A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

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  1. #1
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    Default QB: Pass on Griffin and Flynn

    The 2011 draft was a good start. You maximize your chances with more picks, something that escaped Vinny Cerrato for the 10 plus years he was in the building. He viewed draft picks after the first round, such as the #2 and #6 the team surrendered for 34 year old Jason Taylor, as throwaways. The Steelers and Packers build their teams with those picks.

    2010 wasn’t a total loss if Trent Williams comes back with greater maturity and dedication to realizing his talent and Perry Riley continues to improve at ILB.

    But the loss of those picks for McNabb and Jammal Brown hurt, not the least reason being that neither player has done much to help the bottom line number of wins the team achieved in either 2010 or 2011.

    That said, I have been going back and forth on whether it is worth trading a basket of picks to move up in the draft to the spot occupied by St. Louis to take Griffin ahead of the Browns, who would likely not let him fall below #4 overall.

    At first I was in favor of doing it, but now after considering how much depth this team is still lacking and other critical areas where the starters are average at best, I don’t think this April is the time to make that move.

    My gut feeling is the team should move down from #6 and pick up additional picks as it did in 2011 and come out of the draft with 2 or 3 starters in the first couple of rounds.

    Whether that means Tannehill (or other rookie qb) is in play in the middle to late first and an option is a risk that would have to be taken.

    But the odds are that there are passers beyond Luck and Griffin that are going to be pro bowlers coming out of the 2012 draft class.

    The option of trying to make a deal with Green Bay for Matt Flynn is enticing if the cost is a #2 or #3 next year. But the reality is that most of the backups that get traded in this league after limited playing time don’t turn out to be difference makers.

    Look at Kevin Kolb who ended this past season sharing the qb duties with Skelton. At the time of the deal so many including John Clayton thought Kolb was a potential franchise quarterback. Now it looks as if a #2 and a pro bowl corner who is only 26 years old was a LOT to give up for a guy that is struggling right now to be considered a solid starter.

    Matt Cassel is another that gained notoriety in playing one season for the Patriots and was dealt for a #2 pick and a player. While Cassel showed he was a competent game manager in taking the Chiefs to 10-6 last year, he is hardly a guy with franchise skills as a passer and playmaker.

    Either team would have been better off with Andy Dalton. And that is what makes me think the Redskins would be better off staying away from Flynn, a former seventh round pick in 2008 and using their picks to find a quarterback in the draft.

    I am not opposed to signing a veteran to start a portion of the team’s games in 2012 as a transitional figure, but I would hope it is not Rex Grossman. Nothing negates a team’s effort and improvement more than turnovers. It’s a morale buster and gets teammates into playing tentatively on offense. The development of the younger receivers and backs on this team are retarded when you have such instability.

    The Titans did things the right way in 2010 by drafting Jake Locker and then going out and signing Matt Hasselbeck to take the heat off the team while Locker developed in practice and by watching from the bench as a rookie.
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    Florida Atlantic

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    Flynn is a FA I believe, so they wouldn't have to give up any picks to get him. Unless of course Green Bay tags him, but I've heard others say they're going to use their franchise tag on Finley.
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  3. #3
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    Lanky beat me to it.
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

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    I think what Bulldog is referring to is indeed the possibility of the Packers franchising Flynn. Cassell was a free agent but New England franchised and made a deal.

    If the Pack franchise him then I look the other way but if he is a free agent then I think we should at least consider him as an option. I've heard about some issues with Finley and the franchise tag, he apparently wants to be franchised as a WR or something.
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    Florida State

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    If Flynn is franchised, then I say no.
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

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    I think the idea of franchising a BACKUP quarterback, with only a couple starts under his belt, is ridiculous.
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    Virginia

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    Flynn will not be franchised. That "honor" will go to their TE, Finley. The Packers are ok with letting Flynn walk and drafting a QB in the later rounds. They feel as if their system is fine for making such a move. That should send red flags and warning bells to any team that covets Flynn.

    Look for Cleveland to sign Flynn - Holmgren has a major crush on Trent Richardson and will probably draft the Alabama RB. Holmgren has a long history of getting backups at QB from other teams and doing well with them - Hasselbeck, Steve Young, and some guy named Favre

    The cost for moving up to get RG3 will be the 6th pick, probably a 4th rounder - maybe both, and a first in 2013. Bottom line - you make that move. The key to any trade up will be to keep any and all second round picks. Coach Shanahan and GM Allen have proven that they are savvy dealers in the draft and trading down to a lower position in the second round this year and next (2011 draft brought us five players in such a maneuver).
    Last edited by Burgundy Burner; 01-11-12 at 03:45 PM.
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    The simplicity in me is complicated.
    I live in my own little world, but that's ok. They know me here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    If Flynn is franchised, then I say no.
    Which is exactly a good logic on why he won't be franchised.

    If we're smart enough to realize that he's not worth going after, as a franchise player, then Green Bay is surely smart enough to realize that the guy is not worth franchising.
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    Florida Atlantic

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    If Green Bay franchises Flynn, they have to pay him a one-year deal worth the average of top 5 QBs in the NFL. That's a lot of dough for a backup QB, all guaranteed. If everyone else calls their bluff and they get stuck with that contract, they'd be in bad shape cap-wise.
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    I say Luck goes#1 and RG3 goes #2. The only question is, who do the Rams trade with?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundy Burner View Post
    The cost for moving up to get RG3 will be the 6th pick, probably a 4th rounder - maybe both, and a first in 2013. Bottom line - you make that move. The key to any trade up will be to keep any and all second round picks. Coach Shanahan and GM Allen have proven that they are savvy dealers in the draft and trading down to a lower position in the second round this year and next (2011 draft brought us five players in such a maneuver).
    I would say that if we could move up with the Rams for our 1st rounder, a couple of 4th round picks and our 1st rounder next year I probably would do that deal. I have been on the fence about moving up for RG3 but if we could work out a deal like that I would be all for it.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinsfan76 View Post
    I say Luck goes#1 and RG3 goes #2. The only question is, who do the Rams trade with?
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    Even with all the needs the Rams have, I just don't see them wanting to trade down that far. They could still get a quality Offensive Lineman or possibly Blackmon at either #4 or #6 so it could really be a fight between us and the Browns. It's gonna be a VERY interesting couple of months.
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    "Pass on Griffin" ??

    Is this supposed to be some kind of funny ??
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinsfan76 View Post
    I would say that if we could move up with the Rams for our 1st rounder, a couple of 4th round picks and our 1st rounder next year I probably would do that deal. I have been on the fence about moving up for RG3 but if we could work out a deal like that I would be all for it.
    It would be great if we could hold onto our 2nd round pick this year, especially in light of the great draft maneuvering last year. However, this seems unlikely. If STL is going to potentially miss out on Kaili or Blackmon they are going to want immediate value in addition to the extra 1st round pick in the 2013 draft. I can't envision a scenario in which the compensation for the Skins to trade up to #2 is any less than swapping firsts and sending the Rams a 3rd in 2012 and a 1st in 2013 (short of including player(s) in the deal, but then who?)

    Analysis shows that teams actually use the draft trade chart: http://emergentmath.wordpress.com/20...g-draft-picks/

    I've also scored some of Shanahan's previous trades and he seems to follow the trade chart. For example, in 2006 while with the Broncos, Shanahan traded up to draft Jay Cutler.

    Scoring the Cutler trade based on the draft trade chart (which can be found here: http://www.drafttek.com/tradechart.html):

    DEN got 1.11.06 (1st round, 11th pick in 2006): 1250
    STL got 1.15.06 (1050) + 3.68.06 (250) = 1300

    In this example, the trade seems relatively even based on the draft trade chart.

    Although the article linked above indicates that trading into the top 5 has historically worked out in favor of the team trading up to that spot (based on the draft trade chart,) this was likely due to a discount given based on insane top 5 contracts. With this no longer being a factor due to the rookie wage scale, the top 5 trade discount will likely be a thing of the past.

    I'm all about building through the draft (I love the draft!) and I despised the years of Vinny trading away all of our draft picks, but there's a time to be patient and to go for quantity over quality (2011 draft) and there's a time to be bold and take your best shot at getting a guy you project as a franchise QB (2012 draft.) I'm not on the fence - I hope the Skins trade up for RG3. Of course there are limits to what they should give up, but I would expect the move to cost at or slightly above what the draft trade chart dictates. My expectation is that the move will cost a 1st, 2nd in 2012 and a 1st in 2013. In my mind this would be worth it to get RG3, but then I'm huge RG3 fan.
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  15. #15

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    I'll put it out there. I want either RG3 or Flynn. Anything else seems like settling and we've settled for less to often for too many years. I wish we could continue to build a team through the draft, but we need a leader on the field. I'll be happy with either and do not have a favorite although thinking about the dynamic play of RG3 blossoming in the NFL is tempting.
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  16. #16

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    RG3 is a risk, but the rewards are astronomical. You gotta go out and get this kid!
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Money View Post
    I'll put it out there. I want either RG3 or Flynn. Anything else seems like settling and we've settled for less to often for too many years. I wish we could continue to build a team through the draft, but we need a leader on the field. I'll be happy with either and do not have a favorite although thinking about the dynamic play of RG3 blossoming in the NFL is tempting.
    This is pretty much where I sit as well. While it doesn't make it so, in my mind if we don't get one of these two then it's a setback for the organization. It could very well be silly thinking on my part but I'm getting a little impatient with waiting on Shanahan and Allen to produce a winner. I'm not getting any younger.
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  18. #18

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    My position on both Flynn and RG3 is from a slightly diferent perspective than most, I think. Mine comes from the idea of how much improvement is available over what the Redskins have now.

    Think about that.

    What we have now is Rex Grossman and John Beck.

    Think about that.

    Both Flynn and RG3 have plusses and minuses.

    RG3 is a talented college QB coming into the draft with what seem to be a number of potentially team-changing skills that could prove to be invaluable to a team's improvement. He is also coming in as a rookie. One of the most difficult challenges facing a rookie coming into the NFL is the speed of the game and the speed and strength of the players he'll be encountering. The transition to getting used to this will take a certain amount of time-how long is an unknown-but it is there. There will be a learning curve for him in the multitude of defensive schemes he'll face that he's never encountered in college-but this kid is smart, he'll probably be a quick study. He also as absolutely no character issues hanging over him to cloud his future that I'm aware of.

    Matt Flynn, although he has only a small body of in-game work has already made this transition. He practices with NFL players, he's played-and played well-in games against the fast strong players that a RG3 will not have encountered and will take time to get accustomed to. Flynn, however has nowhere near the athletic potential of RG3. He has a lower upside and the risk of deteriorating performance due to system change. The Redskins offer him fewer high-level tools. We do not have Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Jerome Finley, Donald Driver or Randall Cobb. He's used to and has been helped by a WR corps the Redskins simply don't have. I'd put Gaffney and Moss at best as roughly equivalent to Donald Driver-either might be #3 or #4 WRs on the Packers and that's it. Will Flynn's skill prove to be as much a product of a superlative group of receivers as anything else? Big question.

    However, given all the above caveats I would be perfectly fine with the Redskins grabbing either one of them for two major reasons.

    They both throw the damn football far more accurately than Grossman and have better mobility and both look to be better decision makers than either him or John Beck.

    The Redskins seem to have steered themselves in the direction of improving the quality of players they put on the field and the most glaring improvement needed now to me is at QB. Maybe Tannehill? Maybe somebody I haven't even heard of but I'm done with the Grossman/Beck experiment and want to see better starting next season-I won't gripe if it isn't Griffin, neither will I gripe if it isn't Flynn, or Luck, or any other newcomer to the Redskins that does better under center than what we have now.
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    I'm giving it a 2-4 year window. Looking for improvement in all areas. Redskins, you're on the clock.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    RG3 is a risk, but the rewards are astronomical. You gotta go out and get this kid!
    here's something out of Left field.....pun intended: I AGREE!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by servumtuum View Post
    My position on both Flynn and RG3 is from a slightly diferent perspective than most, I think.
    Serv...my much admired Redskin brotha....I had to note the punctuation closely when I hit that "I think" post-fix!!!! thought for a nano-second there you had cleverly B-slapped us!!!


    I kid. I kid.....


    I'm with ya btw. I decided driving to work today...throw caution out the window. invest whatever it takes and get the RGIII kid. have your franchise QB for the next 10-12 years. if it delays a rebuild a year or so....ok by me! I'm back to where I was during the season QB......get a franchise QB whatever it takes.
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