• Welcome to BGO! We know you will have questions as you become familiar with the software. Please take a moment to read our New BGO User Guide which will give you a great start. If you have questions, post them in the Feedback and Tech Support Forum, or feel free to message any available Staff Member.

Economics Thread

Pls show me where Conservatives argue that this is a zero sum solution space?

You're ignoring the fundamental purposes these programs are really being shaped for. I repeat...I at least...understand the need to assist those who misfortune has visited to help them recover. this is not what these programs have become - they have become permament agents for wealth/income redistribution objectives of the more Liberal/Progressive elements in our society. Obama dropped the ball when he said as much during his famous slip with Joe the Plumber. This is the real struggle that lies behind the whole budget fiasco going on right now: whether the social product is going to be cornered (i.e., taxed) by government for subsequent redistribution according to the social justice principles of the moment....or whether individuals are self-determining and accountable.

Jeezy Creezy. I must be typing in Spanish today.

:)

OK, I don't agree with everything you typed, but don't have the energy to argue with you point by point. Let's say for a second that I stipulate for the time being your point in the above paragraph. Given that, how would you change it? How would you fix it, improve it?
 
Jeezy Creezy. I must be typing in Spanish today.

:)

OK, I don't agree with everything you typed, but don't have the energy to argue with you point by point. Let's say for a second that I stipulate for the time being your point in the above paragraph. Given that, how would you change it? How would you fix it, improve it?

nope....:)

it's up to you to establish what you think my mora/societal obligations are and how the coercive powers of government should be used to reduce the standard-of-living of me and my family in the service of these obligations.
 
nope....:)

it's up to you to establish what you think my mora/societal obligations are and how the coercive powers of government should be used to reduce the standard-of-living of me and my family in the service of these obligations.


Sooo... essentially, you don't give a damn what happens to poor people as long as it doesn't affect your standard of living? You would be happy if Congress/govt lowered taxes on you and stopped paying all entitlement programs? Not reconfigured them to improve efficiency and so on, but eliminated them all together?

That is some scary **** there, man.

And yet, I know many, many people who have the exact same mindset.

Nice to know the Compassionate Conservative doesn't exist anymore.
 
Sooo... essentially, you don't give a damn what happens to poor people as long as it doesn't affect your standard of living? You would be happy if Congress/govt lowered taxes on you and stopped paying all entitlement programs? Not reconfigured them to improve efficiency and so on, but eliminated them all together?

That is some scary **** there, man.

And yet, I know many, many people who have the exact same mindset.

Nice to know the Compassionate Conservative doesn't exist anymore.


geez...you do love jumping to conclusions and casting all sorts of aspersions on a person's character!!!

no....I'm trying to get across the point that there are trade-offs involved. it's a marginal argument....not the "all or nothing" case you keep pressing.

I understand that you are a beacon of virtue and that you are singularly blessed with inscrutable knowledge on how I how should live my life, what I should feel obligated to support and which options should be available to my family. oooops.......yes....resources are always limited and choices have to be made. demands always exceed resources. but you know best what I should do.....cause you are simply a superior moral agent. got it. you have that check in the box. can we move on now?
 
geez...you do love jumping to conclusions and casting all sorts of aspersions on a person's character!!!

If you weren't such an easy target...

no....I'm trying to get across the point that there are trade-offs involved. it's a marginal argument....not the "all or nothing" case you keep pressing.

I think I have asked for clarification numerous times now regarding what changes you would make. The fact that you refuse to elaborate in the slightest leads one to believe it is indeed all or nothing.

For YOU.

As stated before, I am willing to cede that waste and inefficiency are rampant and need to be cleaned up. Furthermore, I have invited you to converse with me on what changes need to be made, and how those changes should be enacted.

And I get nothing back.

I understand that you are a beacon of virtue and that you are singularly blessed with inscrutable knowledge on how I how should live my life, what I should feel obligated to support and which options should be available to my family. oooops.......yes....resources are always limited and choices have to be made. demands always exceed resources. but you know best what I should do.....cause you are simply a superior moral agent. got it. you have that check in the box. can we move on now?

Glad we can all agree on that. That's a relief.

Again, inviting conversation, but all I get back are absolutes.
 
If you weren't such an easy target...



I think I have asked for clarification numerous times now regarding what changes you would make. The fact that you refuse to elaborate in the slightest leads one to believe it is indeed all or nothing.

For YOU.

As stated before, I am willing to cede that waste and inefficiency are rampant and need to be cleaned up. Furthermore, I have invited you to converse with me on what changes need to be made, and how those changes should be enacted.

And I get nothing back.



Glad we can all agree on that. That's a relief.

Again, inviting conversation, but all I get back are absolutes.


no...what you're asking for is a fool's bargain...kinda like the same crap Obama tried to pull with his "let's freeze the budget at current levels" legerdemain.

the philosophic conversation about what government can/can't/should/shouldn't do needs to be held first. I'm not intererested in making wealth/income redistribution programs more efficient.
 
no...what you're asking for is a fool's bargain...kinda like the same crap Obama tried to pull with his "let's freeze the budget at current levels" legerdemain.

the philosophic conversation about what government can/can't/should/shouldn't do needs to be held first. I'm not intererested in making wealth/income redistribution programs more efficient.


I'm not sure how to respond, other than shake my head in disbelief.

Let me say this, then I will go do something else and allow my blood pressure to come down.

Do you realize that all your avoidances, all your ramblings and generalizations and insults are exactly what is turning people away from the Republican Party? I know I seem like Keith Olbermann to you, but I'm actually fairly reasonably in the center. I align myself with the right on some things and the left on others. We're the people that win elections.

You need my vote.

OK, not my vote specifically, but others like me. There are a lot of us. And we are disgusted by the rhetoric you spew. You can tell me again you don't care about my vote and don't need people of my ilk to vote Republican, but you're wrong.

When those of us in the middle invite conversation from those of you on either extreme, it is to get a better understanding of what you believe in, so perhaps we will have a better idea of who to vote for and so on.

I don't like what I see. At all. I actually find it reprehensibly scary. And I have always voted your way.

I don't think Obama is a good leader. I would like to vote for someone else in 2012. But I hate the idea of electing someone as full of hate and vitriol as the Republicans appear to be.
 
everything I've said in this and several other threads on similar topics.
Look man, I'm not trying to bust your balls or rag on you, but you're making it really easy for me to agree with the more liberal members around here on a lot of their arguments. Even though I'm a slightly right leaning centrist, you are making it a no contest.

Sure, everyone has their own views and opinions of how things should or shouldn't work. What you're doing is completely different. You're making vague statements, then getting upset when someone makes a comment based on what you said. You keep using the response that we're all misunderstanding you, or that what we are assuming isn't what you're actually saying. Problem is, you aren't really saying anything definitively either way on any topic, so why are you getting upset when none of us can figure out what your point of view is?

Just make it simple and say what it is you want to say, instead of leading us in one direction, then clamping down and denying everything when we take that route as your point of view?

From what me, and several other members here have gathered based on your posts, is that as long as the government doesn't do anything to change your cozy lifestyle, you're ok with it and **** everybody else. You can't honestly believe that any piece of legislation could really work that way. We all want our way, but in reality it doesn't work that way.

You have to make compromises. It isn't like the government is telling you to pay your neighbor a salary. They're taking money that would be getting taken from you regardless, and there is nothing you can do or say that can change that. So honestly, why do you care where the money goes if you're powerless to do anything about it?

Trust me, there are several things in the government I completely hate and disagree with, and that I argue against. With you though, you are coming across as having an attitude that's basically **** you as long as I'm happy. Where's the compassion? I'm sure you'll say that isn't what you're trying to say, but if it isn't, please tell us what you are trying to say and it would make the debate flow a lot smoother.
 
Just make it simple and say what it is you want to say, instead of leading us in one direction, then clamping down and denying everything when we take that route as your point of view?
Lord knows he doesn't need me to speak for him, but I'll try to touch on one of the things I think he's been saying. Eliminate first, that which we shouldn't be doing in the first place, BEFORE, spending any time trying to fix what's left. I get that.

As an old landscaper myself, let's talk in terms we both know.

If you approach entitlements like an overgrown, out of shape, unhealthy tree, that can withstand a heavy pruning, you can use one of three methods to deal with it. Removing it, for this instance, is not an option.
1. Leave it as is
2. Tip it a little to correct it's outer shape, making it more pleasing to the eye of Johnny homeowner. Or,
3. Do it right. Which means thinning it out. Removing branches that cross and/or rub against one another. Shape the core structure of the tree so that it will grow with optimum efficiency. Kill any fungus and insects doing damage. Deep feed it, if necessary. And make sure the customer knows that it's gonna look like hell for little while, but it's the best course of action to take.



You have to make compromises. It isn't like the government is telling you to pay your neighbor a salary. They're taking money that would be getting taken from you regardless, and there is nothing you can do or say that can change that. So honestly, why do you care where the money goes if you're powerless to do anything about it?
Wow! I'm guessing this doesn't read like you meant it to. The government does make us pay certain neighbors salary. And healthcare. And grocery bill. And education. Who we vote for CAN do something about that. Even if it's only a little.
 
Look man, I'm not trying to bust your balls or rag on you, but you're making it really easy for me to agree with the more liberal members around here on a lot of their arguments. Even though I'm a slightly right leaning centrist, you are making it a no contest.

Sure, everyone has their own views and opinions of how things should or shouldn't work. What you're doing is completely different. You're making vague statements, then getting upset when someone makes a comment based on what you said. You keep using the response that we're all misunderstanding you, or that what we are assuming isn't what you're actually saying. Problem is, you aren't really saying anything definitively either way on any topic, so why are you getting upset when none of us can figure out what your point of view is?

Just make it simple and say what it is you want to say, instead of leading us in one direction, then clamping down and denying everything when we take that route as your point of view?

From what me, and several other members here have gathered based on your posts, is that as long as the government doesn't do anything to change your cozy lifestyle, you're ok with it and **** everybody else. You can't honestly believe that any piece of legislation could really work that way. We all want our way, but in reality it doesn't work that way.

You have to make compromises. It isn't like the government is telling you to pay your neighbor a salary. They're taking money that would be getting taken from you regardless, and there is nothing you can do or say that can change that. So honestly, why do you care where the money goes if you're powerless to do anything about it?

Trust me, there are several things in the government I completely hate and disagree with, and that I argue against. With you though, you are coming across as having an attitude that's basically **** you as long as I'm happy. Where's the compassion? I'm sure you'll say that isn't what you're trying to say, but if it isn't, please tell us what you are trying to say and it would make the debate flow a lot smoother.


1) my mission in life isn't to placate or convince you or anybody else. let's get that straight. I don't give a flippin XYZ whether others find my views palatable or not. Agree with the Liberal leaning folks - not my burden! They are the ones who have created this mess and they have no solutions. Their schtick is to turn to people like me and state "ok...I get it.....we messed up and you aren't happy...ok....tell me how to fix the mess I created". not my chord of wood to haul. they need to fix their own messes or enough folks will band together to undo the whole sorry mess.

2) I have struggled with the gross simplicity and inanity of how ideas...really emotions....have been expressed in all these threads. I apologize in advance...but not one concrete idea has been advanced....just a boatload of emotional anecdotes...."I know this person"...."what about the poor"....blah, blah, blah. the only marginally analytic idea has been eliminating waste. so...before wagging that finger...go back and make sure the same hand isn't pointed in yours and others' direction. the programs are broke. they are busting the bank. the burden isn't on me to propose fixes...it's on those people who want to sustain them.

you have to go back to first principles. that's what I have been trying to get across. tweaking unsustainable programs won't cut it. throughout all of this my interlocutors have been very studious about not addressing the rabbit I set running vis temporary support vice permanent assistance, assistance vice entitlements.

3) what?!!!! I have 70+ give or few allotted to me. It aint much and I'm going to make every moment count. I damn well care about where the money I worked for just to hand it over to the government goes. just as much as the folks who care about supporting NPR, Planned Parenthood, etc.

entitlements based on what? what is the principle in play that demands I work for others? what is the moral rule that demands 50% of the population support the other 49% without any notion of bounds? how does one arbitrate profound differences when it comes to conceptions of "social good" and morality? "don't worry...be happy"...that's it? that is the logic in play in deciding what society can afford? where it should invest? what did you think was going to happen when someone like Obama came along and tried to redirect social investment into areas favored by roughly 20% of the population? again...he said ad pukem.....no one is disputing the need for a social safety net. no one is arguiing for a return to the dark ages or unfettered laissez-faire/survival of the fittest capitalism. we are asking for a reassessment of what "entitlements" means.......a relook at the tradeoffs vis liberty and centralized/government control over our lives......a revisit on what each member of society's obligations are to the community.....a reassessment of the competency of centralized government in realizing these "progressive" objectives.......an assessment on how much better/worse our lives have become over the last several decades.....some notion or agreement on what end state is supposed to be....a discussion about return for investments made......perhaps even a grand discussion on what really is "fair".
 
1) my mission in life isn't to placate or convince you or anybody else. let's get that straight. I don't give a flippin XYZ whether others find my views palatable or not. Agree with the Liberal leaning folks - not my burden! They are the ones who have created this mess and they have no solutions. Their schtick is to turn to people like me and state "ok...I get it.....we messed up and you aren't happy...ok....tell me how to fix the mess I created". not my chord of wood to haul. they need to fix their own messes or enough folks will band together to undo the whole sorry mess.

2) I have struggled with the gross simplicity and inanity of how ideas...really emotions....have been expressed in all these threads. I apologize in advance...but not one concrete idea has been advanced....just a boatload of emotional anecdotes...."I know this person"...."what about the poor"....blah, blah, blah. the only marginally analytic idea has been eliminating waste. so...before wagging that finger...go back and make sure the same hand isn't pointed in yours and others' direction. the programs are broke. they are busting the bank. the burden isn't on me to propose fixes...it's on those people who want to sustain them.

you have to go back to first principles. that's what I have been trying to get across. tweaking unsustainable programs won't cut it. throughout all of this my interlocutors have been very studious about not addressing the rabbit I set running vis temporary support vice permanent assistance, assistance vice entitlements.

3) what?!!!! I have 70+ give or few allotted to me. It aint much and I'm going to make every moment count. I damn well care about where the money I worked for just to hand it over to the government goes. just as much as the folks who care about supporting NPR, Planned Parenthood, etc.

entitlements based on what? what is the principle in play that demands I work for others? what is the moral rule that demands 50% of the population support the other 49% without any notion of bounds? how does one arbitrate profound differences when it comes to conceptions of "social good" and morality? "don't worry...be happy"...that's it? that is the logic in play in deciding what society can afford? where it should invest? what did you think was going to happen when someone like Obama came along and tried to redirect social investment into areas favored by roughly 20% of the population? again...he said ad pukem.....no one is disputing the need for a social safety net. no one is arguiing for a return to the dark ages or unfettered laissez-faire/survival of the fittest capitalism. we are asking for a reassessment of what "entitlements" means.......a relook at the tradeoffs vis liberty and centralized/government control over our lives......a revisit on what each member of society's obligations are to the community.....a reassessment of the competency of centralized government in realizing these "progressive" objectives.......an assessment on how much better/worse our lives have become over the last several decades.....some notion or agreement on what end state is supposed to be....a discussion about return for investments made......perhaps even a grand discussion on what really is "fair".

1) You love making numbered lists :D
2) I agree that Liberals have ****ed things up beyond repair in some cases, but if you truly think Conservatives had absolutely no role in getting us to this point as well, then there's no help for you anyway, and anything anyone tries to tell you is irrelevant anyway.
3) This is filler before number 4.
4) On your second point, you are being hypocritical, because you also have not actually expressed a solution, and are completely basing everything on emotion. However misguided our emotions can be, it's what ultimately decides everything, so for you to throw that away like it's meaningless is asinine. We learn from our mistakes. If there is never an example to follow, making it up as we go along is sure to backfire, which is why things get tweaked.
5) Everything that doesn't work has to be tweaked to make it work. When Thomas Edison stole the idea for the light bulb (fact, I saw it on the History channel lol) he didn't say hmmmmm, this idea won't work, so instead of working with the points that will work, I'm just gonna start all over from scratch and do something completely different. Another example that might make sense is when you first got hired into your current job at entry level. You didn't know as much as guys that have been running the thing for years, but they helped you along the way. They didn't just say this guy's an idiot, let's get someone we don't have to train.
6)You're completely lost on the whole matter of support of your fellow man, but a lot of people who have plenty of money (I don't know if you do, but it's certainly the image you are portraying) tend to be. If you think social programs, or whatever else you want to call them, are doing no good - here's another example that might make sense to you. It's a hypothetical situation based on the world you seem to want.....

You own a business. Business is doing good, and you're making a killing. Your company grows, so you need to hire more employees to fuel the expansion of your company. Many employees are trained through government provided or subsidized social programs such as adult learning centers, employment commissions, etc. In your world, those programs are wasteful spending, so they were cut and no longer exist. So now you have to not only hire more employees, but you have to spend time and money training them.

Once they are fully trained, they begin working full time. Say several of the females start getting pregnant. You don't pay them enough to afford everything they need for themselves and their new child, so they are all begging you for raises. You refuse, so they all find work elsewhere and you have to spend more money and more time retraining new workers.

You suddenly have several workers who have sick children and need to take time off from work. Since there is no health care assistance, and you aren't providing any, and there are no government daycare reimbursement programs, they have to take off from work to care for their sick children. This slows down production, and cuts into your bottom line.

Then a recession hits. Your employees are starving, but there are no food stamps or similar programs, and you damn sure aren't cutting more into your profit and giving them a raise, so they all have to get second jobs. As a result of being overworked from their second jobs, they come to work tired, slow, lazy, etc. and production can no longer meet demand. So you start losing orders and money, and you fire them all. Back to square one, you have to spend more time and money hiring and training new employees, so for the last year, you have basically made next to nothing once you factor in rent, salaries, supplies, maintenance, etc.

Once you realize business is not sustainable, you have to sell your business for pennies on the dollar, and go back to work for meager wages elsewhere and work your way back to the top. But if these current government programs were still in place, that wouldn't have been an issue, because everything would have taken care of itself.

So say they do scrap all these programs and start over from scratch. Then they make them absolutely perfect, a thousand times better than the originals, but to keep it from becoming corrupt, they are spending a lot more for oversight.

Let me ask you, would you rather pay 1) less for a program that helps the good and the bad, or 2) pay noticeably more for a program that only gives help to the people who truly need it, as long as you aren't getting screwed?
 
1) You love making numbered lists :D
2) I agree that Liberals have ****ed things up beyond repair in some cases, but if you truly think Conservatives had absolutely no role in getting us to this point as well, then there's no help for you anyway, and anything anyone tries to tell you is irrelevant anyway.
3) This is filler before number 4.
4) On your second point, you are being hypocritical, because you also have not actually expressed a solution, and are completely basing everything on emotion. However misguided our emotions can be, it's what ultimately decides everything, so for you to throw that away like it's meaningless is asinine. We learn from our mistakes. If there is never an example to follow, making it up as we go along is sure to backfire, which is why things get tweaked.
5) Everything that doesn't work has to be tweaked to make it work. When Thomas Edison stole the idea for the light bulb (fact, I saw it on the History channel lol) he didn't say hmmmmm, this idea won't work, so instead of working with the points that will work, I'm just gonna start all over from scratch and do something completely different. Another example that might make sense is when you first got hired into your current job at entry level. You didn't know as much as guys that have been running the thing for years, but they helped you along the way. They didn't just say this guy's an idiot, let's get someone we don't have to train.
6)You're completely lost on the whole matter of support of your fellow man, but a lot of people who have plenty of money (I don't know if you do, but it's certainly the image you are portraying) tend to be. If you think social programs, or whatever else you want to call them, are doing no good - here's another example that might make sense to you. It's a hypothetical situation based on the world you seem to want.....

You own a business. Business is doing good, and you're making a killing. Your company grows, so you need to hire more employees to fuel the expansion of your company. Many employees are trained through government provided or subsidized social programs such as adult learning centers, employment commissions, etc. In your world, those programs are wasteful spending, so they were cut and no longer exist. So now you have to not only hire more employees, but you have to spend time and money training them.

Once they are fully trained, they begin working full time. Say several of the females start getting pregnant. You don't pay them enough to afford everything they need for themselves and their new child, so they are all begging you for raises. You refuse, so they all find work elsewhere and you have to spend more money and more time retraining new workers.

You suddenly have several workers who have sick children and need to take time off from work. Since there is no health care assistance, and you aren't providing any, and there are no government daycare reimbursement programs, they have to take off from work to care for their sick children. This slows down production, and cuts into your bottom line.

Then a recession hits. Your employees are starving, but there are no food stamps or similar programs, and you damn sure aren't cutting more into your profit and giving them a raise, so they all have to get second jobs. As a result of being overworked from their second jobs, they come to work tired, slow, lazy, etc. and production can no longer meet demand. So you start losing orders and money, and you fire them all. Back to square one, you have to spend more time and money hiring and training new employees, so for the last year, you have basically made next to nothing once you factor in rent, salaries, supplies, maintenance, etc.

Once you realize business is not sustainable, you have to sell your business for pennies on the dollar, and go back to work for meager wages elsewhere and work your way back to the top. But if these current government programs were still in place, that wouldn't have been an issue, because everything would have taken care of itself.

So say they do scrap all these programs and start over from scratch. Then they make them absolutely perfect, a thousand times better than the originals, but to keep it from becoming corrupt, they are spending a lot more for oversight.

Let me ask you, would you rather pay 1) less for a program that helps the good and the bad, or 2) pay noticeably more for a program that only gives help to the people who truly need it, as long as you aren't getting screwed?


I want limits set. open ended commitments are irrational.

2) Conservatives did not push the open ended committments on the big three: medicare, medicaid, social security. spinning your own generalizations now. conservatives have pushed for larger defense expenditures.

3) emotions do not decide everything. it might be just a casual observation...but the entire current of human history has been a move away from emotion toward rational decision-making. not sure why you didn't address what lies at the heart of all these exchanges in the first place - value systems.

5) tweaking something to work doesn't mean it should be worked in the first place.

6) rhetoric. and a strawman to boot. you and Goaldie just won't cross that line from assistance to entitlement. I don't blame you. hard to feel noble when the implementation requires government coercion. additonally, you persist in displaying discrete examples. there again...I don't blame you for that approach. it conveniently sidesteps the impacts in the aggregate. as for the income snub.....I find that amusing from one as intelligent as you....it's rhetoric based on a silly assumption: those with money only care about that money and themselves....and ignores all the other equities/tradeoffs/competing outcomes that active lives challenge each of us with. if it satisifies your income purient interest....I am not...and have never been...rich.

in the end...here's what I am hearing: you and Goaldie have a set of values that leads you to support these programs. these values..in the end...trump all other considerations. I have a different system. I do not accord the same "at all costs" measure you do to helping those in need. that, however, is not the same as the strawman you two have tried to push - that this is tantamount to arguiing that no assistance should be provided at all. that's undergraduate, dorm room thinking. like everything in life...I see this as one among many competing resource demands. both at the individual and societal level resources are constrained and have to be allocated across multiple needs. as a discriminator...I can support resources allocated to these programs for short-term needs. I do not support permament and ever expanding entitlements - and this is what has been happening. this is what you and Goaldie refuse to engage on. it's not about a corrupt few as you have tried to argue...it's how the systems themselves have been rewickered.

while we're on the subject....so what decision would you make for a fixed set of resources:

- support families whose income earners are unemployed

- support cancer patients who need dialysis machines

society cannot afford to satisfy all needs. choices have to be made. help your fellow man is not a sufficient criterion for making the choice. or, as I suspect, do you believe that all our incomes (short of necessities) should be turned over to the government to make these sorts of viscereal decisions? if not everyone can be saved....what is the criteria for deciding who and how many? and what has to be sacrficed to support your position?

you can see in another thread my other reason for not fully complying with this social contract......its selectivity.
 
I want limits set. open ended commitments are irrational.
I agree, but it's the governments making those commitments, not the people. Blame the bastards we elected, that's what I do. Then when election time rolls back around, I vote against the idiots that do things like this.

There are many thing about Obama that I hate. However, even if he was the greatest leader we've ever had :)laugh: that was hard to write, forgive me) the fact that he pushed to extend unemployment benefits past where they already were overly extended at - is reason enough for me to vote against him in the next election. I worked my ass off my whole life. When I needed unemployment, the system failed me. They told me I was denied, no reason given. Then I appealed. Again denied, no reason given. Then the turds I see in my neighborhood collecting it for 3 years or whatever the limit is now, aren't making any attempt to change their situation but the bare minimum. They require you to apply for I think 5 jobs per week. You don't even have to apply for jobs you qualify for. This is a loophole these bastards use to abuse the system.

They know if they keep applying for jobs they can't get, they will never have to worry about losing that check. Then when time runs up, they will do their required 6 months or however long it is of work, then start the cycle over again.

2) Conservatives did not push the open ended committments on the big three: medicare, medicaid, social security. spinning your own generalizations now. conservatives have pushed for larger defense expenditures.
While I agree with funding these 3, I do not support open ended funding. I also favor expansion of the military. These two views alone confuse most people I know. Apparently it's taboo to support both.

3) emotions do not decide everything. it might be just a casual observation...but the entire current of human history has been a move away from emotion toward rational decision-making. not sure why you didn't address what lies at the heart of all these exchanges in the first place - value systems.
You are right in a way, but value systems have their roots in emotions, do they not? As far as rational decision making, we are still talking about the United States government, right?

5) tweaking something to work doesn't mean it should be worked in the first place.
Doesn't mean it should be eliminated either.

6) rhetoric. and a strawman to boot. you and Goaldie just won't cross that line from assistance to entitlement.
It's because we don't view every applicant as the same. You have a view that not everybody, but most people, are on the programs permanently and abusing the system. That isn't the case.

People need help. If you have worked and contributed, yes, you are entitled to receive assistance. See how that works? The system isn't as weak as you want to make it out to be. There are rules. Some slacker out of high school that has never worked, can't drop out and go to Social Services with his hand out. They will tell him to go **** himself, as they should. There are requirements. Even if they aren't always tough enough, they are there.

....it's rhetoric based on a silly assumption: those with money only care about that money and themselves
I said that based on a statement that you made yourself. When I get done eating dinner, I will copy and paste those quotes from your mouth if you honestly don't remember saying them.

I am not...and have never been...rich.
The latest report says the majority of people polled worth over 3 million don't consider themselves rich. I'm not saying you are or aren't, but it's all subjective.

in the end...here's what I am hearing: you and Goaldie have a set of values that leads you to support these programs. these values..in the end...trump all other considerations. I have a different system. I do not accord the same "at all costs" measure you do to helping those in need.
I can't make assumptions about what your beliefs or values are, I can just make assumptions based on what you've been saying in here. Based on your words here, you have a **** you if it doesn't benefit me attitude. Don't be ashamed of it, we're all like that in some respect.

I can support resources allocated to these programs for short-term needs. I do not support permament and ever expanding entitlements
I agree with you, as I am sure Goald does too. However, you're basically saying we are making the opposite argument, which neither of us have.

it's not about a corrupt few as you have tried to argue...it's how the systems themselves have been rewickered.
It's the government doing it, not the people. Don't punish the people for a benefit program the government is too inept to properly run or structure.

society cannot afford to satisfy all needs. choices have to be made. help your fellow man is not a sufficient criterion for making the choice. or, as I suspect, do you believe that all our incomes (short of necessities) should be turned over to the government to make these sorts of viscereal decisions? if not everyone can be saved....what is the criteria for deciding who and how many? and what has to be sacrficed to support your position?
I do not support giving all my money to the fed. That's a Liberal ideal. I actually have the opposite view. But **** needs to be paid for, and nobody will willingly give any portion of their money away if they don't have to, so where would that leave us? Everything would collapse.
 
I can't make assumptions about what your beliefs or values are, I can just make assumptions based on what you've been saying in here. Based on your words here, you have a **** you if it doesn't benefit me attitude. Don't be ashamed of it, we're all like that in some respect.


well...you do make me laugh!

no.....I have been careful to map out my reasons. I make decisions just like you do. I have dependents just like you do. I allocate resources just like you do. I just don't dole them out in the same ratios you likely prefer.

you keep defaulting to the same strawman! while I appreciate the tactic and employ it myself for effect from time to time.....it's a distractor. even that logic doesn't get you far - there are many paths I could walk that "benefit" me. you seem to be rather limited in your notion of what benefit means. nonetheless.....I do prefer to be the one making the choice. should I place my discretionary income into a computer course at W&M for my 12 year old this Summer or donate it to the Haitian Recovery Fund. You tell me.
 
well...you do make me laugh!

no.....I have been careful to map out my reasons. I make decisions just like you do. I have dependents just like you do. I allocate resources just like you do. I just don't dole them out in the same ratios you likely prefer.

you keep defaulting to the same strawman! while I appreciate the tactic and employ it myself for effect from time to time.....it's a distractor. even that logic doesn't get you far - there are many paths I could walk that "benefit" me. you seem to be rather limited in your notion of what benefit means. nonetheless.....I do prefer to be the one making the choice. should I place my discretionary income into a computer course at W&M for my 12 year old this Summer or donate it to the Haitian Recovery Fund. You tell me.
I'll be blunt with that one - **** Haiti. I have friends who have been down there, and got robbed and beaten while trying to help. Haiti is going to hell in a hand basket regardless of what anyone does, so why prolong it?

As far as Japan goes, if I was in a position to help in any way, I absolutely would. However, everything is about priorities. Funding something for your child can lead to him/her to prosper, along with their children, grandchildren, etc. They could learn something that could help them change the world. No matter what, my kids always come first, no matter what. Nothing will ever change that. Anyone who disagrees is a ****ty parent.
 
I'll be blunt with that one - **** Haiti. I have friends who have been down there, and got robbed and beaten while trying to help. Haiti is going to hell in a hand basket regardless of what anyone does, so why prolong it?

As far as Japan goes, if I was in a position to help in any way, I absolutely would. However, everything is about priorities. Funding something for your child can lead to him/her to prosper, along with their children, grandchildren, etc. They could learn something that could help them change the world. No matter what, my kids always come first, no matter what. Nothing will ever change that. Anyone who disagrees is a ****ty parent.

how about the crooks....excuse me...wonderful Americans....in Americorps?

see the problem? your notion of assistance to those in need is principled and honorable. the problem is that the the brains sitting behind all these programs don't care about that...that is not the overriding objective. that's what I am getting at. I believe all these programs need a serious overall....they have been corrupted, are being exploited, and really serve a much broader agenda. that they are bankrupting the country will force an economic armageddon.
 
to be clear here: my problem with most of these organizations/programs...especially as conceived by Obama et al, is that they are designed to create dependencies, expand the nanny state, expand the size of government permanently, pass more and more control over our lives to government bureaucrats....

so...how do we achieve the noble ends Goaldie/Extreme support without moving into the real power/control objectives Obama and the Left are not so furtively setting up?

watch what's going on in Britain carefully...that is our future.
 
well...you do make me laugh!

no.....I have been careful to map out my reasons. I make decisions just like you do. I have dependents just like you do. I allocate resources just like you do. I just don't dole them out in the same ratios you likely prefer.

you keep defaulting to the same strawman! while I appreciate the tactic and employ it myself for effect from time to time.....it's a distractor. even that logic doesn't get you far - there are many paths I could walk that "benefit" me. you seem to be rather limited in your notion of what benefit means. nonetheless.....I do prefer to be the one making the choice. should I place my discretionary income into a computer course at W&M for my 12 year old this Summer or donate it to the Haitian Recovery Fund. You tell me.

You forgot give it to the government :)
 
considering entitlement programs make up about 45 percent of teh deficit something needs to be done Medicare has an estimated 90 trillion in unfunded claims add that to the deficit when those get claimed and we are looking at a 100 trillion dollar deficit

I think the churches need to help out more like they did back in the day churches took care of communities now with the government running things churches no longer do this job
 
217031_167662103292156_114364638621903_373758_1109872_n.jpg


too funny!
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Help Users
As we enjoy today's conversations, let's remember our dear friends 'Docsandy', Sandy Zier-Teitler, and 'Posse Lover', Michael Huffman, who would dearly love to be here with us today! We love and miss you guys ❤

You haven't joined any rooms.

    You haven't joined any rooms.
    Top