie to your base, but to completely fabricate an entire story and carry it on all the news networks online and on tv shows how bad things have gotten. And the BC thing is a terrible example, only a small percentage of wing nuts were in on that, and no credible news sources were carrying it as a legit story and saying absolutely it was fake. They were asking if it was, huge difference.

    The GOP tells their base what they want to hear, but they rarely, if ever, go on a campaign of advertisements and news articles that were completely fabricated, in the hopes that none of their supporters will ever go to an outside source and discover the truth.

    The difference that I've noticed when I talk to Liberals, is for the most part you cannot convince them a lie is a lie, no matter how much proof you show them. I know that you know the story I described is BS. I know you're smart enough to know the GOP didn't vote to double interest rates. But everyone I argued with yesterday about it, I even showed them the parts they needed to read to show them why the story was BS, and they just responded by saying they believe MSNBC/CNN/Etc. over me. Wtf? It wasn't a matter of believing me, I didn't write the facts, they're just the facts. It's almost like people are starting to become willfully ignorant.
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    James Madison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    I see what you're saying, but there's a big difference in how the GOP and Democrats enrage their bases.

    It's one thing to lie to your base, but to completely fabricate an entire story and carry it on all the news networks online and on tv shows how bad things have gotten. And the BC thing is a terrible example, only a small percentage of wing nuts were in on that, and no credible news sources were carrying it as a legit story and saying absolutely it was fake. They were asking if it was, huge difference.

    The GOP tells their base what they want to hear, but they rarely, if ever, go on a campaign of advertisements and news articles that were completely fabricated, in the hopes that none of their supporters will ever go to an outside source and discover the truth.
    I wasn't going to get involved in this thread (or any other really in which there is no chance of any rational discussion), but the above quoted text literally had tears coming out of my eyes I was laughing so hard. Thanks, Ex. Next time however, before you post something so sarcastic, I would hope you put a smiley face in there somewhere.

    And if you were serious? Check out FOX News sometime.

    Both sides do it, dude. And both sides do it pretty equally.
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    Florida Atlantic

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    Its the same line of thinking the Republicans had when they were saying Obama was going to "raise taxes" by letting the Bush tax cuts expire. Disingenuous to say the least!

    I'm just sick of the BS - both sides use pretty much the same tactics, however the bases of either side only see red when the other side does it, and think its perfectly fine when they do it. Its the base hypocritical nature of the political system today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    I wasn't going to get involved in this thread (or any other really in which there is no chance of any rational discussion), but the above quoted text literally had tears coming out of my eyes I was laughing so hard. Thanks, Ex. Next time however, before you post something so sarcastic, I would hope you put a smiley face in there somewhere.

    And if you were serious? Check out FOX News sometime.

    Both sides do it, dude. And both sides do it pretty equally.
    Typical. That's all I will say. People like you are part of the problem I was referring to. By people like you, I don't mean you personally. I mean people that do what you just did, and rather than give an example or contribute, you make a snarky comment and throw in a Fox News reference for good measure. But that whole paragraph you posted didn't do anything but validate what I said. So I guess......thanks?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Its the same line of thinking the Republicans had when they were saying Obama was going to "raise taxes" by letting the Bush tax cuts expire. Disingenuous to say the least!
    You'd be hard pressed to find any source that ever said that. Don't get me wrong, they definitely implied that, but I don't recall anyone flat out saying Obama was going to raise taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    I'm just sick of the BS - both sides use pretty much the same tactics, however the bases of either side only see red when the other side does it, and think its perfectly fine when they do it. Its the base hypocritical nature of the political system today.
    So true, and Harry Reid is a perfect example of this. He constantly strikes down anything the House approves if it was originally proposed by the GOP, just because his guys didn't write it. Then the base falls in line and heel steps to the same cadence.
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    James Madison

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    My apologies, Ex. My problem with your posts in general is below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    Sadly, most of the people reposting and liking this story relentlessly, are too stupid to want to know the truth it seems. So there they go, touting the GOP as student/middle class/poor haters, when it is the policy submitted and effectively stopped today that was put forth by the Democrats, that would have had a far more substantial negative impact. And people wonder why our country is getting so stupid? It's because idiots like these people keep spreading the propaganda and riling up the idiots en masse. Does nobody look into anything anymore? I get the feeling that if I got on tv and claimed to be a Liberal, I could just make up some off the wall ****, and it would spread like a wildfire of truth among the Liberal base.
    When you start a thread that essentially calls Liberals stupid, what exactly are you expecting? It can't be rational discourse, can it? At that point, youhave suceeded only in taking attention away from your very valid argument about Student Loan Rates, and instead made anyone who has any slightly left leanings incredibly defensive. You've undermined your own thread, and pointlessly so, I might add.

    My argument, and Lanky's I assume, is that this Student Loan thing is detestable, and I understand your anger about it. However, I think both of us argue that your contention (and correct me if I am wrong) that only the liberal media does it is laughable at best. FOX News has a long a storied history of inaccuracies, to put it nicely - others might say blatant lies - that are easily researched online. If you really want links, I will provide them when I get back home this afternoon.

    And certainly, I am sure we can find thousands of examples of MSNBC and CNN doing the same, no doubt. Again, you started the discussion by making anyone who feels slightly liberal defensive, the end result of what you got was the logical end.
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    Florida Atlantic

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    Yep, very well summed up Goaldie. Insulting one side or the other in an argument (I'm guilty of it as well) never leads to rational discourse.
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    James Madison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    You'd be hard pressed to find any source that ever said that. Don't get me wrong, they definitely implied that, but I don't recall anyone flat out saying Obama was going to raise taxes.
    And by the by, before I walk out the door, this took approximately 30 seconds to google:

    http://mediamatters.org/research/201002010055

    And in print:

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...x-cuts-affect/
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  11. #11
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    Army

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    When you start a thread that essentially calls Liberals stupid, what exactly are you expecting? It can't be rational discourse, can it? At that point, youhave suceeded only in taking attention away from your very valid argument about Student Loan Rates, and instead made anyone who has any slightly left leanings incredibly defensive. You've undermined your own thread, and pointlessly so, I might add.
    I apologize, as that was not my intent. Although looking back at it, I can understand why someone might take it that way. But in fairness, I clearly stated that Liberals who believe the story (which is completely fabricated and full of lies) are stupid. So unless you were to believe the story instead of the truth, it should not offend you. You're a smart guy, so I know you don't buy in to the propaganda on this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    My argument, and Lanky's I assume, is that this Student Loan thing is detestable, and I understand your anger about it. However, I think both of us argue that your contention (and correct me if I am wrong) that only the liberal media does it is laughable at best.
    I never meant to make it seem like I only believe the left does it. That's why I hate both parties with a passion, because they are both putrid in so many ways. The point I was trying to make, was that while the right wing media implies a lot, the left wing media flat out says it. There is a very substantial difference. Not only that, but almost every single Liberal I know, which oddly is what most of my friends are, posts and reposts these things as fact. Then when I point them to the truth, they admittedly refuse to even consider looking at the evidence. They take every single thing the left puts out as gold. The other problem with that, is they constantly want to jump on Fox for their inaccuracies, but my wife is a Fox addict, so I know for a fact from always seeing it on, that they correct themselves every single time they have an inaccuracy, but the Liberals don't want to hear that either, as evidenced by you posting a graphic that was corrected not even 10 minutes after it was originally posted. To top it all off, only the fringe right buys the BS. Now I either know a whole lot of fringe left people, or most of the left really does buy into the BS reported on blogs and other sources, because they constantly spew the mistruths as fact and refuse to correct it even in the face of damning evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    FOX News has a long a storied history of inaccuracies, to put it nicely - others might say blatant lies - that are easily researched online. If you really want links, I will provide them when I get back home this afternoon.
    See above, they correct them all. Anyone that watches Fox news can verify that. If you don't watch, and you only rely on the radicals that do nothing with their time but wait to catch a Fox error (there are entire websites solely dedicated to it), then post it online immediately and don't acknowledge Fox's retraction minutes later, I can see why you would think the things you do. Hell, I would too. I don't watch MSNBC. Ever. But if I was constantly seeing their screwups posted online on a regular basis, whether they corrected them or not, I would inaccurately and unfairly assume they were a network full of screwups the same way you view Fox. Unless you watch on a regular basis, you simply do not know, and you cannot rely on the internet to tell you the truth when it comes to things like that which are solely intended to inflame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    And certainly, I am sure we can find thousands of examples of MSNBC and CNN doing the same, no doubt. Again, you started the discussion by making anyone who feels slightly liberal defensive, the end result of what you got was the logical end.
    Again, I apologize for that, and I should have more clearly stated that the left who believes all the propaganda is stupid, because they are. Just like the right that believes in the right wing propaganda is stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    And by the by, before I walk out the door, this took approximately 30 seconds to google:

    http://mediamatters.org/research/201002010055

    And in print:

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...x-cuts-affect/
    Ahem, see above. The retraction was done almost immediately. The wording changed, but the basic message was the same. They stated that Obama's new budget would allow for the Bush tax cuts to expire, effectively allowing taxes to increase to pre Bush tax cut levels. Is that not an increase? There is no way it could have been worded that would have made the left not jump on it.

    The article I discussed in my OP was completely different. It stated that the GOP voted to double interest rates, which simply did not happen. Before the vote, they clearly stated that they could not support a bill that would be funded through Medicare and Social Security cuts, and that they would rather come to a compromise that works for both sides, and that they wanted to get it done BEFORE the interest rates went back up. They are clearly in the same boat as the Democrats as far as wanting to keep the rates low, but the left, since it's an election year, decided it would be good to go after the student vote through dirty taxes by putting out a false story claiming the Republicans want to double the interest rates. When in reality, you and I both know that couldn't be farther from the truth.
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  12. #12

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    George Mason

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    The bottom line is that the media has become nothing more than a mouth piece for politicians. Each outlet picks and chooses which side they want to represent. Some of it has to do with who's done what for higher ups in the outlet's organization.

    MSNBC by and large supports the democrats while FoxNews by and large supports the Republicans. Both claim to be looking out for us (LOL!), both claim to tell the truth, but everyone knows both are completely one sided and biased. It's so ridiculous that a comedy show like The Daily Show is incredibly successful and majority of the format these days is just showing how ridiculous the two stations have become.

    Then we have CNN - it's a mouth piece for cat videos on the internet.

    Our media has become an industry about ratings, instead of being what it used to be - a visual form of getting your news, a compliment to your daily newspaper.

    So you can pick and choose what you want to complain about.
    If you're a democrat you're complaining about how FoxNews and staff has made the killing of Obama some sort of political controversy because he took credit for it. Everyone knows the Republicans are being absurdly ridiculous, President Obama has (on multiple occasions) given credit to where it is due.
    If you're a republican you're complaining about what's mentioned in the OP.

    It's never ending battle of dumb. It is incredibly disappointing that this is what our news has turned into. It'd be nice if there was a news station that was actually looking out for us.
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  13. #13
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    You're right t.

    Anyone else find it ironic and sad that other sources of cable news are the worst thing to happen to cable news? If memory serves me correctly, when CNN was the only game in town, they were pretty reliable and accurate. Competition destroyed them.

    Even if a station did come around that claimed to be truly for us, one side or the other would dismiss it as one sided. Fox has by far the most balanced blend of talking heads (both sides well represented) but they still lean right more than they stay in the middle.

    Here's the difference between the big 3 cable news networks....

    1. Fox News - We're going to tell you we're fair and balanced. We're even going to load up our ranks with Liberals to make that balance clear and evident. But we are still going to push the Conservative agenda and argue against the left. All Liberal anchors that want their own show will be paired with a much smarter Conservative sidekick to make them look stupid, or they will be on a show all by themselves where we require them to report on right leaning stories so people don't immediately realize they are Liberals. (I'm looking at you Megyn Kelly)

    2. MSNBC - We will rant and rave the extremist left message and dedicate more time to taking shots at Fox News than actually doing any reporting of our own. All of our information will be acquired through second and third hand means, and we will report whatever we can come up with, because seriously, who watches us anyway? (Fox has reruns at 2 and 3 am that consistently rank higher than MSNBC's ENTIRE prime time lineup combined)

    3. CNN - We've been out of the game for years. People finally caught on that Larry King was a puppet after dying 10 years ago, so we had to replace him and play videos of cats from the internet in hopes we didn't scare the children. (They do it for the children)

    The worst part is, CBS and ABC were both very reliable when I was young, but then Bush and Obama made their true colors come out. Dan Rather ruined CBS forever for me, and ABC blatantly admitting to being in Obama's pocket made me sick, because it skews every word they say.

    We need a news source that is a co-op between the left and the right, that simply delivers the news and lets the viewers decide. I don't want my news guys making up my mind for me. Shep Smith and Brit Hume are about the only ones left on Fox who stick to that. They honestly just report the news. Not many left like that anymore. I don't watch enough of the other stations anymore to know who they have decent. Everyone on ABC sucks. NBC has always sucked, so they don't matter. CBS probably has a few good ones, although Dan Rather turned me off forever to them. MSNBC speaks for itself. The fact they can't even get the Liberals to watch them speaks volumes. Then CNN, well I go on the internet to watch internet videos, and Wolf Blitzer sold out.
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  14. #14

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    George Mason

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    Extreme, i think your characterization of FoxNews is a bit biased
    It's not really any better than MSNBC.

    I used to think it was... but once Obama was elected their true colors came out (to steal your phrasing ). It was really what turned me against FoxNews and conservatives as a whole (I did not vote for obama in 2008).
    It was then I saw FoxNews for what they were - partisan hacks that were no better than the people they criticized at MSNBC.
    I will agree that Shepard smith does a pretty good job of just reporting the news - britt hume? i don't think so.

    Bill Oreily is the only other one aside from Shepard Smith who does a pretty good job of keeping his opinions separated from facts. Yes, his show is an op ed show (where as Shep's is supposed to be straight news), and yes his opinions are VERY conservative (I actually agree with him on quite a few things), but he's capable of being fair when he needs to. He's even had some 'Yeah, i'm conservative but you are actually crazy' moments when discussing issues with other members of FoxNews.

    CNN's sunday morning lineup (from lik 8am - 1pm) is about the best you can get when it comes to fair, honest reporting. I strongly suggest anyone who's genuinely interested in honest reporting to check it out. I say this as someone who think's CNN's a joke otherwise. I was quite surprised with their sunday morning stuff.

    But I do agree... if someone were to launch a new one, they'd be bastardized by the others and run out of town (to be expected from monopolies...).

    The really sad part is in what you highlighted at the end - it's spreading to 'local' news stations
    It's all about ratings.

    The reason FoxNews crushes everyone in the ratings is because republicans are more likely to watch straight news shows (ie: 24/7 cable news) than any other demographic. Same with radio - conservative/republican radio hosts do significantly better because their target audience actually listens to them... Democrats have a really hard time because their audience has better things to do than listen to Christ Mathews spout garbage every evening.

    The ratings are direct reflection of the tendencies of their target demographic to spend time watching/listening. The ratings have zero to do with the actual accuracy or honesty in the reporting, despite what FoxNews tries to have you think.

    As someone who is right of center I despise FoxNews and their targeting and subtle (though not too subtle) racial comments of President Obama. It's sickening to me the way they've treated someone who is our President. Sean Hanity embodies everything I hated about MSNBC when Bush was in office.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    Extreme, i think your characterization of FoxNews is a bit biased
    It's not really any better than MSNBC.

    Bill Oreily is the only other one aside from Shepard Smith who does a pretty good job of keeping his opinions separated from facts.
    Wait, you call my view of Fox, who I admittedly hate, biased....then you pretend Bill O'Reilly keeps his opinions out of it? His entire show is his skewed opinion. THe only thing about Bill O'Reilly that is more screwed up than the fact he presents opinion as fact, is the fact he honestly thinks of himself as one of the folks, as he puts it. O'Reilly is like a watered down Olbermann.

    I agree he can do like Jon Stewart and call bull**** when he sees it, but he is still a hack. Then again, what do you expect from a guy who got his start in tabloids?

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    CNN's sunday morning lineup (from lik 8am - 1pm) is about the best you can get when it comes to fair, honest reporting. I strongly suggest anyone who's genuinely interested in honest reporting to check it out. I say this as someone who think's CNN's a joke otherwise. I was quite surprised with their sunday morning stuff.
    I'll give it a go. If it's legit, it'll be like watching them 20 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    The reason FoxNews crushes everyone in the ratings is because republicans are more likely to watch straight news shows (ie: 24/7 cable news) than any other demographic. Same with radio - conservative/republican radio hosts do significantly better because their target audience actually listens to them... Democrats have a really hard time because their audience has better things to do than listen to Christ Mathews spout garbage every evening.
    This actually isn't true. Neilsen reports have shown consistently that a massive chunk of Fox viewers are actually left leaning. To me it seems like they'd almost rather nitpick and try to find fault with the opposition than actually listen to their own guys.

    Not only that, but love em or hate em, there have been quite a bit of major stories that only Fox covered. Even though they're guilty of skewing like the rest of them, they at least take the time to make you aware of everything, rather than harping on one story for a month. Then again, I don't know if the Liberals think Acorn and their criminal activity, Van Jones, etc. were newsworthy since it made their guys look so bad. Fox breaks a lot of stories that CNN and MSNBC completely ignore and sweep under the rug.

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    The ratings are direct reflection of the tendencies of their target demographic to spend time watching/listening. The ratings have zero to do with the actual accuracy or honesty in the reporting, despite what FoxNews tries to have you think.
    Partially true, see above. But honestly, CNN runs commercials on Fox. What does that say for them?

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    As someone who is right of center I despise FoxNews and their targeting and subtle (though not too subtle) racial comments of President Obama. It's sickening to me the way they've treated someone who is our President. Sean Hanity embodies everything I hated about MSNBC when Bush was in office.
    They did the same thing to Herman Cain, and he was on their side. They definitely don't take shots at Obama just for being on the left, it really does have racial undertones. Look at all the white faces on the network too. And when they do bring black reporters, bloggers, etc. on to talk, I swear it seems like they go out of their way to find the craziest ones possible, like they try to subliminally make you think they're all fools. It's been a slimy tactic of theirs for years.

    And my characterization of Fox and MSNBC are accurate. MSNBC is the guy on the soap box ranting about the end of the world, spewing crazy **** just to scare you or make you mad. Fox News is the guy in the crowd handing you Watchtower flyers and telling you it'll all be ok

    They're both crazy, just completely different levels of crazy.
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  16. #16

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    Florida Atlantic

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    You know, I think Goaldie nailed the problem with this forum in general. People insult the "other side" without debating the issues (with a few exceptions of course). I'm just as guilty as anyone; but maybe as a whole we can decide to stick to simply the issues, instead of "right vs. left." This would be a good idea for everyone everywhere, but maybe we can start with this message board.

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    In regards to extreme's post...
    Alright, I'll agree to that.

    I do think you misunderstood my views on Orielly. He definitely is opinionated, and his show is an op ed piece, but he does a pretty good job of separating his opinion from fact. Meaning he goes out of his way to make sure it's clear when something is his opinion, and when something is fact - same as Jon Stewart (which is why I like both of them, and probably why they like each other)
    There are very few moments (at least back when I watched him on a regular basis) where i felt like orielly was letting his ideology overshadow the facts.

    I feel like the above distinction for him is important because a lot of shows try to represent their opinions as though they are facts (see sean hanity).


    And for you Lanky
    I find that the only people willing to abandon the right vs left thing are the people who have realized both sides are worthless
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    You know, I think Goaldie nailed the problem with this forum in general. People insult the "other side" without debating the issues (with a few exceptions of course). I'm just as guilty as anyone; but maybe as a whole we can decide to stick to simply the issues, instead of "right vs. left." This would be a good idea for everyone everywhere, but maybe we can start with this message board.

    You aren't gonna start getting all handsy and offering hugs now are you?

    I agree with your assessment for the most part, but unfortunately in this situation, left vs. right was what I was addressing in my OP. This whole problem arose because of left vs. right, so to ignore that fact would be ignoring the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    In regards to extreme's post...
    Alright, I'll agree to that.

    I do think you misunderstood my views on Orielly. He definitely is opinionated, and his show is an op ed piece, but he does a pretty good job of separating his opinion from fact. Meaning he goes out of his way to make sure it's clear when something is his opinion, and when something is fact - same as Jon Stewart (which is why I like both of them, and probably why they like each other)
    There are very few moments (at least back when I watched him on a regular basis) where i felt like orielly was letting his ideology overshadow the facts.
    You're right for the most part on how he was. I stopped watching O'Reilly about 2 years ago though, because he had begun to believe himself too much, and he really did start spouting out his opinion without clarifying like he did in the past.

    He started to blend fact and opinion too closely about 4 years ago, but then he just blurred it to the point you couldn't decipher anymore, so I quit watching. As for Jon Stewart, anyone who doesn't like him doesn't know funny. The fact he's one of the most genuinely intelligent people alive makes you really think about some of the things he brings up too, because even though it's a comedy show, he does raise some very interesting questions from time to time that get you thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    I feel like the above distinction for him is important because a lot of shows try to represent their opinions as though they are facts (see sean hanity).
    Sean Hannity is a complete tool. I've hated him from day 1. He's so far right he makes Rush Limbaugh look like a Democrat.


    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    And for you Lanky
    I find that the only people willing to abandon the right vs left thing are the people who have realized both sides are worthless
    I came to this realization about 6 years ago. I try to spread the message, but people don't want to hear about real change, they'd generally rather buy in to the propaganda, and it's unfortunate (not talking about you Lanky, I mean in general). If you tell Liberals that the left sucks, you get labeled a right wing hack. If you call the GOP garbage, you have the right calling you a Liberal douche bag. It's a battle you can never win, unfortunately.

    Sadly, until people realize that both sides are wrong, both sides are liars, and both sides are doing what is in their best interest, with NO CONCERN for the people, things will never improve.

    The GOP claims to be the party of the people, but they want to eliminate welfare, food stamps, etc. when there are people who genuinely need the help. The Democrats claim to be the party of the people, but their answer to everything is raise taxes, and cut Social Security and Medicare. The people on both sides don't seem to get that no matter which approach is taken, it's to keep the people down, and nothing else. Both sides want total control of us. The worst part is, we as the people, have all the power in the world to change everything. But we're all too busy bitching about who's right and who's wrong, that no progress is made. That's EXACTLY what Washington wants. Keep em fighting and confused while we **** them and rob them blind.

    It's all a setup, and until we all pull our heads out of our asses and realize that the fights in Washington are all intentionally used as a distraction to make us hate each other, we will continue to spiral out of control.
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    all....putting aside the matter of whether your preferred views are worth a hearing...you're making a fundamental assumption: that the goal is compromise. there comes a time when one draws a line in the sand and hews to fundamental tenets. that is where the fault lines fall. abstracting this away as Left or Right extremism - especially these days where so much is at stake - is the worst sort of escapism. it has been clear from day 1 that all of you are as committed to your points-of-view, very often quite emotionally, as any of the rest of us. to deny that or to rationalize the resistance away as the foibles of specific individuals (i.e., those who disagree with you) or the acts of external agencies (i.e., others cannot think independently) is...perhaps....a bit of arrogance that may reqiure some personal introspection of its own.

    adieu!
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    compromise is a fundamental part of having a working society that consists of 350 million people spread across a body of land the size of the united states.

    it doesn't surprise me that you fail to see the same goal as the rest of us. you're as entrenched in the 'us vs them' war as one can possibly be.

    i firmly believe the best compromise we could make is a movement back to growing states rights and shrinking the role of the federal government. that way people can move to states that share the views they want. instead of what we have now which is a constant us vs them battle where everyone wants to impose their morals onto everyone else. the power swings from side the side, each side getting their 'day in the sun' to alter policies so their views can be imposed on the rest of us, meanwhile real progress is stumped.

    it's a depressing to see that you actively and knowingly root for that, fansince62.
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