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  1. #1
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    Army

    Default NFL: Saints Offered Bounty For Injuring Opponents

    http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/N...nts-NFL-030212

    This is just disturbing and sick. You can go ahead and add the Saints to the list as a worthless scumbag franchise with the Patriots.
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  2. #2

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    James Madison

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    Settle down. Did you think this was going to be limited to the Saints:

    The Washington Redskins had a bounty system for big hits on opponents under former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams that was similar to the one revealed by an NFL investigation of the New Orleans Saints, four players who played under Williams said Friday.

    Three of the players described a coach who doled out thousands of dollars to Redskins defenders who measured up to Williams’s scoring system for rugged play, including “kill shots” that knocked opposing teams’stars out of a game.

    “You got compensated more for a kill shot than you did other hits,” said one former player, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    Of the four players interviewed, only Philip Daniels, a former defensive lineman, was willing to be quoted on the record. He defended Williams’s coaching. Daniels now serves as the team’s director of player development.

    Players said compensation ranged from “hundreds to thousands of dollars,” with the biggest sum any player received believed to be about $8,000.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...washingtonpost
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    OLine. DLine. Secondary.

  3. #3
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    Florida State

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    Non-issue in my book. Football is a violent sport! It is an acceptable notion that a defender rushing the QB is trying to knock that guy out of the game. If they are purposely going after knees or the like, that is scumbaggish. But if it is a bonus for a hard hit that knocks one of the star player on the opposing team out of the game, then I see nothing wrong with it.

    Should the guys who get bonuses in the UFC for knock-out of the night be condemned too?
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  4. #4

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    Marine Corps Virginia

    Default

    I don't think that's a precise enough take Brian. On the one hand, I get your viewpoint and have had the same thoughts myself. The bottom line is, the very nature of the sport is to physically dominate your opponent and that ultimately means violent collisions.

    On the other hand, there are two major issues here. First of all is basic sportsmanship. Putting a 'bounty' on another player, not just in terms of dominating him, but rewarding players for hurting (possibly permanently) opponents is neither a good idea nor very sportsmanlike. Just as importantly, there are specific rules against bounty setting, and every front office and coaching staff in the league knows it.

    Essentially, it sounds like Gregg Williams decided he would do what he wanted and ignore what the league's position was. And that's likely going to result in him being fired. He may be just the first of many to lose their jobs.

    I have no doubt this is not an uncommon practice across the NFL for the reasons you stated. But just like with most jobs, when Administration adopts a position you violate it at your own risk. The comparison that comes to mind are HIPAA laws in healthcare. You might be the greatest clinician in the world and do incredible work every day. But violate a HIPAA law and you will lose your job. And it'll happen so fast your head will spin. Zero tolerance.

    I think some may be surprised at how Goodell reacts to this.

    I feel bad for Williams as I think he's a good guy. But he's always been a 'I'll do what I want' kind of a guy (look at the missing man play after Sean Taylor's death for an obvious example). While I love that about the guy, it's not surprising that eventually that kind of mindset can really come back to bite you, particularly in the politically correct environment we all live in nowadays.
    Last edited by Boone; 03-02-12 at 10:07 PM.
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  5. #5
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    The biggest problem I have with it, is the fact that he was offering bonuses not for hard hits, but for telling the guys to go out there and try to cause injury. In football, if you get offered a bonus for going all out and trying your hardest to injure somebody, you can maim, cripple or kill somebody. It's sick, and he needs to be permanently removed from the league.

    Telling someone to go out and really put a hit on a guy is immensely different from telling someone you will give them thousands of dollars if they cripple a guy and end his career.

    And Brian, your response on this confuses me, since you were so down on Matthew Stafford when he made that dirty illegal hit against the Bears out of frustration a few months ago. This is so much worse than that.
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  6. #6
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    Florida State

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    Apples and oranges Nathan, and I addressed your example in my previous statement, dirty play which is different than a good solid hit. Stafford grabbed a player by their head and intentionally tried to rip his head off out of frustration. This is about hitting another player. I do not for a second believe the intent is to maim any individual player, but hurting the opposing player has been understood in football since it's inception. This is a violent sport and you gain whatever advantage you can. If it means putting a solid hit on Tom Brady to put him out of the game, that is a goal of defenders all over the league.

    We are not talking about hitting a player from behind and ripping their knee up so you get a bonus. We are talking about rewards for hard hits. Now Boone's point was poignant. Having a rule in place against this and the fact that that rule was broken is where the outrage should be.
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

  7. #7
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    Army

    Default

    Point noted, and I totally understand where you're coming from, but from how the article was written, there was a reward system for being dirty. There's no other way they can explain how you could give a guy a bonus for ending someone's game, season, career, etc. or having someone carted off the field.

    Hits with results like that have a long history of being illegal/dirty. Rarely do you ever see a legal play result in a season ending injury or a player being carted from the field. And when money is used as a motivating factor, the players are too stupid to care whether they're playing within the rules.
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  8. #8

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    Marine Corps Virginia

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    I think you're both off, if only a bit. Extreme - you said 'In football, if you get offered a bonus for going all out and trying your hardest to injure somebody, you can maim, cripple or kill somebody'. There's no evidence anyone said 'try your hardest to injure someone', at least not that I've seen. Putting a hit on someone (whether you are do it in the absence or presence of a 'bounty') is expected and encouraged. In other words, lets face it (and I think this is what Elephant is trying to express), knocking someone out of a game with a hard hit is desirable and encouraged in football. That's not the same thing as a bounty to 'hurt' or 'injure' someone. I know it's a fine line, and that's why the whole idea of a bounty is a bad, bad idea, because it blurs the line.

    Elephant, I think you're sugar-coating this to an extent - because the bounty wasn't (apparently) being offered for 'good hits'. It was being offered for putting someone out of the game. While that doesn't necessarily mean 'hurt someone' - it certainly could result in that. Whether the chance of players being seriously hurt in the presence of a bounty is greater than otherwise, I don't know. But there's an implied intent there that is enough for the league to ask that coaches not employ that method.

    Ultimately, restricting a 'bounty' has never impeded a player from pursuing a violent hit. So I have to ask, why would a coach feel the need to go there, knowing they are absolutely disregarding league philosophy. I don't see it any differently than performance enhancing drugs. I know why guys give in to temptation. But ultimately, if you disregard the rules, you are going to pay a heavy price. And when it's coaches blowing off major league policies, you can bet, heads are going to roll. And honestly - shouldn't they?

    I think Williams (and perhaps others) may lose their jobs over this. And they probably have earned it. That's why you're hearing such contrition from the outset.
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  9. #9
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    Florida State

    Default

    And like I said, I agree with the ramifications if it is a rule the NFL has in place. But the problem I have is that putting the opposing QB out of the game is nothing new. You think what Dick Butkus did back in the day is any different? That man did try to dislodge a head or 2. I think the NFL is getting soft. I think this is much ado about nothing. Coaches trying to motivate their players? Did he cross a line? I don't know, but it looks like many of you believe he did.

    Like I said, if he goes out there and pays his players to fall back on someone's knees, that's over board, a major problem. If he is paying his players a bonus for a solid hit, I have no problem with it.
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

  10. #10

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    Marine Corps Virginia

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    I actually think the various points of view already expressed here highlight the problem with a 'bounty'. One guy views it as a fun incentive to do what he always tries to do, get to a QB and put a licking on him for example. Another views it as a license to injure the guy. That's why the idea of a 'bounty' is so ill-advised and, to be blunt, just plain stupid. Once you open that door, there's no controlling what happens and how far an individual player might go. And when something horrible does result, it's going to look like a coach not just endorsed that, but encouraged it, whether that was the intent or not.

    Ultimately, the NFL is going to judge this in the absolute worst possible light - and rightfully so. Again, I'll raise the healthcare HIPAA example. Few people mean to violate a patient's rights when they break a privacy reg. It doesn't matter - it's still going to get you fired, and almost without exception. Sexual harassment (think about the 'Tailhook' incident with the US Navy) is the same kind of thing. You watch - heads, and more than one, will end up rolling over this.
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  11. #11
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    Navy

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    My problem with this is not just the potential wussification of my favorite sport but how the media is expecting the public to be universally outraged.

    I am under the impression that during Gregg (the 3rd g is for Genuine Idiot) Williams time with the Saints that the late hits and fines are on par with the rest of the league. But I guess we will all find out soon.
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