A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

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  1. #1
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    Default Building a superbowl winner requires what?

    I firmly believe we are not building this team correctly, we have seen improvement simply in that we are at least getting younger and adding some quality youth, but we continue to ignore the Oline, we took some fliers on receivers and are sorting through garbage at QB and Oline. We spent a lot of resources on defence, resources that didnt need to be spent there until a very poor decision was made, why so poor? look at our offence, something that has been bad since gibbs left the first time, we had one decent season under Norval, but other than that we have looked inept on the O side.

    This team since gibbs one hasnt built correctly, we draft safeties, we ignored the lines forever so from here on out the next couple seasons, we need to concentrate on two things Gamebreaking talent and Oline, period, I hedge my bets by saying gamebreaking talent, because if its available, you have to take it, but you have got to have a foundation first, and any teams offence all starts with the Oline. You can scheme around it somewhat, but you will never be a superbowl calibre team without a solid Oline, you can win without a dominant one (steelers, cardinals, colts a few seasons ago) if you have an elite QB and playmakers, but if you dont you NEED TO HAVE A VERY COHESIVE SOLID FRONT 5 ON OFFENCE. we wont be getting Luck, or probably any other elite QB unless we luck into a brady (which is rare), so we need to build around an Oline.

    we keep getting these mirages, some fast starts followed by steep drops, some guys playing above their heads, and we as fans buy in and then the bye week comes and we come back to reality. some holes are just too deep. for us to seriously contend, this ignoring of the Oline has got to stop. you know we are hurting when Lick going out is a disaster for us, ffs when a street free agent or a 7th round guy is one of your top linemen you are in deep trouble.

    Boone was right you know, Grossman with decent protection = solid qb who gives you a punchers chance to win. but as we have seen, Gross with JV pass protection?=gross.

    The Ravens as people seem to forget, used to be the browns, who were inept for decades too, but then they slowly built a foundation, they drafted a lot of linemen, they drafted linebackers, they made smart moves and stayed well under the cap, then once they had a young foundation mixed with vet talent, they spent on free agents and made a run at the superbowl and after winning still stayed solid, and they won with a superlative Oline, great running game, and journeyman QB with a great defence. its easier to do that than wait for a frachise qb. plus that way we dont need to suck for another decade
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    Until this year I would have agreed with you, Ryman, but I think we are on the right track now.

    I agree that you have to work on the foundation first and that the foundation is the lines, both offensive and defensive. While we did not go with any offensive lineman this year, we did go with defense. I count Kerrigan as nearly a lineman on the defense due him being more responsible for rushing the passer than anything else and Jenkins is a true defensive lineman, so that is the first two picks in this year's draft spent lineman. I can only assume that Allen and Shanahan had these guys rated higher than any offensive linemen available when they got on the clock and I have to say that so far I consider both picks to be good ones.

    And frankly, I disagree that we didn't need to do something serious with the defense (although this is an old argument). Our defense was mirage and getting old. It needed the attention it got and would have needed it whether the switch to the 3-4 happened or not.

    We spent the first pick in 2010 on Trent Williams, who has been solid if not spectacular at LT. I can't really say any other linemen in his class is really rocking the world either.

    So there are our top 3 picks from the last two years spent on "foundation".

    I don't agree on the receivers though. I think you can get by without rock stars in the WR positions. Granted, if you are in position to take a Calvin Johnson or an Andre Johnson then you do, obviously, but if you look at recent Super Bowl winners you don't see a lot of super stars at those positions. Do you consider Santonio Holmes, Marcus Colston or Greg Jennings to be in that game breaker receiver mold? Then look at New England's back to back SB wins early in the decade...solid receiving corps but not spectacular in any way, shape or form.

    No, I think the team has the right approach now. Granted, it will take another year or maybe two for us to be sure that they really are committed to this whole build through the draft thing. And they certainly need to continue to focus the upper picks on the lines unless there is someone present who is a game changer which isn't real likely where we will likely be picking.
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    Agree with Neo on pretty much all accounts, this team is heading in the right direction. The main problem as I see it is that the Shanahans aren't giving the youngsters playing time. I believe BT is the biggest proponent of this: take your lumps with the kids, and see what you got. In all honesty, how do we *really* know (outside of message board speculation) if we're heading in the right direction, if we don't start a Brandyn Thompson, a Terrence Austin, a Niles Paul?

    I also disagree that we've been ignoring the lines - that's just how Shanahan does business. The types of OL he likes are often available in the late-rounds, and in FA. I'm pretty excited to see how Hurt does, as I assume he's going to get some serious PT. Yeah, I've heard he's flabby and weak and all that, but those were the same things being parroted about Jarvis Jenkins when there was all kinds of talk about how we "reached" for him.
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    I've been saying we need to address the O line for 10 years. Maybe it'll finally happen........................................next year
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    Default

    The foundation is QB, LT, WR, DE, and CB.

    You can fill in at some of the other positions with solid performers, but you need better than average talents and performers at these key spots.

    Notice the Redskins have not had a franchise qb in a long time. Been a long time since Washington had a wide receiver that was a top 10 performer.

    OT - the Redskins had Chris Samuels, but the prime years of his career were spent on a club that didn't have any of the other building blocks

    Pass rushing DE? The Redskins have only recently started to rebuild their pass rush with Orakpo and Kerrigan.

    Secondary? Unconventionally, the Redskins spent top 6 picks on Sean Taylor and Laron Landry at safety but were left with guys like Carlos Rogers, an older Shawn Springs and others at the key corner spots where a Asomugha or Revis would have made a real difference late in games.

    Remember all those balls that Rogers dropped that could have ended games in the Redskins favor late?

    Remember all those long drives for winning scores by the opposition through the air?
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    BT, you're alluding to something I've been thinking about for a while.

    I think that fans have been underestimating just how talent-poor in relation to the rest of the league the Redskins have been-and this is for something like 15 years. We've had our Sean Taylors, Chris Samuels, Clinton Portises, London Fletchers, and similar others of course, but I was wondering the other day-how many teams, going position-by-position actually envy the Redskins-or have envied them in recent history enough to say "I'd swap our guy at that spot for the Redskins guy at that spot right now". I'd almost be willing to bet that over the last fifteen years less than half, no, make that less than a third of the teams in the NFL would trade the Redskins even-up for more than three or four players on each side of the ball-especially OL and DL. In recent years-this season it's finally getting better, I have watched the Skins play and thought the other team just looked better, more athletic, speedier. Basically, what I'm getting at, is that the hole we're trying to climb out of in rebuilding the team is likely much deeper than fans would like to think and will take longer than we may like as a result.
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    I'm giving it a 2-4 year window. Looking for improvement in all areas. Redskins, you're on the clock.

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    Neo, the defence was not an issue despite a lot of revisionist history it wasnt great but it was the strength of a weak team, as someone was arguing about this last game, a decent defence will win games if you can score, and frankly our defence was solid, it just wasnt a game changer (and neither is this defence frankly) creating holes where there werent any was one of the dumbest things I have ever seen. Yes it was gonna need a few players but not a complete revamp. I agree that on defence your line is the foundation and I even agree in a 3-4 that your Lbs are included, lol .

    we KNEW the Oline was brutal, we KNEW the receivers were bad, and we KNEW we had no depth at RB. what did we do to fix those areas? we drafted a couple Rbs and made one trade for a decent guy I guess we will see.... we drafted some projects at WR (im willing to give them a year to develop.) but we did little or nothing for the Oline, whether guys like Lanky think so or not, the later rounds dont give up much talent anymore, and you damn sure cant field a full 5 of udfa and late round picks. if you do, you end up with an Oline like ours. a bad oline can make a good QB look average, it makes an average qb look bad, conversely a good Oline can make an average QB look great. the same for running backs. name me one very good team that didnt have a solid Oline (even the steelers had a decent one).

    what I am saying is that we need to build the foundation FIRST. not piece it together as we fix things slowly. we cant fix things slowly, not with 50% turnover on the roster no excuses. we need to take risks playerwise. the truth is that this is year 2 not year one, so we are in fact well behind where we should be in the second year of a rebuild. there are two truths that need to be acknowledged, one is that young players get better (in general) and old players fade, so in that, I agree we are in a better spot that way at least. We need to play the young guys not just sit them, we need to start scouring practice rosters for young players who have upside. this JUST GOOD ENOUGH TO BARELY LOSE, isnt gonna cut it anymore.

    Im watching things like the transition to a 3-4 by the texans, who showed the right way to do it (pre injuries) Im watching the resurgence of some poor teams and the fall apart of some average to poor teams (the dolphins) and a decent team who lost its best player (the colts) and im getting annoyed.

    Im not willing to give them 2 more years to be frank, I will have trouble giving them even one more year, as much as people preach patience, they are wrong, we were patient with Norval, I am preaching accountability. if thios offence doesnt improve by the end of the year, I say turf little shanny, and if the defence doesnt improve, I am saying turf haslett, if the specials dont improve and as usual get worse? turf smith. Shanny lost carte blanche when we had the first 3-4 debacle and then the Mcrapp debacle. both of which set us back.
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    BT my position on our oline is not popular, I have always said that our Oline was overrated, Jansen was solid for a couple seasons early on but really relied on his rep after his achilles injury I loved the guy he was tough as nails but the year he played with two broken thumbs he was done. Samuels was never as good as his press, he had trouble against speed rushers and was a far better run than pass blocker (not an elite lt trait). we often had at least one good guard Tre, for a season or two was dominant, and JOhnson for a couple seasons was awesome, but we never had even a solid center. our Oline was all about reputation because on the field, they simply werent very good.

    I think that the core of any team is its lines and then its QB then you need skill players who can make plays, but I would say it goes wr rb cb lb s
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rymanofthenorth View Post
    BT my position on our oline is not popular, I have always said that our Oline was overrated, Jansen was solid for a couple seasons early on but really relied on his rep after his achilles injury I loved the guy he was tough as nails but the year he played with two broken thumbs he was done.
    That was the general consensus, as far as I remember. He was never the same after the achilles injury. The only good thing about the two broken thumbs were the Casey Rabach practical jokes.

    Samuels was never as good as his press, he had trouble against speed rushers and was a far better run than pass blocker (not an elite lt trait).
    I have to disagree here; Samuels was always near the top of the rankings in terms of sacks allowed, and did a good job against most of the elite pass-rushers in our division.

    we often had at least one good guard Tre, for a season or two was dominant, and JOhnson for a couple seasons was awesome, but we never had even a solid center. our Oline was all about reputation because on the field, they simply werent very good.
    Agree here - Tre Johnson had one season that he could not be stopped. Then it just kinda went downhill for some reason. I do that think Dock & Thomas were dominant for a couple years together.
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    Considering we've had a 90% turnover in personnel, i can't blame Allen or Shanahan at all. They get a A+ from me. My only criticism is it looks like will be going into year 3 with still a big question mark at QB.

    I really don't think we need any "Big time" playmakers. Maybe i'm in the minority, but i think we're in the best position at Rb and Wr that we've been in 20 years, plus we may have the 2 best pass rushers since Manley and Mann.
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    Yes you have to build around the lines, but for a Superbowl winner you need a lot of things, not the least of which is a good QB. Something we haven't had in ages.

    But winning a Superbowl isn't easy or anyone could do it. There are also various intangible factors required including chemistry, luck, timing, injuries (and don't give me that Green Bay crap, without Rodgers they would have gone nowhere last year).
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    Agree with you, China.

    See: Colts minus Manning
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    Quote Originally Posted by China View Post
    Yes you have to build around the lines, but for a Superbowl winner you need a lot of things, not the least of which is a good QB. Something we haven't had in ages.

    But winning a Superbowl isn't easy or anyone could do it. There are also various intangible factors required including chemistry, luck, timing, injuries (and don't give me that Green Bay crap, without Rodgers they would have gone nowhere last year).

    I agree, however I would also say that several teams have won a superbowl without an elite QB, the 85 bears and the Ravens a few years ago come to mind. Warner with the Cards got there, and he was pretty much done when the Cards grabbed him as a street free agent.

    Ive tried to see if any superbowl winner ever had a bad oline sans injuries, but the steelers were the closest thing and they had some serious injuries that year.

    the colts are a team that has allowed the offence to deteriorate for a few seasons, and had some poor picks, they tried to rejuvenate their oline but had a bad run of picks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Deep View Post
    Considering we've had a 90% turnover in personnel, i can't blame Allen or Shanahan at all. They get a A+ from me. My only criticism is it looks like will be going into year 3 with still a big question mark at QB.

    I really don't think we need any "Big time" playmakers. Maybe i'm in the minority, but i think we're in the best position at Rb and Wr that we've been in 20 years, plus we may have the 2 best pass rushers since Manley and Mann.

    I disagree with your first paragraph, and somewhat agree with your second. the 90% turnover (i think its closer to 65% which is still crazy lol) directly related to shannallen, and im not sure yet if its good bad or in between, im hoping we continue the trend this year and get even younger. but time will tell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rymanofthenorth View Post
    I disagree with your first paragraph, and somewhat agree with your second. the 90% turnover (i think its closer to 65% which is still crazy lol) directly related to shannallen, and im not sure yet if its good bad or in between, im hoping we continue the trend this year and get even younger. but time will tell.
    The turnover is directly related to fixing Vinny Cerrato's mess, actually. The high turnover is a necessity, and probably won't slow down any time soon. I expect another 10-12 draft picks in 2013, most of whom will make the roster. Gone will be Stallworth, Sellers, etc. Basically we have a lot of placeholders right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    The turnover is directly related to fixing Vinny Cerrato's mess, actually. The high turnover is a necessity, and probably won't slow down any time soon. I expect another 10-12 draft picks in 2013, most of whom will make the roster. Gone will be Stallworth, Sellers, etc. Basically we have a lot of placeholders right now.
    I agree we have too many placeholders, but shanallen and the switch meant getting rid of several guys who we didnt need to, the saddest one was Andre Carter, who I beleieve has more football left in him, Jarmon was affected by gaining and losing weight and others from switching positions. you dont coach in a vacuum, other teams have managed to incorporate players from previous regimes, you cant convince me that shanny needed all new players to even be decent lol, if that was the case, he really overestimated his coaching ability in year one.
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    despite the poor first year, I don't think anyone can criticize the improvement of the defense in Year 2 with some outstanding pickups in free agency and the draft. Things should improve even more when Jenkins makes it back at DE.

    that said, my major bone of contention is that we spent picks on WR after having a very mediocre group in 2010 and it appears that NONE of the WRs we selected is good enough to even be active as the #4.

    of course this is subjective too. I see Stallworth at 31 and Gaffney at 30 dropping balls and wonder whether we are just retarding the development of Hankerson and Paul by not taking the plunge with them now.
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    I always thought andre Carter was a tad bit over rated for what they were paying him only really started producing his third year here
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    The following entry is borrowed from my local paper which featured an article today about the Dolphins struggles-

    A few days after he left the Dolphins, Nick Saban invited a few South Florida writers into his new office at the University of Alabama. He was asked where it went wrong, and he gave the simplest of answers.

    "In the NFL, you first need a quarterback", he said. "Then you need to surround that quarterback with talent".
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    Quote Originally Posted by redskins26 View Post
    I always thought andre Carter was a tad bit over rated for what they were paying him only really started producing his third year here
    I agree, it took him a long time to recover from trying to be a 3-4 olb in san fran, but we got him fornothing and eventually he became pretty solid. also a character guy.
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