lowered expectations

You can look at a list of bench-press combine results for DL, and the top of the list is heavy with players who have never played a down in the NFL. If scouts are using bench-press as their measuring tool, they are sorely mistaken.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-perf...008-2009-2010&workout=BENCH_PRESS&position=DL

I'll tell you one BIG problem with the 3-4 and that's the market - I think you'll find that 3-4 and it's variations are now the predominant species in the NFL. But it's a system built on specialization. As noted here, certain positions MUST play to a certain level and style for it to work as designed.

Now that isn't to say you can't adjust the packages and methods to account for your own personnel and coarching. But that takes time... like 2 years... lol.

As far as oSACKpo goes - he's a DE. He should play DE.

MikeSr619 said:

and one more thing...warren sapp did 17. still want to use the combine to make your point?

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your argument is not my argument, you simply arent reading. and yes I do put stock in combine results but they arent the be all and end all, however as I have said the baselines are there.

about Sapp, did you ever watch him play? do you understand that an under tackle in a 4-3 scheme like tampas means exactly what I just said, that you can cover up a weaker upper body because you are playing upfield and not trying to stack and shed blocks, Sapp played whats called a 3tech line up outside shoulder of the guard and get into the backfield.

your other examples are whats called facetious reasoning, comparing a weak corner with a weak DT? perhaps had you said "smoot ran extremely slow but was still good" then the comparison would be apt. the valid comparison would be a weak DT with a slow corner. and again you seem to ignore that a 4-3 DT skillset is usually quite different from that of a 3-4 de especially the way we seem to want to run it.

Stick to the Plan

Rymanofthenorth said:

I completely agree that when rebuilding you need hardworking guys with mental toughness who wont quit, thats not even remotely what I am arguing what I am arguing is that our talent evaluators and coaches havent exactly gota great track record for finding guys to fit a scheme and even worse the had no clue about fitting a scheme to the players they had.

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You have got to be kidding me.
Least anyone forget, we had exactly 6 picks in the 2010 draft. They were:
Trent Williams - 1st
Riley Perry - 4th
Dennis Morris - 6th
Terrance Austin - 7th
Eric Cook - 7th
Selvish Capers - 7th

Half of the draft (3) was the O-line, 2 on skill positions, and 1 on the D.
How many are still on the team? All but 1 - Dennis Morris and he is a TE.
How many of these players don't fit the scheme?

They say anyone past the 1st round and 2nd round are neither guaranteed starters or being considered for an immediate starting position. Everyone below Trent were back-ups/developmental players. They all have now had a full year in the system, all have showed potential, and all fit the scheme.

Oh, and they all have had a full year in an NFL physical training program to improve their upper body strength.

2011 we had 11 picks - 6 defensive and 5 offensive. 4 of the 6 defensive players are in the front 7.
Of the 5 offensive players selected, 4 are skill position players and 1 is for the O-line.
So, last year it was all about the O-line. This year it is about the D-line, LBs, and offensive skill positions.
Sounds like a plan to procure youth and talent through the draft in a balanced, methodical way. Like I said before, I am an optimist because I see a plan that was developed last year and still being put into action.

Did you expect them to make the 3-4 work in 1 year with only 1 player added? I don't think so and neither did they. They said they were going to initiate it now and deal with the growing pains. Oh, and who did we bring in through Free Agency? McNabb (QB) and Jamal Brown (OT). How many did they cut - 10 players and freed up a ton of cap money.

Lastly, how do you go about making a transition to a 3-4 over a period of years? Do you (hopefully) find players who can play in both but will be better in a 3-4 than a 4-3 and then make the switch when you think you have enough players to make the switch successful? No. You rip the bandaid off, make what you have work as best it can, and add the players you need to make it better. I think Jim Haslett, who knew what he was getting into, was going to blow his brains out in frustration even though he knew this is what was going to happen.

Lanky Livingston said:

You can look at a list of bench-press combine results for DL, and the top of the list is heavy with players who have never played a down in the NFL. If scouts are using bench-press as their measuring tool, they are sorely mistaken.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-perf...008-2009-2010&workout=BENCH_PRESS&position=DL

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I never said you ignore other things, perhaps if you read what I wrote before commenting you woulndt be trying to argue an argument that is invalid. (I happen to agree that benchpress overall is overrated as a measurement, however there are certain MINIMUM BASELINES for certain measurements that cannot be ignored. for skill guys it would be 40 time, and cones, for bigs its bench and broadjump and squat. you also look at how they have performed and at what level. its an overall thing, it wasnt like there wasnt precedents with Andre carter, he failed at OLB in san fran, and any long time fan could have warned the FO that thats why we got him on the cheap, he wasnt a bad player, he just didnt fit what san fran was doing, and he was a great character guy.

Jerry Rice was not a burner but he was fast enough at 4.56- 4.6 in the 40 that by using superior route running and wiles he could get open and make catches, would he have flourished with the old raiders deep attack?probably no but he played in a WCO that placed a premium on short slants and medium routes. would he have succeeded running a 4.9 40? I strongly doubt it.

you fit players to what you want, if you want an upfield penetrator? you dont draft the 6-1 330 pound guy very often, just as if you want the stand up block absorber, you dont draft the guy who is weak in the upper body.

some players are versatile, some can make changes and not be affected, this is not the norm at the elite level except by the absolute cream of the crop.
some guys can get by because they simply are that athletic, some are not, our problem with this team is we have been extremely poor at judging this.

I dont care for the 3-4 in general but if I genuinely thought it was what was best for us I would be on board, its hasnt been and its not. nuff said.

if you want to argue with me thats fine, just argue what im arguing not your take on what I am arguing.

MikeSr619 said:

lol..yeah, seems like YOU made the argument and now that youve been exposed with your own comments you are trying to back track and say something else.

as for the rest, i will stick to my original point. you dont like the 3-4 and are just once again expressing it in a new thread that says the same thing.

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No Mike, what I said was very simple, now go read it, there is a BASELINE FOR CERTAIN STATS AND WHEN PLAYERS DONT MEET THAT BASELINE FOR THEIR POSITION, there is usually not much chance of them being succsessful, then I made sure that anyone could understand what I was syaing by explaining it so that even a 2 year old could understand. a 3-4 de needs to have a certain level of strength, I do not think that 17 reps is going to cut it.

if you dont want to read what I write, there is a very simple solution, dont read it. I am not patient enough to cut and paste everything I have already posted in the order it was posted merely to show you are continuing to try and argue something that I was never arguing. Have good one.

Dik Shuttle said:

I'll tell you one BIG problem with the 3-4 and that's the market - I think you'll find that 3-4 and it's variations are now the predominant species in the NFL. But it's a system built on specialization. As noted here, certain positions MUST play to a certain level and style for it to work as designed.

Now that isn't to say you can't adjust the packages and methods to account for your own personnel and coarching. But that takes time... like 2 years... lol.

As far as oSACKpo goes - he's a DE. He should play DE.

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that is a huge part of it as well, when nobody ran it you could 3-4 players much later than 4-3 players, now they are at a premium. good post btw

perhaps instead of continuing to argue something that was obviously not what I was arguing and then getting aggressive about it, you should simply have read what I wrote? just an FYI my break was self imposed at first, and I was told that several people were on the verge of joining me when it became non self imposed.

what I said was very very clear, go read what you quoted
" he also put up 17 reps of 225 at the combine, I dont know how carefully you follow that stuff but 17 would be a great number for DB maybe even a linebacker but for a guy expected to play DE or NT in a 3-4 not so much. in contrast Rak put up 31 reps in his draft year. in a 3-4 benchpress becomes more important because you arent moving upfield, you are holding the point a lot."

note the wording, in a 3-4 it BECOMES MORE IMPORTANT, nowhere did I state it was the only thing you look at and if you were reading the first post you would know its obviously not what I was saying.

I am done arguing this with you Mike.

Skinzfan said:

You have got to be kidding me.
Least anyone forget, we had exactly 6 picks in the 2010 draft. They were:
Trent Williams - 1st
Riley Perry - 4th
Dennis Morris - 6th
Terrance Austin - 7th
Eric Cook - 7th
Selvish Capers - 7th

Half of the draft (3) was the O-line, 2 on skill positions, and 1 on the D.
How many are still on the team? All but 1 - Dennis Morris and he is a TE.
How many of these players don't fit the scheme?

They say anyone past the 1st round and 2nd round are neither guaranteed starters or being considered for an immediate starting position. Everyone below Trent were back-ups/developmental players. They all have now had a full year in the system, all have showed potential, and all fit the scheme.

Oh, and they all have had a full year in an NFL physical training program to improve their upper body strength.

2011 we had 11 picks - 6 defensive and 5 offensive. 4 of the 6 defensive players are in the front 7.
Of the 5 offensive players selected, 4 are skill position players and 1 is for the O-line.
So, last year it was all about the O-line. This year it is about the D-line, LBs, and offensive skill positions.
Sounds like a plan to procure youth and talent through the draft in a balanced, methodical way. Like I said before, I am an optimist because I see a plan that was developed last year and still being put into action.

Did you expect them to make the 3-4 work in 1 year with only 1 player added? I don't think so and neither did they. They said they were going to initiate it now and deal with the growing pains. Oh, and who did we bring in through Free Agency? McNabb (QB) and Jamal Brown (OT). How many did they cut - 10 players and freed up a ton of cap money.

Lastly, how do you go about making a transition to a 3-4 over a period of years? Do you (hopefully) find players who can play in both but will be better in a 3-4 than a 4-3 and then make the switch when you think you have enough players to make the switch successful? No. You rip the bandaid off, make what you have work as best it can, and add the players you need to make it better. I think Jim Haslett, who knew what he was getting into, was going to blow his brains out in frustration even though he knew this is what was going to happen.

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Ok Skinsfan sorry I missed this. its a solid argument.

first why did we have the dearth of draft picks? was it perhaps due to making trades for guys who didnt fit the systems? Mcnabb apparently cant run shannys system and we traded a 2 for him, 2 of the linemen we drafted we drafted in the 7th round, how many 7th rounders are starting right now? those are bonus picks as in its a bonus if they give you anything at all.

I would argue with you that dropping 2 seventh round picks after using your first rounder doesnt make a draft " all about the Oline" I would also argue that drafting guys who are not great fits physically means you either dont know what you are doing or you are building something other than what you are claiming. also when your largest holes are on the line you draft linemen who can play now.

did I expect them to make a 3-4 work with only one player added? No of course not, go back and search the thread I started titled 3-4, and you will see some things that I dont really want to retype, basically ,no , you dont transition to a 3-4 WHEN YOU HAVE NO RESOURCES TO DO SO, and you damn sure dont do it when your weakness as a team are at the two positions that you will need the most in a 3-4 (Dt's who can move to de and LB). we had only at best 2 very good and one decent linebacker, we had one DT capable of playing de (we fluked out and got Carrikker out of the rams garbage bin.) you dont do it thinking you can go with what you have unless you KNOW that those guys will fit a 3-4, you dont switch just to switch and thats what we did.

Now for the part thats going to blow your mind, how many teams that make the switch to the 3-4 AND HAVE THE PROPER PLAYERS TO DO IT, are not immediately better? did you for instance know that every single team that switched to a 3-4 was better statistically IN THE SEASON OF THE SWITCH? But thats assuming two very important things, that you 1- have the right players in place to make the switch. and 2- have the right coach in place to scheme. You dont make changes to get worse, you make them to improve and no you dont make changes in scheme with an eye to 3 years down the road. the only team that did well taking their time to transition was the patriots, BUT the other teams drafted the keys either the year before or the year of the switch, we did nothing at all and just expected the scheme to work, it was bound to fail and it did fail, and now it looks like we will be slightly better.

Haslett doesnt get a pass, no more than shanny does, you dont build your defence to play a year from now, you go with what you have and put them in place to make plays NOW. last year we played for this year, so now this year we play for next year?

I dont agree that in year one they had a plan for youth, I think the opposite, it seemed like they didnt know wtf they were doing going young or going old, we didnt geta clear sense of rebuild until the end of last season when it was clear it was needed.

never mind

We don't need any help moderating guys. If you want to counter a post - then do it - but I'm tired of accusations and personal innuendo. We're not going to have this personal back and forth any more. I'm tired of saying it. If I see it continue, we're going to clean some ****ing house here.