A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

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  1. #1
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    Default Danny Smith Must Go... There, I said it.

    Listened to coverage on the drive in and NO ONE talked at ALL about the Special Teams debacles.

    I have to ask the question: What has Danny Smith done to keep him on this staff?! The only positive thing I can remember from the guy is that he liked to score on trick plays during Zoron the Moron's tenure.

    This guy's teams have CONSISTENTLY disappointed through bad coverages, both kicking & receiving and mental mistakes... bad players (kickers, punters, etc.) and however else you could bunk up a ST appearance, I'm sure it's there.

    Add to that he's a holdover from the 'old guard' - I just don't see what ANYONE sees in this guy. Why is he teflon?!

    His teams last night basically cost us the game (two scores). I realize it's preseason... but:

    DANNY SMITH must GO.

    ...Hey, at least ONE Danny is fireable.... lol.


    Brang it.
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    Get in line, bud - I've been clamoring for him to be ****-canned for 3 seasons now. For some reason he's "respected" around the league, but yeah. He stinks.
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    I would be suprised if he's here next year. I agree, i just don't see what he does for us as a coach. He doesn't seem able to find good players(Kickers or punters) and we just make too many mental mistakes on returns with getting called for holding 75% of the time.

    I'm not basing this on just last night either. Even though going for that punt block at mid field that resulted into running into the kicker penalty, and a eventual score, was probably the stupidest call i've ever seen by a special teams coach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Deep View Post
    I would be suprised if he's here next year.
    Man, I've said this the past two years. When Shanahan was hired, I thought for SURE he was toast. Nope, that bastage has more lives than a cat with a bulletproof vest on! Amazing!
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    He's still better than that nightmare we had a while ago named LeCharles McDaniel, for those of us who remember that far back
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    DP44: Hey Mike, Danny Smith needs to go.

    Shanny: Who would you suggest to replace him?

    DP44: Lanky Livingston

    Shanny: But he's never coached "teams".

    DP44: Exactly. He can't do any worse than Smith.
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    I don't get the hate some people have for Danny Smith, I think he's great. His teams give up the fewest TDs on special teams (only 1 in the 112 regular season games he has been with the team - best in the NFL). Our coverage on punts and kicks is top notch every single year since we've had him. The things people bitch about the most with him - the kicking - is something that is beyond his control. If you have the worst punters and kickers, no coach can make them worth a damn.

    We rarely give up a big play on special teams. We blow it maybe once or twice a season, when other teams have at least one epic mistake nearly every game or two. If you hate him for our kickers and punters sucking, you hate the wrong guy.

    Read his stats, there is nobody better year in and year out. You take away all of his guys and give him chumps, and he still consistently ranks in the top 5 every single year in multiple categories, something no other ST coach does. His teams cover better than anybody, his return guys kill it consistently, his guys almost never get burned, and they are the only part of the organization who has been consistently good in recent memory.

    http://www.redskins.com/team/coaches...0-44f2fbc467e7

    http://www.hogshaven.com/2010/1/14/1...y-smith-should

    For those who think he needs to go, be careful what you wish for, you've apparently forgotten how horrible our special teams were for the decade or so prior to his arrival.
    Last edited by Nobody; 08-26-11 at 08:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    DP44: Exactly. He can't do any worse than Smith.
    We could do a LOT worse than Danny Smith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear The Spear View Post
    We could do a LOT worse than Danny Smith
    The only thing Danny knows how to run is the local grocery store out of bubble gum.

    Nobody stays with Rock Cartwright and Randle El as your returners as long as Smith did.

    Plus, name me the kicker or punter that actually improved in performance under Smith?

    We have veteran guys on teams under his tutelage that committ the same dumb mistakes,year after year, and Danny does nothing but keep throwing them out there.

    He'd make a good actor I guess, because he's got alot of people buffaloed into thinking he can actually coach,when in reality, he only looks the part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    The only thing Danny knows how to run is the local grocery store out of bubble gum.
    I take it you haven't noticed that for the past 7 seasons, the only players we had other than ST that could tackle were our special teams guys? They have been the only solid unit we've had for almost a decade now.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    Nobody stays with Rock Cartwright and Randle El as your returners as long as Smith did.
    Cartwright was a decent return guy. He averaged what 25 YPR? He didn't have the big play break away speed, but he didn't lose the ball either. As for Randle El, it was pretty well publicized that having him return punts was not his call. They didn't want to risk losing Mos to injury, even though Danny Smith thought the risk would have been worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    Plus, name me the kicker or punter that actually improved in performance under Smith?
    No coach can make a ****ty kicker better, nobody. Name one punter or kicker that sucked, then went to a different team and magically became a great kicker. Suisham sucked here and everywhere else he played, just like all of our kickers have since Lohmiller. There just aren't that many great kickers.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    He'd make a good actor I guess, because he's got alot of people buffaloed into thinking he can actually coach,when in reality, he only looks the part.
    So what you're saying is the stats only lie where you want them to lie, but back up your argument otherwise?

    Other than kickers, which have never been made or broken by their coaches, name a legitimate gripe about Danny Smith. His ST units have been top 5 in everything but kicking his entire career.

    On that note, here is proof that a coach can't make or break a kicker. Take a look at kickers he has coached.....

    1. Gary Anderson, arguably the greatest kicker in NFL history.
    2. Chris Boniol, who was great in the short time he played.
    3. Jason Hanson, who was an 85%+ kicker under Danny Smith.
    4. Rian Lindell, one of the most accurate kickers in the league.
    5. Shaun Suisham, who sucked before, during, and after Danny Smith.
    6. Nick Novak, see above.
    7. John Hall, 29 for 36 under Danny Smith.

    No argument anyone has ever presented to back their claim that Danny Smith sucks, can hold up to the facts. In fact, look up the career stats of these kickers, and notice that during the years Smith coached them, they were exactly the same their entire careers for the most part, proving my claim that a kicker is a natural talent that a coach cannot change. The good kickers were good before they played for him, and they were good after. The ones that sucked, sucked before and after. He had no effect on their skill good or bad.

    So I have to ask all of those that hate him, why do you really hate him? It isn't the stats. It isn't the performance of the unit. They've both been great. Aside from the kickers, which I just showed are not influenced by a ST coach.
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    Rock Cartwright scared no one. Neither did El.

    I am in disbelief that a fanbase that has had such greats as Marv Levy and Wayne Sevier as ST coaches, have been conditioned to put up with mediocrity.

    We have all watched over the last few years as Smith's units have greatly attributed to our losses.

    Is it now accepted that you should have no threats at the return positions? Or if your punter and kicker suck, you just stick with them, instead of bringing in someone else?

    Hell, we spent a draft pick on the Ray Guy Award winner in college and the kid actually got worse under Smith's watch to the point he's no longer in the league.

    And the guy doesn't even do live special teams practice,so how in the hell is this unit supposed to improve?
    As can be expected because the Redskins do no live special teams in practice, the blocking was sloppy. Perry Riley, Byron Westbrook and Horatio Blades all had illegal blocks in the back on punt returns.
    http://www.csnwashington.com/08/19/1...540&feedID=272

    I'll go on record now:

    Danny Smith's unit will cost us at least three games this fall.

    Think I'm crazy? His unit already cost us a preseason win last night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    Think I'm crazy? His unit already cost us a preseason win last night.
    That IS a crazy thought.

    To blame the ST coach for a loss on a game where the likes of Kellen Clemens were playing the 2nd half is ridiculous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear The Spear View Post
    That IS a crazy thought.

    To blame the ST coach for a loss on a game where the likes of Kellen Clemens were playing the 2nd half is ridiculous.
    Who's unit was on the field on 4th and 5 and extended the Ravens td drive?

    The one that had a VETERAN teamer that had yet another boneheaded play, which happens rather frequently under Smith.........
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    Rock Cartwright scared no one. Neither did El.
    I agree, and both aggravated the hell out of me to watch, because you knew they weren't scoring.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    I am in disbelief that a fanbase that has had such greats as Marv Levy and Wayne Sevier as ST coaches, have been conditioned to put up with mediocrity.
    Calling Danny Smith mediocre doesn't make it true. You, like everyone else that hates him, can provide no evidence to this claim. I provided plenty of evidence that he's one of the better ST coaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    We have all watched over the last few years as Smith's units have greatly attributed to our losses.
    Really? When? I can't recall a game his unit lost us, but I can recall a few they won for us, even if a few were due to trick plays or fakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    Is it now accepted that you should have no threats at the return positions? Or if your punter and kicker suck, you just stick with them, instead of bringing in someone else?
    Because of the fact a punt can hang in the air for so long, there might only be one or two guys in the league that are legitimate threats to return a punt for a TD. With the kickoffs being moved, and the almost 100% occurrence of touchbacks that will result, there will be no legitimate threats to run back a kickoff this season on any team, it's just not going to happen. I would bet money that there will be no more than 3 kickoffs in the league returned for a TD all season.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    Hell, we spent a draft pick on the Ray Guy Award winner in college and the kid actually got worse under Smith's watch to the point he's no longer in the league.
    This is true, but not Smith's fault. I guarantee you will not find evidence of any kicker in NFL history improving his play because of a coach, then falling off statistically under a different coach. Just like you won't find a single player that will kick like **** under a coach, then get a different coach and turn into a pro bowl kicker. It's never happened. Kicking is a natural talent, you can either do it or you can't, it's not a coachable skill. It's like thinking you can be coached to hit a home run.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    And the guy doesn't even do live special teams practice,so how in the hell is this unit supposed to improve?
    I don't understand why he does this at all, I've often wondered that myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    I'll go on record now:

    Danny Smith's unit will cost us at least three games this fall.
    If that's true, which I'm confident it won't be, I will go on record and say they will win us more games than they will lose us.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    Think I'm crazy? His unit already cost us a preseason win last night.
    You're high

    Oh, blaming the coach for an idiot player making an idiot decision, is like blaming a manager for a cashier undercharging a customer. Penalties are called on all sides of the ball, for all coaches.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    diot player making an idiot decision, is like blaming a manager for a cashier undercharging a customer. Penalties are called on all sides of the ball, for all coaches.
    So a coach is not responsible for sloppy play, especially when it's a veteran player that's been in his system for years?

    By that logic, no coach ever gets fired because it's always the players fault.

    These things would not be a big deal if they were isolated incidents or a stone cold rookie making these kind of mistakes.

    But it has become common place for Smith's units to wipe out returns or extend opponents drives on mistakes that you learn about in high school, yet his units never seem to grasp that.

    Good to know that Smith shares no responsibility for his unit's performance.

    Didn't know coaches had tenure here like teachers. Must be nice.....
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    the troubling thing to me about special teams is veterans like Mike Sellers and now Lorenzo Alexander and Reed Doughty continue to be called for stupid penalties that cost the team down and distance.

    against Baltimore, the defense had the Ravens off the field and Alexander came in out of control and caught a penalty for running into the kicker.

    inexcusable.

    one final question - of Smith is such a good teacher than how come Perry Riley continues to be a 'blocking in the back' machine each week?

    this has been going on for a year. can't they teach him how to use angles and proper technique?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    So a coach is not responsible for sloppy play, especially when it's a veteran player that's been in his system for years?
    Again, a coach cannot coach the stupid out of somebody. If a player continuously makes mistake after mistake, then and only then does it fall on the coach for failing to find a replacement. But as I stated earlier, even some of the best players at their position make mistakes. Look at Demarcus Ware, arguably one of the best in the league, but also likely the most penalized. He helps them more than he hurts them. The way you're making it seem, is that if a guy gets called for a stupid decision, then Danny Smith must have coached him to do that, and that simply isn't true.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    By that logic, no coach ever gets fired because it's always the players fault.
    Coaches get fired because the whole team or the whole unit goes to ****, not because one or two idiot players making an error once in a while. name one coach that was ever fire for his players getting penalized. There isn't one, penalties happen, even the top coaches still have teams that get penalized.

    Look at the Patriots. Everyone is in almost unanimous agreement that because of Belichick, they are probably by far and away the most disciplined team in the NFL, and have been for years. Oddly enough, even with that, there are still 8-10 teams every year with fewer penalties than them.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    These things would not be a big deal if they were isolated incidents or a stone cold rookie making these kind of mistakes.
    You have impossible standards that no unit in the league could live up to. You make it sound like they should play error free every single game, which nobody can do. Also, the same guy or guys don't make the same mistake every single time like you try to make it sound.

    Look at how many guys worshipped Chris Samuels when we had him. I personally hated the guy. Why? Because every single time we would have a huge play up the left side for a touchdown, his stupid ass would get called for a holding penalty. People think it's not true, because they wanted to focus only on how elite of a blocker he was, so they overlooked things he failed at.

    You want to hate Danny Smith, so you will over-criticize every single thing he does or his units do, but you'll be the first one jumping up and down on a kick or punt when we pin them in their own 5, or have a 3 man head on collision gang tackle to put a guy in his place.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    But it has become common place for Smith's units to wipe out returns or extend opponents drives on mistakes that you learn about in high school, yet his units never seem to grasp that.
    Again, this is something that happens to every single team in the league, at the exact same frequency. Usually when a guy gets a huge return, it was an illegal play that broke it open. That's not just the Redskins, it's every team. Why do you think every single time any player in the league gets a 30+ yard return, the first thing they do before they celebrate is look for a flag? You act like they wipe out huge plays with their mistakes, when in reality, the big play never would have happened without the mistake being made. Now if we had a 100 yard TD return, and it was negated by a penalty 40 yards off the ball, I could understand your gripe. But until that happens, you have no reason to be upset about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    Good to know that Smith shares no responsibility for his unit's performance.
    Good to know you think every coach in the league should be fired when his unit makes a mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog's Twin View Post
    the troubling thing to me about special teams is veterans like Mike Sellers and now Lorenzo Alexander and Reed Doughty continue to be called for stupid penalties that cost the team down and distance.
    They don't cost the team anything, because as I explained above, those big plays would never have happened if they weren't opened up by the boneheaded move. Don't convince yourself that a big play was made when it was only a mirage caused by an error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog's Twin View Post
    against Baltimore, the defense had the Ravens off the field and Alexander came in out of control and caught a penalty for running into the kicker.

    inexcusable.
    It happens. It's not like it's an every game occurrence. How often do you see that called? Once or twice a season? It's a rarity when you consider how many punts there are. It's also at the discretion of the officials, because half of them wouldn't have called it to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog's Twin View Post
    one final question - of Smith is such a good teacher than how come Perry Riley continues to be a 'blocking in the back' machine each week?
    Because Riley is a dumb son of a bitch, and because the officials like to call that all the time on every team, even though 75% of the time for every team it's a bull**** call.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog's Twin View Post
    this has been going on for a year. can't they teach him how to use angles and proper technique?
    You can't fix stupid.
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    Extreme, interested in why the proposition that Danny Smith might be getting more than his share of the benefit of the doubt has you so worked up? I mentioned in another thread that I love Danny Smith, 'the guy' - he's a joy to watch work in person, and I doubt there's another ST coach in the NFL that works as hard as he does.

    I neither think he's as bad as Diesel claims, nor as wonderful as you do. I think he's a solid ST coach. I think the thing that makes ST's different (and perhaps the coaches harder to judge) is that they have to cover a number of different scenarios, and when they screw up, even a minor mistake, it can have devastating results. So the difference between a really great ST unit, and a horrible one, may be judged based on 5-10 plays a season going the wrong way.

    Due to that, I do think that 'stupid mistakes' tend to stand out far more than they do on offense and defense. I don't think you could be any more wrong that coaches can't impact 'stupid'. 'Stupid' is a poor word choice in this conversation. You mentioned 'discipline' - the very nature of discipline is that it is learned and taught. It's not an inherent, natural quality. It grows from experience. The very basis of Marine Corps training is to tear a human down to their base self, strip them of all their previous baggage, and rebuild them as a disciplined, mistake-free performer.

    Ridding players of 'stupid' is about 70% of an NFL coaches job.

    Now, are there guys who are more impervious to coaching than others? Sure. And it might be that perhaps the Redskins tolerate that more than other teams. I don't believe it's true currently, as Shanahan and company place a higher premium on discipline and mistake-free play than any coaches (including Gibbs) we've had in recent memory. I feel confident if Shanahan believes Smith is tolerating mistakes and lack of discipline, Danny Smith won't be our ST coach down the road.
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    How come some of the same players that continue to make mistakes on special teams aren't taking penalties when playing on the regular offense or defense?

    If a guy is so stupid, you would think it would be exposed a lot more when he has more to digest and a larger script to read from when playing more reps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    Who's unit was on the field on 4th and 5 and extended the Ravens td drive?
    You tell me - was it our First Stringer Unit ?

    The same players that will play on the unit in the regular season ?
    Last edited by Fear The Spear; 08-27-11 at 06:17 PM.
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