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In a tie for the 6th Pick with the Jaguars, the tie-breaker goes to.......

The Skins front office would be MORE LIKELY to draft well had the team finished with zero wins than with five. That’s a fact. It’s not speculation.

Oldfan, it is not possible to claim this as fact since neither scenario has even happened. You cannot possibly call conjecture a fact. It is not logical.
 
That's certainly true, but it has nothing to do with the statement you quoted.


The Skins front office would be MORE LIKELY to draft well had the team finished with zero wins than with five. That’s a fact. It’s not speculation.

I disagree. If our front office put together and coached a team that went 0-16, it may mean they would be less likely than our current 5-11 front office to either a) be able to draft well or b) keep their jobs. Making the assumption that all things would be equal with an 0-16 Redskins squad is speculation.

You are correct that, absent any other factors whatsoever, Allen and Shanahan given the #1 pick is better than Allen and Shanahan given the #6 pick, but outside factors do exist so I find that point more or less moot. Allen and Shanahan do not comprise a front office so horrible that they couldn't win a game and I don't see that as a bad thing, even though we don't have the top pick.
 
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I disagree. If our front office put together and coached a team that went 0-16, it may mean they would be less likely than our current 5-11 front office to either a) be able to draft well or b) keep their jobs. Making the assumption that all things would be equal with an 0-16 Redskins squad is speculation.
Read this statement once again:

The Skins front office would be MORE LIKELY to draft well had the team finished with zero wins than with five. That’s a fact. It’s not speculation.

Doesn't that statement make it clear enough that I am referring to THIS Skins front office and not two different, imaginary Skins front offices?

If you're still confused, I'll make my point another way:

Because of a higher draft position, THE SAME FRONT OFFICE on any team would be MORE LIKELY to draft well had their team finished with zero wins rather than five. That's a fact, not speculation.
 
Read this statement once again:

The Skins front office would be MORE LIKELY to draft well had the team finished with zero wins than with five. That’s a fact. It’s not speculation.

Doesn't that statement make it clear enough that I am referring to THIS Skins front office and not two different, imaginary Skins front offices?

If you're still confused, I'll make my point another way:

Because of a higher draft position, THE SAME FRONT OFFICE on any team would be MORE LIKELY to draft well had their team finished with zero wins rather than five. That's a fact, not speculation.

Yes I get it, which is why I said 'absent any other factors whatsover' you are correct.

My point is that had we gone 0-16 or whatever, it wouldn't be the same front office. In that alternate universe, our front office would have proven to be less capable and/or lucky.

The speculation on your part is that our front office at 0-16 would be the same as it is now at 5-11. You can't say a Redskin front office that goes 0-16 is not imaginary because it is. That is also a fact.
 
Oldfan, it is not possible to claim this as fact since neither scenario has even happened. You cannot possibly call conjecture a fact. It is not logical.

Decision A has a 75% chance of success.

Decision B has a 90% chance of success.

If I say that Decision B is more likely to succeed, is that not a fact even though I haven't given you something that actually happened?
 
I disagree. If our front office put together and coached a team that went 0-16, it may mean they would be less likely than our current 5-11 front office to either a) be able to draft well or b) keep their jobs. Making the assumption that all things would be equal with an 0-16 Redskins squad is speculation.

You are correct that, absent any other factors whatsoever, Allen and Shanahan given the #1 pick is better than Allen and Shanahan given the #6 pick, but outside factors do exist so I find that point more or less moot. Allen and Shanahan do not comprise a front office so horrible that they couldn't win a game and I don't see that as a bad thing, even though we don't have the top pick.


the problem...H....is that you can't quantify what you are asserting. or...better put...you haven't quantified it yet - it's qualitative speculation without any probability or weighting one can use to make a rational decision. on the other hand....as you admit.....drafting number 1 versus number 6 has quantifiable attributes (e.g., pool of available talent - precisely the problem confronting the Skins as it relates to QBs).
 
the problem...H....is that you can't quantify what you are asserting. on the other hand....as you admit.....drafting number 1 versus number 6 has quantifiable attributes (e.g., pool of available talent - precisely the problem confronting the Skins as it relates to QBs).

Yes, but what I am asserting affects the supposedly quantifiable benefits of the draft, which makes it all speculative anyway.

And in that case, I'll root for wins and let the rest sort itself out.
 
Yes I get it, which is why I said 'absent any other factors whatsover' you are correct.

My point is that had we gone 0-16 or whatever, it wouldn't be the same front office. In that alternate universe, our front office would have proven to be less capable and/or lucky.

The speculation on your part is that our front office at 0-16 would be the same as it is now at 5-11. You can't say a Redskin front office that goes 0-16 is not imaginary because it is. That is also a fact.
What you are saying, in effect, is that the luck factor in a football season could not have been so bad that this five-win team could have gone winless.

I can't imagine how you came to that conclusion.

Maybe we were lucky to win five. Who knows?
 
What you are saying, in effect, is that the luck factor in a football season could not have been so bad that this five-win team could have gone winless.

I can't imagine how you came to that conclusion.

Oh it's possible, just not likely considering only one team in the history of the 16 game season has ever lost them all. So while I suppose it's possible to be that unlucky, given the rarity of such a bad season it would MOST LIKELY be more than just bad luck. Of course that's all just speculation since we didn't actually go 0-16.

Which was kinda my point.

Maybe we were lucky to win five. Who knows?

Nobody does. Of course if we were lucky to win five, if this coaching staff and GM had built a team that was really only good enough to win 0 games ... why would we trust them to put together a decent draft? We'd better hope it wasn't luck, right?
 
Oh it's possible, just not likely considering only one team in the history of the 16 game season has ever lost them all. So while I suppose it's possible to be that unlucky, given the rarity of such a bad season it would MOST LIKELY be more than just bad luck. Of course that's all just speculation since we didn't actually go 0-16.

Which was kinda my point.
Well, your point has nothing to do with my point which was that THIS front office would be more likely to do better in the draft with the highest possible draft pick. And, that's a fact.
 
Well, your point has nothing to do with my point which was that THIS front office would be more likely to do better in the draft with the highest possible draft pick. And, that's a fact.

And as I said earlier I think your point is moot.

As always, it's been tons of fun talking in circles with you, OF. I'm calling it now before either of us redundantly repeats himself again redundanty.
 
Here's the problem with all this.....we're all arguing OldFan's statement but arguing the wrong point of it.

He says: "would be MORE LIKELY to draft well had their team finished with zero wins rather than five. That's a fact, not speculation."

Well, truth is, the statement that they would be "more likely to draft well" is indeed a fact. Will they ACTUALLY do better? Maybe not, so that part of the the intimation is indeed not factual.....but that's not what he's saying here. He's just saying that it is a fact that they'd be MORE LIKELY (but not guaranteed of) drafting better.

To that, I agree.

Presently, so far as I can discern, everybody seems to be arguing the wrong point.

Now, having gone and defended Oldfan for the first time ever, I'll go and take a gun to my head so that it never happens again.

Happy 2012, everybody!
 
Now, having said that.....having the 6th pick is great. Usually, but not always, good things come from that high a pick. Trade up, trade down.....whatever. I'm looking forward to seeing a new QB in there and another workhorse of a draft to get this team rebuilt the right way for a change. LOVED the draft pull from 2011......can't wait to see what we get from 2012 and what old news we can throw out. Oh, and let's not rule out a decent (and intelligent) free agent class. I can handle Luck and RG3 going elsewhere if we get a decent offensive lineman or 4 out of this....and then pick up someone like Matt Flynn to boot. Not a bad option, in my opinion.

Gonna be fun, gentlemen.
 
And as I said earlier I think your point is moot.
Henry, I sincerely admire your talent. One might write the unvarnished truth as carefully as a lawyer drawing up a contract and you could find a way to render it moot. You're one of a kind, Amigo.:)
 
Henry, I sincerely admire your talent. One might write the unvarnished truth as carefully as a lawyer drawing up a contract and you could find a way to render it moot. You're one of a kind, Amigo.:)

Hmmm ... how about "A coach that wins five games is MORE LIKELY to be better than a coach that wins zero."

Is that a fact? :)
 
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
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Extreme, I have to quibble with you on one statement. Draft position means nothing? That is no more correct than to say, as I have seen posted, that the "higher you pick the better you get...period" as if it were written in stone as an absolute truth. The draft carries with it a lot of uncertainty.
In a way, you're supporting my claim. I never said that all or most great players come from the later rounds, I'm just saying that no matter where you pick in the draft, it is the player you draft that will be responsible for his success, not his draft position.

I would be willing to bet that there are more QBs in the HOF or on their way that were not top 5 picks than there are that were top 5 picks. It proves position means nothing. Tony Romo was undrafted. Jeff George was the number 1 pick. It doesn't take any intricate breakdowns or analysis to see that fact alone shows what a crapshoot the draft is, and why position means nothing.

Are you more likely to get an elite player with a higher pick? Absolutely not. Every study that has ever been done on this shows there may be no more than a 3-5% edge toward better players being drafted in the 1st round. Since that is within the margin of error, it's a 50/50 chance that a 6th or 7th round pick will have just as good or better of a career than a 1st or 2nd round pick.

You know what drafting high gets you? Nothing more than a better shot at hype machines. Big school guys, who have proven more often than not to NOT be the ones worth getting. Remember when half of Redskins nation wanted to trade the future to get Bradford or Sanchez? Look how they've turned out. In fact, look at how most hyped QBs have turned out. Ryan Leaf is the easy example, but he's just one of many.

High position also gets people to gun for Heisman winners. Staubach, O.J., Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen, and Barry Sanders went on to be worth their weight in gold as Heisman winners when they joined the NFL. Then you have a few guys that did ok but didn't live up to the hype, then you had 70 or so who went to the NFL and were totally worthless. But idiots in their infinite wisdom still insist on drafting hype over production and talent, and going for big name in the lights athletes, instead of scouting too see where the best talent really is. Scouts don't go to small schools, and they often produce major talent. T.O. came from nowhere, and he is one of the greatest receivers to ever play, and would have destroyed Rice's records had he not been a head case.

Is it more likely that a higher round QB will wind up having a better career than a lower round pick? There is evidence that this is the case-the question is not whether it does but to what extent it does.
There is absolutely no evidence of this. Look at a list of HOF QBs and tell me how many were high draft picks. The results will astonish you.

There are currently 29 QBs in the HOF. 12 were first round picks. Out of the other 17, 6 were undrafted and all but one were 3rd round or later. Since people put so much stock in first round picks, there should be more first rounders than low rounders in the HOF. The fact there isn't shows just how unimportant draft position is.

The draft is a crap shoot
I agree, that's why draft position means nothing :D
 
...Now, having gone and defended Oldfan for the first time ever, I'll go and take a gun to my head so that it never happens again.
You know, LSF. If you continue to develop that trait you displayed here -- the ability to read and comprehend -- you might find yourself agreeing with me more often. :cool4:
 
The draft is not a crap shoot. Drafting is more like hitting a baseball. It's a game of skill with a high degree of difficulty.

Some teams have higher batting averages than others.

Some teams collect draft picks so that they get more times at bat.

Collectively, teams hit for a higher average on the number one picks than they do on their number two. And higher on the number two than on their number three, and so on. When studies seem to contradict this, it is probably because the study was compiled on a sample too small to be statistically significant.

Uncertainty in the draft is not a sound argument against it. Nothing is ever certain. Good decisions increase the likelihood (Probability) of success.
 
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the entire argument is funny, its common sense that even if we have a higher pick, we still need to make informed, well researched picks to get the best player possible and its no guarantee, but its also common sense that the higher you pick, not only are you more likley to get the guy YOU want but that the other teams who do the same due diiligence wont get him first.
 

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