fansince62
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You forgot give it to the government
how's that any different from going out in my backyard and burning it?
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Economics Thread
- Thread starter Goaldeje
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how's that any different from going out in my backyard and burning it?
redskins26
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As a compassionate conservative it should be my choice if i donate money to someone.
As far as people being poor most are poor due to lifestyle choices witha few tweaks would definatly be able to survive better without government assistance
redskins26
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No clue i was just pointing out the option you forgot about
Nobody
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This is not only opinion that you present as fact, it is inaccurate as hell. I'm poor, as is most of my family. I can assure you it isn't due to poor choices.
My father graduated from high school in 1969 as valedictorian. Since he came from a poor family, and the funds available now weren't as readily available then, he didn't go to college. Instead, he went to work for his then girlfriend's father who owned a local distribution company. He was making $30,000 which was unbelievably good back then. Five years in, the warehouse burned down and killed the old man, and my father was out of a job. He then went into route sales for Hostess, moved up to Pepsi for more pay, then again to Bridgford Foods where he was appointed regional supervisor in 1989 and earning $75,000 per year. Then he began having health problems that forced him to quit before he could collect full retirement. They gave him a pension, but only partial. At $1,840 per month, he is far from rich. Not a lifestyle choice, more reality kicking him in the nuts.
My story is very similar, as I have posted somewhere on this site, also not a lifestyle choice.
My neighbor went to college and got a business degree. He also obtained his realtors license after college and opened up his own company. He did great for a while, then the economy and housing market tanked. Since he had only been in it a few years, he lost his ass and is now working two part time jobs just to scrape by. Again, not a lifestyle choice.
Lanky Livingston
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I find people like to throw a blanket over people on welfare and call them all lazy, or poor by choice, when in reality its far from the truth. There are people who take advantage of it for sure, but its the vast minority.
Nobody
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That, ladies and gentlemen is what you call an actual fact being presented as fact. It's sad that a few of you keep giving opinions and acting like there is actual scientific data to back your claims.
Vast majority? Maybe, maybe not. I went to New Orleans three years ago with a church group to do some work. The one week that we spent working didn't change the world, but it was astonishing to see the number of people who do nothing and wait/expect others to come and help. Just saying.
Anyway...more from PS in this article from yesterday.
http://www.dailywealth.com/preview/1705
A Precious Metals Chart the Government Won't Ever Show You
By Porter Stansberry
Tuesday, April 19, 2011
Over the past two years, I've been telling my readers about the sham the U.S. government is perpetuating on its citizens. I've shown you what corrupted the American system, why our debt problem is worse than you know, and how to protect your family from what I'm calling the End of America.
If you're not convinced yet... there's probably not much I can do. But I'd like one more chance. In today's essay, I lay out one more way to look at the problem. See if you don't finally take action.
(If you are already convinced – and are already doing everything you can to protect yourself – pass this around to your friends. If you care about their financial wellbeing, they need to see it, too.)
First, though, we need to back up...
At one time in American history, the benefits of sound money and the risks of easy credit were completely understood. It was during the founding of our country... just after the Constitution was ratified.
The Second Congress of the United States passed the Coinage Act of 1792. The act established the dollar as the currency of the United States and defined precisely what a dollar was: 24.1 grams of pure silver.
To ensure the quality of America's money, three coins were taken from every major batch minted. Each year on the last Monday in July, the chief justice of the Supreme Court, the secretary of the Treasury, the secretary of State, and the attorney general witnessed these coins being assayed.
If the sample coins did not meet legal standards, the officers of the mint would be dismissed and the $10,000 surety bonds they posted would be seized. Further, if any officer of the mint was found guilty of embezzlement or of debasing the coins, the penalty was death.
Compare that system – where the most senior members of the federal government are in charge of maintaining the soundness of our money – with today's system. Under the current system, the federal government has become the biggest counterfeiter in the world.
Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke has tripled the monetary base of the United States in only two years. The dollar lost 50% of its purchasing power under Alan Greenspan. And since the dollar was taken off of the gold standard in 1971, it's lost 90% of its purchasing power.
But what does the outrageous perfidy of our political class mean to you? Let me show you...
Imagine if the dollar was still defined as 24.1 grams of pure silver. (That's the exact amount of silver in the famous "Morgan dollar.") Imagine if companies paid dividends to shareholders in silver coins (or a mixture of gold and silver coins). Imagine when you saw the S&P 500 quoted in dollars, those dollars represented amounts of silver, not empty promises from the Federal Reserve. What would our stock exchange look like if our money was still "real"?
This chart shows the value of the biggest U.S. corporations, as measured by real silver dollars, since the founding of our country.
You can see a long and powerful uptrend that begins just after the Civil War and continues until the late 1960s.
That's when the trouble starts...
In the late 1950s and early 1960s, the U.S. economy began running a constant and growing deficit with the rest of the world. Borrowing – mainly in the public sector – fueled these deficits, as the government tried to expand its social spending and fight a foreign war without raising taxes. Facing the possible loss of all its gold reserves, sharply higher borrowing costs, or both... the U.S. simply repudiated these debts, abandoning the pledge we'd made at Bretton Woods in 1946 to always allow foreign central banks to exchange their dollars for gold.
We cheated our creditors, rather than repay our debts.
The value of the U.S. dollar collapsed as a result. The loss was so severe that during the 1970s, the "real" value of the S&P 500 – as measured in silver – fell by almost 90%. Of course, since most people didn't look at the world through the lens of real money, few realized what was happening.
In terms of paper dollars, stocks ended the 1970s about where they began. But in terms of purchasing power – in terms of real money – stocks would not regain their 1960s highs for 27 years.
By using paper money instead of silver, politicians discovered they could easily hide declines in America's standard of living and our national wealth. In short, they discovered it was easier to "paper" over our problems than allow failing institutions and businesses to go under. It was easier to cheat our creditors than pay our debts.
On the other hand, sound monetary policy (thanks to Paul Volcker) drove the big bull market of the 1980s and 1990s. But toward the end of the 1990s, debts began to explode again relative to the size of our economy. This second credit bubble, fostered by Alan Greenspan, wasn't limited to the public sector. Private debts soared, too... especially credit card, mortgage, and student-loan debt.
These policies sparked another huge devaluation of the dollar, one that has continued almost unabated today. That's why, in terms of silver, the value of the S&P 500 has been in a steady bear market since 2000. Take a look...
The supposed recovery we saw from 2003 to 2008 never shows up on this chart. It was all financed with funny money – debts the market knew would never be repaid.
What's the end game? How will our country (and most of the developed world) learn to live within its means? We continue to believe the most likely answer is "painfully." There just aren't many happy endings for countries with this much debt or with corrupt political systems that wield so much power.
More at the above link.
Anyway...more from PS in this article from yesterday.
http://www.dailywealth.com/preview/1705
A Precious Metals Chart the Government Won't Ever Show You
By Porter Stansberry
Tuesday, April 19, 2011
Over the past two years, I've been telling my readers about the sham the U.S. government is perpetuating on its citizens. I've shown you what corrupted the American system, why our debt problem is worse than you know, and how to protect your family from what I'm calling the End of America.
If you're not convinced yet... there's probably not much I can do. But I'd like one more chance. In today's essay, I lay out one more way to look at the problem. See if you don't finally take action.
(If you are already convinced – and are already doing everything you can to protect yourself – pass this around to your friends. If you care about their financial wellbeing, they need to see it, too.)
First, though, we need to back up...
At one time in American history, the benefits of sound money and the risks of easy credit were completely understood. It was during the founding of our country... just after the Constitution was ratified.
The Second Congress of the United States passed the Coinage Act of 1792. The act established the dollar as the currency of the United States and defined precisely what a dollar was: 24.1 grams of pure silver.
To ensure the quality of America's money, three coins were taken from every major batch minted. Each year on the last Monday in July, the chief justice of the Supreme Court, the secretary of the Treasury, the secretary of State, and the attorney general witnessed these coins being assayed.
If the sample coins did not meet legal standards, the officers of the mint would be dismissed and the $10,000 surety bonds they posted would be seized. Further, if any officer of the mint was found guilty of embezzlement or of debasing the coins, the penalty was death.
Compare that system – where the most senior members of the federal government are in charge of maintaining the soundness of our money – with today's system. Under the current system, the federal government has become the biggest counterfeiter in the world.
Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke has tripled the monetary base of the United States in only two years. The dollar lost 50% of its purchasing power under Alan Greenspan. And since the dollar was taken off of the gold standard in 1971, it's lost 90% of its purchasing power.
But what does the outrageous perfidy of our political class mean to you? Let me show you...
Imagine if the dollar was still defined as 24.1 grams of pure silver. (That's the exact amount of silver in the famous "Morgan dollar.") Imagine if companies paid dividends to shareholders in silver coins (or a mixture of gold and silver coins). Imagine when you saw the S&P 500 quoted in dollars, those dollars represented amounts of silver, not empty promises from the Federal Reserve. What would our stock exchange look like if our money was still "real"?
This chart shows the value of the biggest U.S. corporations, as measured by real silver dollars, since the founding of our country.
You can see a long and powerful uptrend that begins just after the Civil War and continues until the late 1960s.
That's when the trouble starts...
In the late 1950s and early 1960s, the U.S. economy began running a constant and growing deficit with the rest of the world. Borrowing – mainly in the public sector – fueled these deficits, as the government tried to expand its social spending and fight a foreign war without raising taxes. Facing the possible loss of all its gold reserves, sharply higher borrowing costs, or both... the U.S. simply repudiated these debts, abandoning the pledge we'd made at Bretton Woods in 1946 to always allow foreign central banks to exchange their dollars for gold.
We cheated our creditors, rather than repay our debts.
The value of the U.S. dollar collapsed as a result. The loss was so severe that during the 1970s, the "real" value of the S&P 500 – as measured in silver – fell by almost 90%. Of course, since most people didn't look at the world through the lens of real money, few realized what was happening.
In terms of paper dollars, stocks ended the 1970s about where they began. But in terms of purchasing power – in terms of real money – stocks would not regain their 1960s highs for 27 years.
By using paper money instead of silver, politicians discovered they could easily hide declines in America's standard of living and our national wealth. In short, they discovered it was easier to "paper" over our problems than allow failing institutions and businesses to go under. It was easier to cheat our creditors than pay our debts.
On the other hand, sound monetary policy (thanks to Paul Volcker) drove the big bull market of the 1980s and 1990s. But toward the end of the 1990s, debts began to explode again relative to the size of our economy. This second credit bubble, fostered by Alan Greenspan, wasn't limited to the public sector. Private debts soared, too... especially credit card, mortgage, and student-loan debt.
These policies sparked another huge devaluation of the dollar, one that has continued almost unabated today. That's why, in terms of silver, the value of the S&P 500 has been in a steady bear market since 2000. Take a look...
The supposed recovery we saw from 2003 to 2008 never shows up on this chart. It was all financed with funny money – debts the market knew would never be repaid.
What's the end game? How will our country (and most of the developed world) learn to live within its means? We continue to believe the most likely answer is "painfully." There just aren't many happy endings for countries with this much debt or with corrupt political systems that wield so much power.
More at the above link.
It is SO much easier to do things that way. If the Republicans actually put names and faces together with the people their spending cuts hurt and affected, while cutting taxes for the rich, they might actually feel guilty and therefore human. Much much easier to generalize,painting with a broad brush, makes it easier to justify.
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Nobody
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You do have to appreciate the overwhelming irony in his post.there..much better..
I always forget my sarcasm smiley. We really need to work on that.
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Nobody
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It does completely change the context of thingsI always forget my sarcasm smiley. We really need to work on that.
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One major downside to posting on the internet: voice inflection and sarcasm are almost always missed.fansince62
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look...my Dad's parents died in a car wreck when he was two weeks old. He was adopted by a steelworker in Gary, Indiana. He went on to degrees at Yale undergraduate and graduate school. everyone has a story.
this thread has moved in an entirely bogus direction. the issue isn't the personal qualities or misfortunes of those receiving assistance. it's about policy and execution. it's about liberty, charity and obligation.
- where is the dividing line for society? assist with every misfortune, some, none? what's the criteria?
- what standard is being maintained? (i.e., what's the cost)
- is there a limit to what is affordable?
- how long should assistance be provided?
- who provides the assistance?
- what are are the conditions for receiving assistance?
- what are the conditions for continuiing to receive assistance?
- what are the conditions for discontinuiing assistance?
- what is to be sacrificed to pay for the assistance?
- is it right to use the government to coerce such support?
- how should such programs be managed?
- what exactly is the correct policy for income redistribution?
- what are our obligations?
- are there mutual obligations?
- what is the standard for accountability?
- should these programs be Federally or locally/State directed?
Sarge
Guest
Whoo Hoo! The Obama economy! Four more years!
Not
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42704213
The combination of rising gasoline prices and the steepest increase in the cost of food in a generation is threatening to push the US economy into a recession, according to Craig Johnson, president of Customer Growth Partners.
Not
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42704213
The combination of rising gasoline prices and the steepest increase in the cost of food in a generation is threatening to push the US economy into a recession, according to Craig Johnson, president of Customer Growth Partners.
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