A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

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  1. #1
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    Default This team can't even lose right

    This win, which may be the most useless win in franchise history, may very well have cost us a shot at one of this years QB's. So now what? We trade to move up and give up some picks? Stupid, stupid, stupid
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    I have been open in that I don't see any benefit to winning when we desperately need a franchise QB - and in fact, would have been fine with a 'game' effort and last minute loss yesterday.

    But short of the coaching staff actually telling guys to lie down (which let's be honest, is problematic in so many ways, I just don't believe that would ever happen, nor should) I'm not sure how the Redskins accomplish losing out.

    Maybe they thought starting Rex would be more than enough

    I've said all along - the dilemma the Redskins have had for 20 years is never sucking sufficiently enough to get that top tier pick. We talk all the time about how 'there's no guarantee you'll get a sure-fire franchise QB with a top 5 pick'. That may be true, but that's not why we say it. We say it because we know we're not going to have one of the top 5 picks. It's called rationalization.

    If I had more confidence in our ability to find a mid-to-late first round gem at QB, I might feel differently. If I didn't think the Redskins were destined to continue to have some of the worst karma going, I might feel differently. As things stand, we've screwed around with QB selections at the end of the 1st round twice now (with Ramsey, then JC) and it hasn't panned out. I think at some point, you have to do whatever it takes to get a sure-fire NFL franchise QB. And I do mean whatever. Winning meaningless games will just solidify that need, because we aren't going to have a top 5 first round pick on merit alone.
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    Just not buying that argument Boone. Ramsey was beaten into a shell of a QB by a terrible coaching philosophy. Not saying he could have been better, but he was never given the chance. As for JC, well I do agree that Gibbs reached with him. Poor choice, but Aaron Rodgers was taken one pick before him so a late round pick is an option for a franchise QB. Heath Shuler is at the opposite end of draft order and he sucked worse that the other 2. In fact of the 3 QB's the Redskins picked up the year we chose Shuler, Trent Green was the only franchise QB and he was a late round choice.

    I was looking at Goal's numbers yesterday thinking, there were a number of franchise QB's on that list. But only one on his list who was chosen in the top 5 has won a Super Bowl. And the only reason Eli won it was because of that defense. Without that defense they were never there!

    It does not matter if you pick 1st or 8th, you have to pick correctly. Problem is, there is a Tony Mandarich around every corner!
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

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    Wow - that's a surprising position to take Ele...I never saw anything from Ramsey that lead me to believe he could be a starting long-term solution at QB. Joe Gibbs took a long, extended look at Ramsey and decided the same thing. He was a nice young man - with all the hardwork, dedication, unselfishness you could ask for, but he wasn't an NFL starter.

    I already addressed that, yes, OTHER TEAMS are capable of finding franchise QBs outside of top 10 draft spots, but I have zero confidence that the Redskins can do so. Pulling out the Heath Shuler example is fine - but all that does is demonstrate the Redskins can't find a franchise QB no matter where they look for one

    There is no foolproof method for identifying 'sure fire' future HOFers no matter what the college resume, tangibles, and hype. But surely you're not arguing that the Redskins chances of finding a gem increase as their draft position drops? I don't think you'd make that argument, and that's really all I'm saying. Besides - draft position (IMHO) is less about high picks guaranteeing you a franchise guy, and more about being able to draft the guy you BELIEVE is going to be that franchise guy. I think that's what happened last draft - but we don't have the luxury this upcoming draft of waiting because the guy we really want and need is not available at our draft position. We have to find a QB.

    I'd prefer getting our choice over taking whoever's left over.
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    I can't root for losses, I'm just not built that way... besides, would you trade number one over all pick Jeff George for Dan Marino, or Aaron Rogers for David Carr? Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, etc. for Joe Montana, Tom Brady, or Big Ben?

    Truth is, I'm glad to see Helu get a hundred in his first start. I'm glad to see Perry progressing and Hurt playing decently. If we win because the young 'uns like Davis are getting their chance and beginning to shine... that's not a useless win. That's progress.

    More, that mythical qb may still find his way to Washington and we are very likely to lose again

    Rooting for failure is just antithetical to my spirit... esp. rooting for failure in hopes of a complete unknown.
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    James Madison

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    Yeah, I'm with Burgold. I understand the people who want the higher draft picks, but I can't bring myself to root for it. To me, if we win more games from here on out, as a result of the line improving and playing better, especially Hurt and TWill, or Helu having big games, or Riley and Gomes making plays on defense, then how is that a bad thing? If we have to sacrifice a few draft picks to trade up and get a QB stud, maybe his supporting cast will be up to the challenge a little bit more with the playing time and experience.

    On a side note, I said this a couple of times in chat yesterday, but this is a different offense with Santana. We should have all known Shanny wouldn't tank the season anyway, but not IR'ing Santana was a dead giveaway that wasn't happening. I think you will see our offense continue to improve as the rest of the season goes on. I hope Austin can improve with it, he's the one kid that hasn't impressed me much this year.
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    Air Force

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    Yeah, I'm with Burgold. I understand the people who want the higher draft picks, but I can't bring myself to root for it.
    Why not? What's the big deal? We're not going anywhere. Ohhhhhhhhhh, so we're going ot be 4-12 instead of 3-13. Big friggin whoop.

    Like everyone says, it's nice to see the kids develope, but otherwise we're just hurting ourselves with a win
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    I think the kids developing were the reason we won, Sarge. Hurt played reasonably well, what if we find a starter or even just depth in the 7th round? Helu looks like a legit back, something I doubted until yesterday. Riley made some key stops. If the kids continue to play well and we win because of it, what then?

    Do you really want Shanahan to tell the kids to stop playing so well?
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    I don't want the team playing for draft picks. I prefer wins to draft position. I would like to see a string of victories down the stretch.

    Even if we draft a QB high in the draft, are we going to throw him to the wolves or have a veteran to show him the ropes?
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    "Losers", like "Birthers" believe in the Tooth Fairy.

    There is no proof that picking top ten QB's produces any meaningful advantage over picking everywhere else. It's pie in the sky BS.

    Everybody on this team who will be here for the coming years benefits from winning now. I've never understood how a "fan" can root for his team to win, some of the time.
    Last edited by Ax; 11-28-11 at 10:29 AM.
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    Michigan State

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    You can't make some people happy. Bitch when they lose, bitch when they win.
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    Face piles of trials with smiles. It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.

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    We've seen in the past that Shanahan will not hesitate to move up and grab the QB he wants - he traded up to 11 to grab Jay Cutler. If he has an eye on a particular QB in this draft class, and I'm betting he already does, he will draft him if its at all humanly possible.

    Ramsey was garbage. Garbage! Did he get sacked a lot? Yes...because he couldn't read the field and held onto the ball too long. But he is irrelevant - nobody that selected Ramsey is still around and making decisions (hopefully), so its a moot point.
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    If this front office knows what it's doing, drafting low won't matter.

    If this front office doesn't know what it's doing, drafting high won't matter.

    Either way, we may as well win the games in front of us. Worry about the offseason in the offseason.

    I've said all along - the dilemma the Redskins have had for 20 years is never sucking sufficiently enough to get that top tier pick. We talk all the time about how 'there's no guarantee you'll get a sure-fire franchise QB with a top 5 pick'. That may be true, but that's not why we say it. We say it because we know we're not going to have one of the top 5 picks. It's called rationalization.

    If I had more confidence in our ability to find a mid-to-late first round gem at QB, I might feel differently. If I didn't think the Redskins were destined to continue to have some of the worst karma going, I might feel differently. As things stand, we've screwed around with QB selections at the end of the 1st round twice now (with Ramsey, then JC) and it hasn't panned out. I think at some point, you have to do whatever it takes to get a sure-fire NFL franchise QB. And I do mean whatever. Winning meaningless games will just solidify that need, because we aren't going to have a top 5 first round pick on merit alone.
    Boone, is this the same Redskin team that drafted Ramsey and Campbell?

    For what it's worth, we've had a top ten draft pick four times over the past eight seasons. Two of those have been in the top five. Karma hasn't been our problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Why not? What's the big deal? We're not going anywhere. Ohhhhhhhhhh, so we're going ot be 4-12 instead of 3-13. Big friggin whoop.
    Exactly, so why not go 4-12 instead of 3-13?

    I disagree that losing 12 straight games is no big deal. It's a huge deal. It's such a big deal that the Redskins, as terrible as they've been over the past 20 years, have never done it before. I'd rather not take a chance that this team, this front office, this owner, can shrug off such unprecedented suckiness as easily as some of you can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    If this front office knows what it's doing, drafting low won't matter.

    If this front office doesn't know what it's doing, drafting high won't matter.

    Either way, we may as well win the games in front of us. Worry about the offseason in the offseason.
    Hear here!

    As undeniably logical, and factual, as it gets.
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    Let's look at who is "ahead" of us in the standings, to get higher draft picks:

    Seattle: Probably would pick a QB
    Arizona: Hard to say, but they just paid Kolb a LOT of money.
    Tampa: Have Freeman, not gonna draft a QB
    Carolina: Have Newton, not gonna draft a QB
    Minnesota: Have Ponder, probably won't draft a QB, unless his play falls off a cliff
    St. Louis: Have Bradford, paying him a TON of money, can't imagine they draft a QB
    Cleveland: Probably will draft a QB
    KC: Probably will draft a Qb, though Scott Pioli believes he is smarter than anyone else, may wait to find his Tom Brady
    San Diego: Have Rivers, no chance they draft a QB
    Jax: Just drafted Gabbert, not working well, but very doubtful they give up on him after one year.
    Miami: Henne looked real good before his injury, if they have overwhelming positions of need elsewhere, they may wait.
    Indy: A lock for Luck at this point.

    That's five teams, six with us, that are probably going to be looking for a QB in the first round, though things can certainly change (and I am not sold on Miami going for a QB, nor am I sold on Ari NOT drafting one, so they even out in my book). We won't end up with Luck. We may not get Griffin. But there are 5 good QB prospects this year, and the odds that we don't end up with one of them appear quite small to me. It will take a boatload to move up for Luck, though with Griffin's play of late, he may take some of the shine off Luck and drop that price a little. Moving up to get either of them will cost a lot, but Shanahan has proven before he will do what it takes. And if he prefers Tannehill, Barkley or Jones? The price won't be nearly as steep, and one of them may be available when we pick anyway.
    Last edited by Goaldeje; 11-28-11 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Clarification
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    Cleveland, KC and AZ are big maybes. And I'd move Miami to the maybe column as well. I wouldn't bank on more than two of those teams really making a move for a QB. I seriously doubt AZ will give up on Kolb after one year, and Cassell is just one year removed from a pro-bowl season. If I had to guess (and that's all we can do at this point) I'd say Indy, Seattle, Miami and maybe Cleveland are who we have to worry about, and I'm guessing Miami and Seattle will finish with a better record than us. If there are five quality QB prospects in this draft, we'll get one.
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    Agreed. Griffin's ascension over the next couple of months is going to make things interesting I think. I have heard some say he may surpass Luck, which seems doubtful to me, though possible. If that happens...
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    Marine Corps Virginia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    If this front office knows what it's doing, drafting low won't matter.

    If this front office doesn't know what it's doing, drafting high won't matter.
    Generally, I love that logic - except it belies my central point. The higher we draft, the more control we have over WHO is available. That's not the same argument that drafting high = surefire franchise QB. But the truth is, we need a QB and it's highly probable the guys Shanahan and Allen favor are the same guys nearly every other front office favor. More than ever, it's a passing league and a QB-driven league, and lots of teams need one.

    So to your point - if one assumes we 'know what we're doing' (and I grant you I have more confidence in this front office than previous ones) - it may not matter if we drop far enough down, because guys worthy of spending that pick are no longer available.

    Ultimately it's a moot point - as we can't and won't 'tank', nor would I want us to. But we WILL be in the same predicament as usual, just average enough to not get a crack at one of the top 3 QBs.

    And we'll spend the next 3 seasons bitching about how we still don't have a franchise QB.
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    Boone, who are your top 3 QBs?
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    Boone, if this team somehow wins 7 or 8 games (which would mean either a 4-2 or 5-1 finish) do you think we will be 'in the same predicament' as previous 7- or 8-win Redskin teams?

    I would say that, considering the way this team is being built, the lower we draft the better the team actually is, and the more likely it is we could afford to trade up to get a QB and still be able to field a competitive team going forward.

    Unlike pretty much every previous year since the dawn of the new millenium, we've got nine picks going into this upcoming draft. If we want to move up we can afford it.
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