A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
'Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.' - Groucho Marx

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    Default "Green" Wind Farms Contributing To Global Warming (I Love Irony)

    http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/...searchers-say/

    So, can we start drilling now, or do the experts still know what's best?
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    George Mason

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    Ok, so the mixing of air warms the air.

    thats quite a bit different than warming being caused by pollution that creates a green house effect trapping warm temperatures in.
    it's also quite a bit different than having pollution that damages our ozone.

    also it's a very local and easily reversible/fixable issue.

    in short, it's a terrible claim that it's contributing to 'global warming', and any notion of irony is utterly ignorant of science at best.

    sorry
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    Ok, so the mixing of air warms the air.

    thats quite a bit different than warming being caused by pollution that creates a green house effect trapping warm temperatures in.
    it's also quite a bit different than having pollution that damages our ozone.

    also it's a very local and easily reversible/fixable issue.

    in short, it's a terrible claim that it's contributing to 'global warming', and any notion of irony is utterly ignorant of science at best.

    sorry
    I'm just posting the story, don't shoot the messenger.

    .....but for the record, the heating of the air in the area makes it easier for pollutants to bind and rise, making it indirectly help create pollution that may not normally have been created and lifted into the atmosphere

    And how is it an easy fix? Just curious. Last I heard, you can't make a spinning fan that doesn't spin, but I could be wrong. Maybe they'll put some massive Dyson fans up

    On a side note, but somewhat related, did anyone notice how there were reports about thousands upon thousands of birds being killed by these things on a regular basis, but PETA and all the other nuts are staying quiet on the issue? But let a non green industry be responsible for the death of a larvae that a newt eats, and the whole operation gets shut down

    And also for the record, warming is warming, the source makes no difference if the end result is the same.
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    George Mason

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    well i was just posting in general.

    but, the article you linked says they're looking at redesigns of the blades that should help curb the problem.
    another fix is to strategically locate and use the farms to not affect farmers in the area. the impact is local, not all the way around the world. temperature in japan is not rising because of wind farms in texas... it's fixable, and they can work around it. it may require some creative solutions, but it's not nearly the same, or as complicated, as pollutants being thousands of miles up in the air (as the title suggests)

    And your 'warming is warming' statement is nonsense. the local impact of air temperature caused by these things is not in any way, shape, or form similar to the global, long term impact of pollution on our climate. to suggest otherwise is just completely ignorant of science
    But... if we were to discuss things that were on equal footing, i would agree with you. For example, I believe the electric cars a joke because instead of using gasoline from the pump, they're using electricity from (for most places) coal... it's not any better for the environment and has significantly less use/performance.

    Also i find the bird deaths tragic, but the irony in PETA not giving a **** hilarious. Proves the true motivations of people when things like that happen.


    For what it's worth I'm not convinced that the earth getting warmer has solely been caused by humans. I think the earth goes in cycles. I think we've contributed to it with what science has shown pollutants to do, and I think in general pollution is awful and we should be trying to reduce/clean/fight it as much as we can regardless of how much it impacts 'global climate change'.
    Just wanted to get that out there. I'm not some global warming zealot. I just think that article is dumb and 100% partisan hackery.

    edit: extreme i hope you understand that my comments are more to the ignorance of foxnews and their reporters - or at least the story as they're trying to spin it - and not you. it's kind of hard to keep that stuff straight on the internet in plain text
    Last edited by tshile; 05-02-12 at 04:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    the article you linked says they're looking at redesigns of the blades that should help curb the problem.
    I know, your statement just sounded like you were saying they could eliminate it completely. Curbing is just toning down. It would still be a problem, just a slower and smaller problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    the impact is local, not all the way around the world. temperature in japan is not rising because of wind farms in texas.
    Not yet. But think about how this would play out if the green backers and certain politicians had their way. These things would be all over the place, and then it would be a worldwide problem. That's the direction they want to push wind farms, so unless they find a way to eliminate the problem, this will only get worse as more farms pop up.

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    And your 'warming is warming' statement is nonsense. the local impact of air temperature caused by these things is not in any way, shape, or form similar to the global, long term impact of pollution on our climate. to suggest otherwise is just completely ignorant of science
    See above. Whether we are pumping pollutants into the air that are causing the Earth to hold heat, or we are pumping out our own heat, warming is warming. Cows farting releases massive quantities of methane. There are theories that say that could be one of the number one causes. It causes greenhouse gas levels to rise, and it contributes to the problem, but you're essentially saying that doesn't count, because it's not a man made/industry based contributor. Volcanoes are man made as well. To suggest that man is the main cause of global warming is beyond completely ignorant of science There is plenty of proof on that. We are the 1%.

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    But... if we were to discuss things that were on equal footing, i would agree with you. For example, I believe the electric cars a joke because instead of using gasoline from the pump, they're using electricity from (for most places) coal... it's not any better for the environment and has significantly less use/performance.

    Also i find the bird deaths tragic, but the irony in PETA not giving a **** hilarious. Proves the true motivations of people when things like that happen.
    Agree. With all of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    For what it's worth I'm not convinced that the earth getting warmer has solely been caused by humans. I think the earth goes in cycles. I think we've contributed to it with what science has shown pollutants to do, and I think in general pollution is awful and we should be trying to reduce/clean/fight it as much as we can regardless of how much it impacts 'global climate change'.

    Just wanted to get that out there. I'm not some global warming zealot. I just think that article is dumb and 100% partisan hackery.
    For what it's worth, I agree with you on most of your points. Where we do differ, is I honestly think in the grand scheme of things, humans are a non factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    edit: extreme i hope you understand that my comments are more to the ignorance of foxnews and their reporters - or at least the story as they're trying to spin it - and not you. it's kind of hard to keep that stuff straight on the internet in plain text
    I understand, I wasn't taking offense to it at all

    I never have been one to attack a source though, and this is not a Fox story, it's just the link I saw first, so I used it. I post from sources on both sides, but I don't recall ever posting a story that hadn't been reported by multiple sources, just to avoid the partisan BS that happens when someone goes one way.
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    George Mason

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    For what it's worth, I agree with you on most of your points. Where we do differ, is I honestly think in the grand scheme of things, humans are a non factor.
    Yeah i'm in the boat of: we do impact it, but not nearly as much as the alarmists want us to believe. In either case we should make a real effort to stop polluting.

    Whats the old saying? don't **** where you eat? well we've been ****ting where we eat since the industrial revolution and it's time we realize how terrible it is for us - climate change aside, we're ruining rivers, food supplies, etc all because we have decided as society we don't give a crap about pollution for some reason.

    These wind farms are producing a side effect that's manageable, and one thats born out of a desire to fix a much larger problem. To write them off simply because of this is such a terrible sign to me. The general public still doesn't take pollution and it's impacts seriously. To the point where we have created this electric car that literally just shifts the source of the pollution... and it's working. People are buying these things....

    It all just makes me sad. Instead of trying to collective solve a problem (something we're good at as a species) we're spending all of our time trying to knock the 'other' side down. Articles like this epitomize it, and 'news' sources like FoxNews make billions a year doing it. They strive for partisan hackery in everything they do. The real sad part is they're clearly not alone. Both sides have multiple mouthpieces in many different mediums.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    Yeah i'm in the boat of: we do impact it, but not nearly as much as the alarmists want us to believe. In either case we should make a real effort to stop polluting.

    Whats the old saying? don't **** where you eat? well we've been ****ting where we eat since the industrial revolution and it's time we realize how terrible it is for us - climate change aside, we're ruining rivers, food supplies, etc all because we have decided as society we don't give a crap about pollution for some reason.

    These wind farms are producing a side effect that's manageable, and one thats born out of a desire to fix a much larger problem. To write them off simply because of this is such a terrible sign to me. The general public still doesn't take pollution and it's impacts seriously. To the point where we have created this electric car that literally just shifts the source of the pollution... and it's working. People are buying these things....

    It all just makes me sad. Instead of trying to collective solve a problem (something we're good at as a species) we're spending all of our time trying to knock the 'other' side down. Articles like this epitomize it, and 'news' sources like FoxNews make billions a year doing it. They strive for partisan hackery in everything they do. The real sad part is they're clearly not alone. Both sides have multiple mouthpieces in many different mediums.
    are you done with your soapbox speech?

    "collective" response these days has assumed all sorts of new meanings that many of us have become wise to.

    NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
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    George Mason

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    What's not going to happen?

    And what is it I said that bothers you so much that you have insult it? I'm just curious. If you have a problem with what I said it'd be much more productive if you actually indicated it instead of just responding with general sarcasm and hints of disgust.

    edit: ah, i think i understand with the collective part now. couldn't connect the dots earlier for some reason...
    i'm curious as to what it is you think you've become wise to... society in general has proven it's ability to creatively solve or mitigate issues, it just seems to take a national tragedy to get everyone on the same page anymore. which is most unfortunate. everything else falls to political bickering by people who seem to be convinced they're playing for some sort of 'team' and that the object is to make sure the 'other team' losses instead of trying to actually solve problems.
    Last edited by tshile; 05-03-12 at 12:44 PM.
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    Marine Corps Virginia

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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    are you done with your soapbox speech?



    "collective" response these days has assumed all sorts of new meanings that many of us have become wise to.



    NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

    Might seem harmless enough, but you change the whole tone of this thread with the sarcasm and belittling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    What's not going to happen?

    And what is it I said that bothers you so much that you have insult it? I'm just curious. If you have a problem with what I said it'd be much more productive if you actually indicated it instead of just responding with general sarcasm and hints of disgust.
    A small piece of advice: don't bother. There are some people with such a narrow-view of the world that they just attack anything and everything that does not fit within that view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    Yeah i'm in the boat of: we do impact it, but not nearly as much as the alarmists want us to believe. In either case we should make a real effort to stop polluting.

    Whats the old saying? don't **** where you eat? well we've been ****ting where we eat since the industrial revolution and it's time we realize how terrible it is for us - climate change aside, we're ruining rivers, food supplies, etc all because we have decided as society we don't give a crap about pollution for some reason.

    These wind farms are producing a side effect that's manageable, and one thats born out of a desire to fix a much larger problem. To write them off simply because of this is such a terrible sign to me. The general public still doesn't take pollution and it's impacts seriously. To the point where we have created this electric car that literally just shifts the source of the pollution... and it's working. People are buying these things....

    It all just makes me sad. Instead of trying to collective solve a problem (something we're good at as a species) we're spending all of our time trying to knock the 'other' side down. Articles like this epitomize it, and 'news' sources like FoxNews make billions a year doing it. They strive for partisan hackery in everything they do. The real sad part is they're clearly not alone. Both sides have multiple mouthpieces in many different mediums.
    Love this post! Embodies every opinion I have about the environment, and the growing frustration with the general apathy towards it. I'm not sure what its going to take to get people on board, but its going to have to be some sort of drastic environmental event.
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    With all due respect...I disagree.

    I read a rant with vulgar language that also contained a littany of broad assertions...really just emotional outbursts ("it's time we realize how terrible it is")...and rather than allow past to be prologue.....simply responded along two lines:

    - point out that it was a speech and not factual argument

    - that many of us have come to learn in the recent past that "collective action" is codepeak for "do it my way". not a personal jibe at T in that regard. more so at the wider agenda of the environmental movement (and other poltical interest groups). going along colelctively? aint going to happen. no mas. no chance. no way. fool us once.....blah blah blah.

    btw...I have driven by these wind farms in the Lawrence Livermore area: nicely hidden from upper class neighborhoods (or Kennedy veranda views), killing lots of wildlife, stil lplagued by environmentalist challenges to the energy transport part of the infrastructure.
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    George Mason

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    it will take some sort of tragedy. unfortunately, the nature of our environment implies that by that time it will be much too late.
    it's probably too late as it is. we've been destroying our environment for 80 years in a serious way and it's going to take a long time of really restraining ourselves to try to fix it.

    people don't have patients.

    it's like seeing an isolationist complain about people overseas taking our jobs while blogging on his iPad.
    people don't actually have any of the morals or concerns they love to preach about until it actually starts impacting their day to day life.
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    George Mason

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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    With all due respect...I disagree.

    I read a rant with vulgar language that also contained a littany of broad assertions...really just emotional outbursts ("it's time we realize how terrible it is")...and rather than allow past to be prologue.....simply responded along two lines:

    - point out that it was a speech and not factual argument

    - that many of us have come to learn in the recent past that "collective action" is codepeak for "do it my way". not a personal jibe at T in that regard. more so at the wider agenda of the environmental movement (and other poltical interest groups). going along colelctively? aint going to happen. no mas. no chance. no way. fool us once.....blah blah blah.

    btw...I have driven by these wind farms in the Lawrence Livermore area: nicely hidden from upper class neighborhoods (or Kennedy veranda views), killing lots of wildlife, stil lplagued by environmentalist challenges to the energy transport part of the infrastructure.

    so the idea that pollution is bad and is impacting our environment is not factual?

    i take it you haven't bothered to pay attention to any science over the last 20 years?

    and it's not about being an environmental movement. it's about deciding whether or not you care about the state of the world around us. if you do care, whether or not you're willing to make the sacrifices needed to actually do something.

    but based on your post it would seem you don't care what the state will be for future generations. which is really a shame. there was once a time in this country where people, in general, did care what they were leaving behind for future generations.

    now its all about me and now, and who cares what happens after you die.
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    I have spent my entire life growing up near the Lynnhaven and Elizabeth rivers, as well as the Chesapeake Bay. Because of my love of fishing and the outdoors, and cooking what I catch, I have had to deal with pollution first hand in ways most people turn a blind eye to.

    I don't know where it stands now, but I remember hearing when I was a kid that the Elizabeth River was one of the most polluted rivers in the world. You couldn't pay me to eat anything out of there, and I won't fish it. I've also had to deal with partial or complete closures to clamming and oyster digging in the Lynnhaven due to toxic regulations. Anyone around the bay knows it has been a decades long on again of again struggle there as well.

    I would not consider myself an environmentalist at all. It doesn't mean I hate the environment, it just means that I think agencies like the EPA can do just as much harm as good. When it comes to waterways, they are the lifelines of everything on the planet, so I understand the need to protect them. After all, without clean water we all die.

    The problem I have with some over-regulation, is that the solution is sometimes worse than the problem. For example, the Chesapeake watershed regulation put into place about 10 years ago. Here in Virginia Beach, you cannot apply any non-organic fertilizer to a yard that is within a certain distance from a waterway. As a former long time landscaper, I can tell you why this is a huge problem. So-called man-made fertilizer is not the demon people make it out to be. It is time released, and entirely water soluble. It goes away in a relatively short time, and if runoff does cause it to go into the waterways, there is not enough of it used to become a problem, not even close. You would need trillions of pounds of it to make any dent on the waterways. The bigger problem is their solution - organic fertilizer. Organic doesn't always make something better. In fact, it never makes something better. Organic fertilizer is excessively high in uric acid. Uric acid never goes away. It builds up. It stays in the ground, stays in the water, etc. You can always spot a yard that uses organic fertilizer - it's the one that was the best looking in the neighborhood for 3 or 4 years, now it's the worst looking. The uric acid makes the ground toxic. Organic farmers have begun learning this lesson the hard way. Entire orchards have been lost or relocated due to the ground toxicity from the uric acid. But you never hear these stories getting major coverage, because that would kill the whole green freak/environmentalist/organic is better movement the EPA and Democrats have tried to shove down America's throat.

    People rely too much on what a company or organization tells them, instead of looking at facts. Organic food started becoming popular in the late 90s. Then all you heard was how much safer and better they were than commercially grown foods. But you know who said that? The organic farmers. But people bought into it. Now autism rates have skyrocketed, cancer rates have increased, and seemingly healthier eaters and higher class people (the main organic consumers) are dying at younger ages, and nobody has figured out there might be a link? If it comes out that the ingesting of massive quantities of uric acid for decades is causing all of this, you can tell all your friends some crazy guy on BGO mentioned it before it was popular

    I know I trailed off and went on a long rant, but it's all tied in together to me. It's all regulation that claims to be for the good of the people or planet, but it all proves to either be just as bad, or worse than what we've been doing. The government needs to learn how to take a middle ground stance once in a while, instead of always thinking every single solution is to do a 180.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    A small piece of advice: don't bother. There are some people with such a narrow-view of the world that they just attack anything and everything that does not fit within that view.
    from God's mouth to our ears.

    now this one is making me laugh!!!!

    anyway..have a nice day!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    I have spent my entire life growing up near the Lynnhaven and Elizabeth rivers, as well as the Chesapeake Bay. Because of my love of fishing and the outdoors, and cooking what I catch, I have had to deal with pollution first hand in ways most people turn a blind eye to.

    I don't know where it stands now, but I remember hearing when I was a kid that the Elizabeth River was one of the most polluted rivers in the world. You couldn't pay me to eat anything out of there, and I won't fish it. I've also had to deal with partial or complete closures to clamming and oyster digging in the Lynnhaven due to toxic regulations. Anyone around the bay knows it has been a decades long on again of again struggle there as well.

    I would not consider myself an environmentalist at all. It doesn't mean I hate the environment, it just means that I think agencies like the EPA can do just as much harm as good. When it comes to waterways, they are the lifelines of everything on the planet, so I understand the need to protect them. After all, without clean water we all die.

    The problem I have with some over-regulation, is that the solution is sometimes worse than the problem. For example, the Chesapeake watershed regulation put into place about 10 years ago. Here in Virginia Beach, you cannot apply any non-organic fertilizer to a yard that is within a certain distance from a waterway. As a former long time landscaper, I can tell you why this is a huge problem. So-called man-made fertilizer is not the demon people make it out to be. It is time released, and entirely water soluble. It goes away in a relatively short time, and if runoff does cause it to go into the waterways, there is not enough of it used to become a problem, not even close. You would need trillions of pounds of it to make any dent on the waterways. The bigger problem is their solution - organic fertilizer. Organic doesn't always make something better. In fact, it never makes something better. Organic fertilizer is excessively high in uric acid. Uric acid never goes away. It builds up. It stays in the ground, stays in the water, etc. You can always spot a yard that uses organic fertilizer - it's the one that was the best looking in the neighborhood for 3 or 4 years, now it's the worst looking. The uric acid makes the ground toxic. Organic farmers have begun learning this lesson the hard way. Entire orchards have been lost or relocated due to the ground toxicity from the uric acid. But you never hear these stories getting major coverage, because that would kill the whole green freak/environmentalist/organic is better movement the EPA and Democrats have tried to shove down America's throat.

    People rely too much on what a company or organization tells them, instead of looking at facts. Organic food started becoming popular in the late 90s. Then all you heard was how much safer and better they were than commercially grown foods. But you know who said that? The organic farmers. But people bought into it. Now autism rates have skyrocketed, cancer rates have increased, and seemingly healthier eaters and higher class people (the main organic consumers) are dying at younger ages, and nobody has figured out there might be a link? If it comes out that the ingesting of massive quantities of uric acid for decades is causing all of this, you can tell all your friends some crazy guy on BGO mentioned it before it was popular

    I know I trailed off and went on a long rant, but it's all tied in together to me. It's all regulation that claims to be for the good of the people or planet, but it all proves to either be just as bad, or worse than what we've been doing. The government needs to learn how to take a middle ground stance once in a while, instead of always thinking every single solution is to do a 180.

    bingo! it's not a binary yes/no problem space. there is room for "collective agreement". but that's not the goal or modus operandi of the EPA/Sierra Clubs of the world.

    the problem is that environmentalism has become something of a religion detached from rational risk/cost based resource allocation decision-making.
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    correlation does not equal causation.

    that aside, i agree that a government agency 'regulating' things isn't the only way to solve the problem, and in some cases it does hurt more than it helps.

    i wish a government agency did as it was supposed to, instead of becoming an ever-increasing budget expense that wastes money and makes accomplishing things more difficult.

    i've grown up on the bay as well. crabs and oysters are a huge part of my life. a big problem for those water ways is upstream. it's called richmond. oh and also DC/Potomac. forgot about that.
    Last edited by tshile; 05-03-12 at 03:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    so the idea that pollution is bad and is impacting our environment is not factual?

    i take it you haven't bothered to pay attention to any science over the last 20 years?

    and it's not about being an environmental movement. it's about deciding whether or not you care about the state of the world around us. if you do care, whether or not you're willing to make the sacrifices needed to actually do something.

    but based on your post it would seem you don't care what the state will be for future generations. which is really a shame. there was once a time in this country where people, in general, did care what they were leaving behind for future generations.

    now its all about me and now, and who cares what happens after you die.
    you can do better than a strawman argument.

    but yea...I do think the epidemiological evidence is dubious, to say the least, when it comes to mandating sulphate scrubbing standard increases from 92% to 96%. the cost increases are huge at the margin with minimal gains. I do believe the global warming movement is largely an anti-growth, ideological effort founded on inconclusive....sometimes demonstrably contrived...data/science. I do belive the Earth seen from the perspective of milennia is in perpetual change and that mankind is a blip on the screen...that volcanic explosions pump more "garbage" into the atmosphere than all the detestable SUVs do in a years. that much environmentalism, not all, is foisted upon the population at the expense of the population.

    every decision inherently has an opportunity cost. nothing is black and white.
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  20. #20

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    George Mason

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    see, you're focused solely on global warming and that movement.

    you've yet to catch on to the fact that the conversation (when you entered it) had moved beyond global warming and was discussing pollution in general.

    ironically, the conversation was about how the global warming 'controversy' has caused everyone to (for some reason) stop caring about pollution and only care about trying to 'win' the argument on global warming.... and here we are... arguing the validity of global warming.

    which, funny enough, i mostly agree with you when it comes to global warming. but you wont allow yourself to see that and move on, you've painted me as an environmentalist who wants to restrict your options in life or at least make them more costly in the name of global warming.
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