A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

Thanks Thanks:  0
Likes Likes:  0
Disagree Disagree:  0
Post of the Year Post of the Year:  0
Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    09-28-10
    Location
    BGO's Official Resident "Tech Dummy"
    Posts
    9,242
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)

    Default My Redskin brothers, whatever happened to the attitude of "Just shut up and play!" ??

    Before you come to the conclusion that this doesn't deserve it's own thread, let me explain that I feel it does, due to the fact that my opinions expressed here are more about Redskins' player's vocal tendencies in general, and not just Cooley's recent comments in specific. I'm just using his situation as a prime and recent example, of an all too often pattern of Redskin player overconfidence.
    I am surely in the minority here, but please hear me out, and read the whole lengthy post, before you pile on.

    While I can appreciate the principles upon which Chris Cooley and his fans defend his comments, and how I also admittedly share an affection for his lovable charm, I personally feel it was still not the smart and appropriate thing to do, to vocalize it that way. It is too reminiscient of the damaging pattern of Redskin behaviour of Redskins' past.

    Just because you're right in principle, does not mean it's a smart thing to do, to vocalize it that way. This team is FAR from getting to the point of talking trash, whether or not they intended it to come across this way. You HAVE to take in consideration of how it appears to opponents teams/players.

    The reason is simply because he's really just providing bulletin board material and unnecessary motivation for Romo and the rest of his team the next time they face us. In that respect, Skip Bayless is right - that Cooley's words will probably come back to haunt him. At the same time, let me emphasize that's the ONLY thing Skip said that I agree with. Don't you guys realize that other teams are desperately SEARCHING for reasons to exact revenge on us, their opponent, rather than just "give us the benefit of the doubt" anytime our players make controversial and questionable statements ??? Sorry, but I totally do NOT buy into the belief of one BGO fan's assessment that Romo will just say "Awww, that's just Cooley being Cooley". Nope. Not gonna happen. Romo won't say that, and neither will his teammates. I believe just the opposite will happen.

    It's very similar to D-Hall's comments about going after Romo's ribs. Like some of the analysts said, there's not really anything wrong with having that attitude. But it's not a good idea to vocalize it, because it can really only have negative repercussions back on your team. And we saw proof of that theory that I share with the analysts - i.e. Romo, as a result, turned in a super gutsy performance that game, succeeded in staying in the game and avoiding aggravation of the injury, and also beat us. What potentially great thing will he do, the next time he plays us, in response to the most recent comments about him ? A similar outcome as the 1st Cowboy game, perhaps ? I'd venture to say, that the "other Romo" will show up, as opposed to the Choker.

    That's the problem with the Redskins (AND their fans I might add). They are too quick to get overconfident. Give them a bit of a winning streak or winning record, and all of a sudden most of the team and fans suddenly think they are the bad asses of the league. (How recent it was, before the season started that the majority of fans actually believed we were awful enough to be in the running for the "Luck Draft Sweepstakes" - now look how attitudes have changed 180 degrees after just 4 games, and 4 close games at that. Super Bowl talk even, to boot.) I really wish they would just STFU and just play at this point. 4 games into the season is NO time to talk trash, ESPECIALLY with the Redskins history.

    A 3-1 record can EASILY and QUICKLY turn into a 3-7 record, and eventual elimination from the playoffs. All you have to do is look at the Redskins' history and tendency over the last 20 years to validate that point. So, as some fans have expressed in times past, I think it's time to reiterate to our players the point of "Just shut up and play".

    I'm tired of hearing the players talk about "swagger". That's bull ****. I don't care about the sassy way you move around and talk and feel. It's how you PERFORM. And you need to perform at a HIGH level, for an EXTENDED and CONSISTENT period of time before you're entitled to talk trash, and again I emphasize again, whether your trash talking is joking or not, as Cooley claims. The APPEARANCE of talking trash is not acceptable either, for reasons already expressed - both the effect it has on boosting the other team's performance, and actually lowering your own performance.

    I'm sure many will disagree with me here, and perhaps vehemently, but I pledge to you, that if this kind of attitude continues, we will see a drastic negative turnaround in our record. Yes, we're 3-1. But barely. (With those close games, we could easily have a much worse record) AND...it's early. 12 more games can easily change everything.

    Yes, I'm sure I'll be pointed out as the perfect example of Destino's highly esteemed thread about fan's attitude. But I'm not so much judging the team's performance, as I am their dangerous attitude about it, from Santana's to Hightower's, to Grossman's, to Deangelo's to Cooley's attitude, (which is really different from what Des was referring to.)

    So I'll end this the way I started it - Skins players : I love you guys all of you, but PLEASE, basically just "shut up and play" And same to the fans to please have that attitude

    This is not a doom and gloom prediction that the Skins season will end once again in a disappointing losing record, and/or playoff elimination. But if the aforementioned attitudes continue, then I believe that outcome is very likely.

    Tact, my friends.

    Sure, you can hate your opponent, and even verbalize that. But draw the line at disrespect. Rather, show them SOME respect, no matter how much you hate them. That, or say nothing at all. You can hate them and respect them at the same time. This is in fact, crucial AND healthy. Simply recall the very effective mind games Gibb's used to play against his opponents prior to the games, the way he would totally glorify the other team in every way, no matter how awful the opponent was, as opposed to talking trash. And it worked. How could those teams possibly have gotten motivated to play harder after hearing Gibbs glorify them in that way ?

    Nobody liked it when Michael Westbrook or Santana Moss celebrated after every first down gain (even if we were losing). And this really isn't much different. Yes, we have a winning record - but celebration is far too premature.

    As I said in the other thread, "Yes, Romo is a choker". But at the same time, he is just as likely to come back and haunt you for inappropriate comments the next time he plays. We all know he's a yo-yo. He can be just as great as he can be bad. Let's not give him more of a reason to play to his great side.

    Now, I will stand by my assessment, but of course, at the same time, will own up and eat crow if I am wrong. If we end up beating the Cowboys in game 2 of our 2011 series, then by all means, feel free to bump this thread, and serve me crow. On the other hand, if we lose, give me credit where it's due. Of course, I am NOT HOPING we lose. Just warning against it.
    Last edited by Fear The Spear; 10-09-11 at 06:26 AM.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  2. #2

    2016 BGO FF Champion
    Ugly American

    Join Date
    07-22-09
    Location
    My location
    Posts
    6,929
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    34 Post(s)

    Default

    Sorry, didn't read the whole post, but didn't feel it necessary to answer the question.

    What happened to "Just shut up and play" is 24 hour sports coverage, and a starving media machine, constantly on the lookout for all too willing attention whores to help them fill the airwaves and print.

    All of our hero's of the past would have been no different, had the opportunities existing then, like they do now. John Riggins was Clinton Portis before Clinton was.

    And, it happens in every city, for every team, not just here. Can't get this Genie back in the bottle. I don't like it either. But, it's an entertainment business, and like it or not, it's all entertaining.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    "Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and **** the prom queen"

  3. #3
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    09-28-10
    Location
    BGO's Official Resident "Tech Dummy"
    Posts
    9,242
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ax View Post
    And, it happens in every city, for every team, not just here. Can't get this Genie back in the bottle. I don't like it either. But, it's an entertainment business, and like it or not, it's all entertaining.
    Yes, it's entertaining, but at what cost ?
    At the realistic cost of losing games as a result ?
    Not worth it.
    Just because the media begs for entertainment and attention whores, that means our players have to cater to them ?
    No - self control is in order, instead of excuses, and blaming the media. You (the players) can choose not to yield. It's the players' choice, not the media's.
    Winning games is more important than this "entertainment" aspect you speak of.
    And if you read my entire post, you'll see how this "entertainment" does directly correlate with "losing games".
    So please kindly read my entire original post when you have the time, and respond again.
    Last edited by Fear The Spear; 10-09-11 at 07:19 AM.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  4. #4

    2016 BGO FF Champion
    Ugly American

    Join Date
    07-22-09
    Location
    My location
    Posts
    6,929
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    34 Post(s)

    Default

    Trash doesn't win/lose games.


    Edit: Read the whole post
    Last edited by Ax; 10-09-11 at 07:44 AM.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    "Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and **** the prom queen"

  5. #5
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-16-11
    Posts
    1,024
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    My problem with it is simple. If you talk you better back it up. We have had a history from Michael Westbrook and Albert Connell to today of people barking off the field and tucking tail on it. This team hasn't yet earned the right to woof about someone else. I don't mind us speaking well of ourselves.

    Rex Grossman says he believes our receivers are the best = great
    Hightower saying he believes we can make it to the Superbowl = fantastic

    Player speaking down on another team = ??? Just because we haven't earned enough to look down on anybody. Almost every team can point upwards and say, "Scoreboard or Record" Confidence is great. Braggadicio ain't.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  6. #6

    Join Date
    04-11-09
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    17,848
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Blog Entries
    94
    Marine Corps Virginia

    Default

    I absolutely understand your point Fear, and I'm more of a 'shut up and play' kind of a guy generally. Only thought I'd add though it that I'm tired of being 'afraid'. Redskins fans are like Cameron in 'Ferris Bueller's Day Off' - we can't do much else other than cower and worry about what's going to bring down or doom our team this time.

    The reason I didn't mind Cooley's public thrashing of Romo (which, btw, I believe was mostly purely tongue-in-cheek stuff meant solely for the ears of Redskins fans) is that I want us to be unafraid. I want to be a good enough team that bulletin board material isn't enough to determine a game. I want us to be able to dominate the other guys, to be better prepared, and have 'the will' to win, one that we can impose on our opponent, not matter what trash talk has gone on.

    When you or your team worries that it will be post-'trash talk' motivation that determines the outcome of an NFL game, all that tells me is, you and your team aren't very good.

    I'm tired of being 'that guy' and rooting for 'those guys'. A little swagger and brashness might not be a bad thing. You have to start believing you can back it all up at some point.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Subscribe to our BGO Mailing List

    You ain't bonafide

  7. #7

    2016 BGO FF Champion
    Ugly American

    Join Date
    07-22-09
    Location
    My location
    Posts
    6,929
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    34 Post(s)

    Default

    Well said Boone.

    I might also add, Joe Namath provided the ultimate bulletin board material, for the biggest game there is. It gave the Colts all the incentive in the world to smack down those young punks.

    How'd that work out?
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    "Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and **** the prom queen"

  8. #8

    Join Date
    06-30-09
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    3,569
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Indiana

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    When you or your team worries that it will be post-'trash talk' motivation that determines the outcome of an NFL game, all that tells me is, you and your team aren't very good.
    .
    +1.

    Throughout history warriors have "talked themselves up" for combat-stoking emotions to a level at which their own emotional response affects their physical prowess and ability in battle. Often this includes belittling the enemy which in turn lowers the influence fear has in causing hesitation and doubt-both of which can deteriorate physical performance in the heat of battle.

    Talking smack-swagger, if you will-doesn't bother me very much especially when the team now is showing more aggression and athletic ability than I have seen in a while and winning games because of it. The only time such talk bothers me is when there is no apparent basis for it, as has been mentioned "empty braggadocio." Had this kind of thing happened in 2009, say, I would have simply shaken my head in dismay with a touch of sadness. Not now.

    The question of "karma"? Well, personally I see "karma" as a psychological phenomenon that can only affect someone if they believe it can-but that's up to them. For me it doesn't exist.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    I'm giving it a 2-4 year window. Looking for improvement in all areas. Redskins, you're on the clock.

  9. #9
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    04-01-11
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Posts
    4,738
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Blog Entries
    3
    Army

    Default

    Trash talk is a part of the game. Although I believe in being more like Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders, and just letting your game talk for you, there is no problem with it.

    Tony Romo is a choker, plain and simple. The "other Tony" you mention, only exists in the land of make believe, because he has never showed up for a real game.

    A lot of players have proven numerous times that running their mouth can work, and get into the heads of their opponents. A perfect example being the Jets last year before they faced the Patriots in the playoffs. New England took the cocky as hell we know we're better than you approach, and the Jets took the we're going to kick the living **** out of you approach. Like it did for the Raiders of the 70s and 80s, the approach the Jets took worked.

    The reason trash talking works, is because it puts added pressure on the other team to do everything they can to shut them up. As a result, we have seen numerous times that when that added pressure is applied, one mistake is all it usually takes for the team to unravel.

    Notice how when a guy guarantees a win and they do win, it's all the media will talk about for weeks, months, and in Namath's case years. But when a guy predicts a win and they lose, all they do is briefly mention what a big mouth idiot he is, and it's never brought up again. Guys have nothing to lose by running their mouth and being wrong, and glory to gain.

    It all depends on how mentally weak the person being jabbed is, as to whether the trash talking will work. As far as Romo goes, he didn't turn in a gutsy performance. They claim he had a punctured and collapsed lung that healed itself in 5 days with no treatment. It doesn't take a doctor to realize that a scenario like that is as close to impossible as they come. Leading me to believe the injury was nowhere near the severity Dallas hyped it to be. They are trying their hardest to turn Romo into a hero, to save his and their image, so they will spew whatever they can to erase the image of him being a choking whiny bitch. He's not tough, he's not clutch, and he will never amount to **** other than a lot of passing yards. He didn't beat us either, because he did nothing spectacular. It was another mediocre performance by a mediocre QB, who was carried by his defense and the refs, and the inept offense of the Redskins. If he had played like that against any other team, they would have lost by 20+ easy. His stat line was nearly exactly the same as Grossman's, and all we heard was how ****ty Grossman played and how great and gutsy Romo played. Simply put, Rex had a better game, because at least he threw a TD pass. They both completed 22 passes. Romo threw 36, Rex 37. They both had 1 INT. Romo had 5 yards more than Rex. So tell me, why is the perception that Romo played this heroic and wonderful game and lead his team to victory, when Rex was statistically better, and at least contributed to his team's score? Just because Dallas got the W, doesn't mean Romo should get credit by default, especially since he did everything he could to lose it for them. What else did he have, 4 or 5 fumbles? (I don't know how many they gave him credit for)

    He's a mediocre QB on a mediocre team, but because he cranks out big plays (completely due to his elite WR and TE) he gets credit for something he has no effect on. (see Eli without Plaxico)

    For a comparison, he is statistically inferior to Neil Lomax. Who the hell even knows who that is? But he has 5,000 more yards than Romo, 11 more TD, and he played as long as Romo has now. And you've never heard of him, because he played for the Cardinals. A mediocre team with a mediocre QB. Funny how similar their careers are when matched against each other, but only one is hyped, because he plays for Dallas. If he played for the Bengals and had the same stats, you'd never hear about him.

    Simply put, let players talk ****. Tony Romo is a choker, and doesn't deserve his praise. Let him actually contribute to beating us before you declare him king and say we should quit talking ****. He didn't shut us up, he hasn't shut anyone up. Take away Witten and Austin, or even just one of them, and Romo is a nothing QB.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    It's ok, I don't like you either.

  10. #10
    2016 BGO Survivor Champ

    Join Date
    08-01-09
    Location
    My location
    Posts
    11,499
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Florida State

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by servumtuum View Post
    ...Had this kind of thing happened in 2009, say, I would have simply shaken my head in dismay with a touch of sadness. Not now.

    Well, what about if it had happened when we were 6-2 half-way through Zorn's first year?

    Stever Spurrier's first year?

    I understand we need some confidence, but I am not buying this "swagger" idea will contribute to a change in culture. It didn't work when Deion got here, Portis couldn't make it work, Spurrier talked a good game and failed miserably.

    I say shut up and play!

    Serv, you're a numbers guy. Is there an algorithm that will show that trash talk breeds winning?
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    04-11-09
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    17,848
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Blog Entries
    94
    Marine Corps Virginia

    Default

    I don't think the thread is about swagger/trash talk breeding winning - but rather that it breeds losing.

    I think most of us would argue those are both silly ideas.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Subscribe to our BGO Mailing List

    You ain't bonafide

  12. #12
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    09-28-10
    Location
    BGO's Official Resident "Tech Dummy"
    Posts
    9,242
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ax View Post
    Well said Boone.

    I might also add, Joe Namath provided the ultimate bulletin board material, for the biggest game there is. It gave the Colts all the incentive in the world to smack down those young punks.

    How'd that work out?
    That was just one instance. Hardly proves a theory.
    One of the examples I gave was Gibbs' countless actions to the contrary, which produced winning results. I'd say with certainty that strongly supports my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    I don't think the thread is about swagger/trash talk breeding winning - but rather that it breeds losing.
    True, that's how the thread started, but my arguing counterparts here seem to indeed have the belief of the former part of your statement, regarding the breeding of winning, if I'm understanding correctly.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  13. #13

    Join Date
    06-30-09
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    3,569
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Indiana

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    Well, what about if it had happened when we were 6-2 half-way through Zorn's first year?

    Stever Spurrier's first year?

    I understand we need some confidence, but I am not buying this "swagger" idea will contribute to a change in culture. It didn't work when Deion got here, Portis couldn't make it work, Spurrier talked a good game and failed miserably.

    I say shut up and play!

    Serv, you're a numbers guy. Is there an algorithm that will show that trash talk breeds winning?
    Actually, El, what I'm saying is that the change in culture and performance makes the "swagger" more justifiable-ergo, more acceptable-than it would have been in 2009 as an example.

    An algorithm showing the liklihood of "trash talk" breeding winning? Hmmm...I've got some pretty powerful data mining software-if I had the time and inclination I suppose it would be possible to scrape and text-mine a couple dozen sports media sites online and see if it would correlate with winning but that would be too much work and I'm just too lazy other otherwise occupied to try.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    I'm giving it a 2-4 year window. Looking for improvement in all areas. Redskins, you're on the clock.

  14. #14
    2016 BGO Survivor Champ

    Join Date
    08-01-09
    Location
    My location
    Posts
    11,499
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Florida State

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    I don't think the thread is about swagger/trash talk breeding winning - but rather that it breeds losing.

    I think most of us would argue those are both silly ideas.
    Maybe I misunderstood, after I saw Extreme's post suggesting that the trash talk is why the Jets won last year, I was under the impression that he was saying it breeds winning.

    And serv, ! I expect numbers from you!
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

  15. #15
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    04-01-11
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Posts
    4,738
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Blog Entries
    3
    Army

    Default

    I was actually trying to suggest that football is trash talk neutral. I don't think it gives a team an edge unless they already have an edge and a fire inside to win to begin with.

    If trash talk bred losing, the Raiders would have 0 Lombardi Trophies. If staying quiet bred winning, the Patriots would be defending their 10th consecutive title.

    Trash talk is a non factor.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    It's ok, I don't like you either.

  16. #16

    Join Date
    07-15-09
    Location
    Cape Coral Fl
    Posts
    2,761
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)

    Default

    Have I missed something here ? Didn't this all start with a player being asked a question by a media outlet ? Cooley didn't just decide to come out with this out of the blue. Cooley responded in a true Redskins fashion IMO, and then ran with it on his blog. Big friggin deal...

    Redskins are supposed to despise the Cowboys, so why should any Redskins player ever say he's not happy to see the Cowboys fail ? Weather we're a good or bad team should make no difference.

    I wouldn't really even call this trash talkin. Not like Cooley said we're gonna kick the piss out of the Cowboys when we next play. Cage match.... pure comedy, classic Captain Chaos.

    Screw Dallas, and their fans. Eff em if they can't take a joke.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Subscribe to our BGO Mailing List

  17. #17
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    09-28-10
    Location
    BGO's Official Resident "Tech Dummy"
    Posts
    9,242
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles Monroe View Post
    Have I missed something here ? Didn't this all start with a player being asked a question by a media outlet ? Cooley didn't just decide to come out with this out of the blue. Cooley responded in a true Redskins fashion IMO, and then ran with it on his blog. Big friggin deal...

    Redskins are supposed to despise the Cowboys, so why should any Redskins player ever say he's not happy to see the Cowboys fail ? Weather we're a good or bad team should make no difference.

    I wouldn't really even call this trash talkin. Not like Cooley said we're gonna kick the piss out of the Cowboys when we next play. Cage match.... pure comedy, classic Captain Chaos.

    Screw Dallas, and their fans. Eff em if they can't take a joke.
    Well, like I said, this thread was not specifically about Cooley's comments, but the attitude in general, and just using Cooley as an example.

    And now, several weeks later, I don't think anyone can argue my point that this team was way too premature in talking about "swagger", "Super Bowl", and other forbidden "S" words, considering our recent demise.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  18. #18

    Join Date
    07-15-09
    Location
    Cape Coral Fl
    Posts
    2,761
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fear The Spear View Post
    Well, like I said, this thread was not specifically about Cooley's comments, but the attitude in general, and just using Cooley as an example.

    And now, several weeks later, I don't think anyone can argue my point that this team was way too premature in talking about "swagger", "Super Bowl", and other forbidden "S" words, considering our recent demise.
    We ain't dead just yet
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Subscribe to our BGO Mailing List

  19. #19
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-16-11
    Posts
    1,024
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Good thread. We've been this way since at least Michael Westbrook and Albert Connell. We talk loudly and carry a very little stick. This team almost never backs ups its boasting, but loves to bark.

    At this point it sounds like false bravado covering up insecurity... or perhaps outright stupidity.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Brian Westbrook -"It Would Be a Huge Dream to Play With the Redskins"
    By @SkinsGoldPants in forum Sons of Washington
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-28-10, 04:25 PM
  2. WP: Redskin Fans Say "See Ya!"
    By Ancalagon in forum Sons of Washington
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 10-27-09, 02:29 PM

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •