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Thread: JS on Teachers

  1. #1

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    James Madison

    Default JS on Teachers

    My wife is a teacher and was alternating between extreme anger and laughter at this clip. Enjoy!

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...---angry-curds
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    Thank God your wife lives in a right to work State...ooops...that's not the case in virtuos WI.

    Class warfare rhetoric is all these people have left - that and the race card is all they ever have in the tank. It is my fervent hope that they are nailed to the wall. Gee.....why is it...

    - they don't play up the speach by a NEA leader in 2009 in which he stated the first priority is not teaching BUT POWER?

    - why is it that in some districts in WI a teacher can call in sick..then take over a substitute role the same day...and charge overtime?

    - why is it the media isn't reporting the experience Governor Scott incurred as Mayor of Milwaukee shaping his approach to this fiscal problem?

    - why does the so called "rights" of the public worker trump the rights of taxpayers?

    - why do these Unions fight school vouchers so strenuously? (i.e., use their paid for Democrats to prevent options for destitute families)...or more directly....are anti-choice?

    - why do these Unions fight right to work initiatives?

    - why do these Unions fight merit based promotion systems?

    - for that matter...why are these people so obviously violence prone?

    This is about power. Public servants are paid by taxpayers. Those who work for Unions (all of them in WI) are charged annual dues. The dues fund a nice lifestyle for fat cat Union leadership (yes...class warfare can be a fun game). Millions are funneled into Democrat candidate campaigns....the elected cut sweetheart deals for the Unions. It's a totally corrupt process in which the taxpayer is screwed.. This isn't the noble pursuit of rights as painted by the lamestream media.

    but...you know....sauce for the goose and all that.....I do think the military should be allowed to Unionize. Collective rights on whether or not to participate in the next war.....sounds like an attractive idea! It's a right dang it!
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    Unions are very good at making their product too expensive to produce.
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    FS, generalize much? My wife is a member of the teachers union ONLY bc she is in an unstable, difficult situation and knows the union will have her back if her school system screws with her. As they have done before to other people. I know if your world, unions are evil and employers are good and do no wrong. I wish i could live in that world, i really do. Because the world I live in allows me to see that the teacher's union is too large, has too much influence and is for the most part evil, BUT (you knew it was coming) without it, the school systems would be just as bad if not worse.

    If would like to have a serious conversation without your ridiculous generalities, tell me. I can see both sides on this one. The teacher's union in WI is preposterous. But to lump all teachers together under that umbrella is just as preposterous. I would be delighted to intelligently discuss the differences.

    As to video, i thought it was funny. So did my wife. I think it's funny as **** when people say teachers make too much money. My wife hasn't had a raise in 3 years. She is looking for a new position to get away from the craziness in her current school system. I see the hours she works, and given the number of times in my life i have had people laughingly tell me that they work at least twice as hard as the guy in Office Space, while in the private sector, I generally laugh AT the fools who say teachers make too much money. Apparently, I'm laughing at you.
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    Teachers already make jack squat, and they ONLY make that much because they HAVE unions. Get rid of teacher unions, and teachers will be crapped on way more than they already are. Schools & education are already some of the first things that get their funding cut. Look at the documentary "Waiting for Superman" - our school systems are in the toilet, and going down fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    FS, generalize much? My wife is a member of the teachers union ONLY bc she is in an unstable, difficult situation and knows the union will have her back if her school system screws with her. As they have done before to other people. I know if your world, unions are evil and employers are good and do no wrong. I wish i could live in that world, i really do. Because the world I live in allows me to see that the teacher's union is too large, has too much influence and is for the most part evil, BUT (you knew it was coming) without it, the school systems would be just as bad if not worse.

    If would like to have a serious conversation without your ridiculous generalities, tell me. I can see both sides on this one. The teacher's union in WI is preposterous. But to lump all teachers together under that umbrella is just as preposterous. I would be delighted to intelligently discuss the differences.

    As to video, i thought it was funny. So did my wife. I think it's funny as **** when people say teachers make too much money. My wife hasn't had a raise in 3 years. She is looking for a new position to get away from the craziness in her current school system. I see the hours she works, and given the number of times in my life i have had people laughingly tell me that they work at least twice as hard as the guy in Office Space, while in the private sector, I generally laugh AT the fools who say teachers make too much money. Apparently, I'm laughing at you.
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    Goaldie..perhaps I need to explain things in basic terminology.

    1) There is a difference between individuals and the expression of their collective political powers. Individuals can/are decent people...but their policies AS A GROUP can be invidious..as can their corrupt leadership cutting backroom deals. Listen sometime to what Trumpka, The SEIU guys and others are really saying and what they are really after.

    2) We aren't talking about employers as an analogue to private industry. We are talking about government and taxpayers. Not the same thing.

    3) I don't care whether you laugh at me or your own, private, apparently irrational decisions to engage in employment that doesn't pay what you feel is deserved. not my concern - any more than you care how those payments impact the family bugets of those who fund it through taxes.

    4) Spare me the weepy music.....neither you nor Lanky address the core issue here: how the process has been corrupted by forcing taxpayers to essentially pay for Democrat elections that in turn return the bribes with cushy benefits deals - that's what's going on in WI. This is about power...not what's best for taxpayers, teachers or students.

    5) You and Lanky don't answer any of the charges about how this collective power is used to prevent initiatives that benefit students. Why? because that's not really the issue for Unions. again...it's about power first and foremost. That's what the Union leadership is focused on - and always has been. The NEA President made that very clear.

    Spare me all the condescending blather about "intellectual" discussion. The dynamic is always the same in this blog...and it is always anything but intellectual...or honest. I have repeated myself a dozen times on this. I have passed from "reasonable" discussion to the point of view that the power nodes that are creating these problems have to be DESTROYED. There has been 60 years of lying and manipulation that has led to the current unfundable predicament. There is going to be pain all around. It's already happening in DoD in major ways - I have no qualms with people who argue that we need to clean up the systemic/process disfunctionalities that create these problems in DoD. Well...we need to apply this cleansing mindset across the board in all government.

    I understand there are people like you and Lanky who don't care one iota about using the powers of government (i.e., threat of financial ruin/jail time) to force income transfers that favor your treasured notions of fairness. That is your right. In times of growing wealth this was affordable and could be masked. We don't live in those times.

    btw...how much should teachers be paid? just what benefits are they "entitled" to? how much should taxpayers be put on the hook for? why should they have collective bargaining "rights" against the taxpayer? should the taxpayer have the option...if this is a negotiation...to fire teachers who do not perform according to commnuity esatblished stndards? should taxpayers have the right to set curricula and monitor what teachers actually teach or should the NEA (and its political agenda) be the driver? There's a a lot more in scope here than just a bunch of teachers supported by bused in Union thugs in WI trying to disrupt the business of the people because of a potential outcome unfavorable to their long-term interests.

    If your wife teaches in VA...VA is a right to work state...something Unions fight tooth and nail.

    Your MO is always the same. You see things from the individual's perspective, follow your empathetic responses and eventually arrive at a decision that addresses the individual's problem. even more directly...it certanly appears that your decisions often issue from "my wife needs"...."my brother needs"...rationale. that is entirely understandable and justified FROM YOUR SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES. that doesn't make it right or the correct way to go as a policy. it doesn't address all the costs and burden sharing that goes along with this. it almost inevitably involves government forced income transfers from taxpayers (the 51%) to those in need. there are multiple parties with different interests n that conversation.

    let's at least be honest about what's really going on. mismanagement of Federal/State/local budgets, over promising future entitlements, servicing political interest group priorities to ensure campaign money flows, fighting costly wars ineptly has resulted in a historic crisis point of funding shortfalls. The political powers are maneuvering on all sides to exploit this crisis to service objectives that fall well beyond just resolving the immediate revenue/expenditure gaps. Republicans are trying to seriously cripple the Democratic party by reducing/eliminating a key funding source. Republicans are trying to force their vision of limited central government, local control, individual freedom. Democrats are trying to sustain and increase buget rewickering that emphasizes wealth redistribution according to their notions of fairness and social justice. To do this..Democrats favor centralized government and across the board regulation that defines what individuals and other social entities can do. This budget crisis is really just a touchpoint for this much deeper, fundamental struggle that has been underway for close to 100 years.
    Last edited by fansince62; 03-02-11 at 10:55 AM.
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  7. #7

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    I'll try to type slower this time, in the hopes you will understand my position better.

    I hate the NEA. My mother was a teacher for 30+ years and never joined the union. Not once. The ONLY reason my wife joined is because the school system she teaches in is corrupt, dishonest, and problematic at best. Neither of us can stand the union, ,and it honestly turns both of our stomachs to give them any money. I agree with a lot of your post regarding the evil of the NEA.

    Where I differ with you is my ability to see both sides, that there is a possibility that having unions is a necessary evil. You, and many of my blindly Republican following friends seem to believe that regular workers do not need representation or a check in their favor. Somehow, even after the complete lack of regulation that completely ****ed our economy three years ago, you people still seem to think that these corporations and/or governments can do no wrong. I don't get it. The organization my wife works for would screw her over in a minute, as would many school systems around the country if not for the threat of reprisal from the union. Listen very carefully to this: I do not like the power the union currently has. Nor do i like the back room deals with Democrats and all the other shady dealings. But I do NOT have enough faith in people in general to believe that without the unions, teachers would be treated fairly. I would be open to discussing what the union ought to look like in a perfect world, though it will never happen that way.

    To your larger point, whether you intend to or not, your posts always come across as detesting the Dems and defending the Repubs. I don't get this. Is the teachers union a blotch of the Dems? Hell yeah. No argument at all. Are the banks a blotch on the Repubs? Do you not think back room deals abound in that arena? Are you going to try to convince me that those back room deals are not nearly as damaging as the teachers union? Go ahead, I relish your verbal contortions.

    And yes, i do take the individual's perspective into account. You act like being a human is a bad thing. There are times to be driven by numbers only, and other times to consider the human element. There are moron teachers who need to be replaced, we need to come up with a way of measuring teacher performance to cull the field. No argument. And if my wife is found wanting, so be it. Your little crack about finding work that doesn't pay well enough is very revealing, and untimely sad. My wife teaches because she loves children and wants to help them succeed. She wants to make a difference, as cheesy as it sounds. And yes, she could do other things she is qualified for and would make more money with, but she does what she loves. I am sorry if that idea is lost on you. Genuinely sorry.

    And for the record, neither of us whine about her pay. We are both thankful for her salary, until morons try to tell us and everyone else that teachers are overpaid. Tell ya what, take her job for a year at the salary you think is appropriate, and let me know what you think at the end of that year. Until then, hush.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    I'll try to type slower this time, in the hopes you will understand my position better.

    I hate the NEA. My mother was a teacher for 30+ years and never joined the union. Not once. The ONLY reason my wife joined is because the school system she teaches in is corrupt, dishonest, and problematic at best. Neither of us can stand the union, ,and it honestly turns both of our stomachs to give them any money. I agree with a lot of your post regarding the evil of the NEA.

    Where I differ with you is my ability to see both sides, that there is a possibility that having unions is a necessary evil. You, and many of my blindly Republican following friends seem to believe that regular workers do not need representation or a check in their favor. Somehow, even after the complete lack of regulation that completely ****ed our economy three years ago, you people still seem to think that these corporations and/or governments can do no wrong. I don't get it. The organization my wife works for would screw her over in a minute, as would many school systems around the country if not for the threat of reprisal from the union. Listen very carefully to this: I do not like the power the union currently has. Nor do i like the back room deals with Democrats and all the other shady dealings. But I do NOT have enough faith in people in general to believe that without the unions, teachers would be treated fairly. I would be open to discussing what the union ought to look like in a perfect world, though it will never happen that way.

    To your larger point, whether you intend to or not, your posts always come across as detesting the Dems and defending the Repubs. I don't get this. Is the teachers union a blotch of the Dems? Hell yeah. No argument at all. Are the banks a blotch on the Repubs? Do you not think back room deals abound in that arena? Are you going to try to convince me that those back room deals are not nearly as damaging as the teachers union? Go ahead, I relish your verbal contortions.

    And yes, i do take the individual's perspective into account. You act like being a human is a bad thing. There are times to be driven by numbers only, and other times to consider the human element. There are moron teachers who need to be replaced, we need to come up with a way of measuring teacher performance to cull the field. No argument. And if my wife is found wanting, so be it. Your little crack about finding work that doesn't pay well enough is very revealing, and untimely sad. My wife teaches because she loves children and wants to help them succeed. She wants to make a difference, as cheesy as it sounds. And yes, she could do other things she is qualified for and would make more money with, but she does what she loves. I am sorry if that idea is lost on you. Genuinely sorry.

    And for the record, neither of us whine about her pay. We are both thankful for her salary, until morons try to tell us and everyone else that teachers are overpaid. Tell ya what, take her job for a year at the salary you think is appropriate, and let me know what you think at the end of that year. Until then, hush.
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    1) I haven't said she was underpaid. I don't care what she is paid. I care if I am taxed to support that pay and benefits.

    2) I explained my position which you understandably avoid addressing: the power play that really underlies all of this....the inherent corruption, the vested interests that produce dysfunctional incentives, the obvious violence, the lying and manipulation......my focus is on what the Union leadership goals truly are and how Democratic leadership has an unholy relationship with those Union heads that serves totally unrelated objectives...often to the dteriment of the very people who are supposed to be served by public officials/servants. that is the reality.

    3) I do detest the Dems..they are the ones who postured themselves as paragons of virtue....and have proceeded to be anything but. who's kidding whom here? I'm no big fan of Repubs. I have also stated....ad vomitum.....that I view them as the lesser evil.

    4) I have laid out what I think this is really all about. You are free to agree or disagree...but don't spoonfeed me more dirt and water that entirely sidesteps that set of ideas.

    5) I'll reiterate...yet again....another concept: there are individuals and there is the political expression of their GROUP interests. It is the latter that is horse manure in my book when it comes to Unions. I'll sidestep the whole discussion of public servant and taxpayer equities since you obviously want to maintain the fiction that that relationship is the same as private employer/employee.

    btw...wall street contributed far more money to Dems in the last Pres election than to Repubs.

    there's no discussion here since we are talking about two different things.....so...I'll return your euphemism...HUSH!

    the teachers work for me and every other taxpayer. they don't like the terms? go find a job someplace else.
    Last edited by fansince62; 03-02-11 at 07:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    1) I haven't said she was underpaid. I don't care what she is paid. I care if I am taxed to support that pay and benefits.
    Sooooo... now you want to privatize education? Interesting arguments on both sides. You should state that as your argument if that is correct, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    2) I explained my position which you understandably avoid addressing: the power play that really underlies all of this....the inherent corruption, the vested interests that produce dysfunctional incentives, the obvious violence, the lying and manipulation......my focus is on what the Union leadership goals truly are and how Democratic leadership has an unholy relationship with those Union heads that serves totally unrelated objectives...often to the dteriment of the very people who are supposed to be served by public officials/servants. that is the reality.
    With all due respect, WTF are you talking about? Are you suggesting that I like the union? Do you have reading comprehension problems? I believe I spelled out my position above: I hate the union. However, as stated above, I can see BOTH sides. The unions provide a check against the corruption of the government officials in charge of education that you apparently are unwilling or unable to admit exists.

    Again, I am in no way, shape or form condoning the actions of the union in WI. That is detestable, and as my wife noted, she finds it deplorable that the teachers have been willing to be away from their children for so long.

    BUT. Without the union, teacher's working conditions would be worse than they already are. There needs to be a balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    3) I do detest the Dems..they are the ones who postured themselves as paragons of virtue....and have proceeded to be anything but. who's kidding whom here? I'm no big fan of Repubs. I have also stated....ad vomitum.....that I view them as the lesser evil.
    I find this funny. I used to be just like you. Virtually a carbon copy. Until I realized THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES. None. Zippo. You can talk all you want about how the Dems are duplicitous, and I will agree with you. And then point out the Repubs do the same damn thing. There is no lesser evil. Just evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    4) I have laid out what I think this is really all about. You are free to agree or disagree...but don't spoonfeed me more dirt and water that entirely sidesteps that set of ideas.
    Before you insult me again, I would ask you to go back and actually read my post. You will find if you take the time to read that I sidestepped nothing, and addressed what you asked me to.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    5) I'll reiterate...yet again....another concept: there are individuals and there is the political expression of their GROUP interests. It is the latter that is horse manure in my book when it comes to Unions. I'll sidestep the whole discussion of public servant and taxpayer equities since you obviously want to maintain the fiction that that relationship is the same as private employer/employee.

    btw...wall street contributed far more money to Dems in the last Pres election than to Repubs.

    there's no discussion here since we are talking about two different things.....so...I'll return your euphemism...HUSH!

    the teachers work for me and every other taxpayer. they don't like the terms? go find a job someplace else.
    So you have no knowledge of what a teacher does (aside from probably thinking it entails babysitting), and yet you feel qualified to dictate what her pay should be? Given your military background, are you comfortable with me, a civilian with absolutely no military training or background setting your salary, then telling you to take it or leave it? Your idea that the folks in government are somehow paragons of virtue and should be trusted to know what's best without any checks or balances is incredibly naive. After watching my parents put up with buerocratic foolishness for 30 years each while working for the government (both local and feds), I can safely say a system without the checks and balances a union provides is not a just, fair system.
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    Fair enough Mike, i will try to tone it down. For some reason, when i hear people saying my wife is overpaid, I get defensive, i guess.

    Thanks for the reminder.

    And for the record Mike, I wasn't being passive aggressive. That was just aggressive.

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    Last edited by Goaldeje; 03-03-11 at 07:31 AM.
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    One thing that kinda surprises me is, with all the information, education, and resources available, to everybody these days, that there even needs to be a union anymore.

    They served a purpose for years, years ago. But now, unions are only about unions. Their members are simply a cash cow. But, they've managed to scare their members into believing that their very existence is dependent on paying their monthly dues, and then doing what they're told.

    Kinda like the employers they rail against, who also scare their employees into thinking their very existence is dependent on the job, where they pay THEM, to do what they're told.

    There has to be a way for workers to achieve everything they get now, or more, without having to fund these dinosaurs.

    Many more smart people today. There HAS to be a way.

    If I am elected Ruler of the World, I promise, I'll fix it. Quickly, and easily.
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    Ax, i couldn't agree more. I think coordinating teachers (in this case) en masse to protest over an injustice should be a lot easier today than it was 100 years ago. If there was some way to do that reliably without a union, i would be happy.

    And we all know my happiness is what really matters.
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    expnding this thread:

    1) public school systems have been going down the crapper for a long time...including during periods of increasing Union power and benefits. The causes run deeper than how much these people are paid.


    Goaldie:

    1) vis dems/repubs: got it. you believe in equivocation and want me to adopt your value system. AINT GONNA HAPPEN.

    3) it's immaterial to me whether you love/hate Unions. government official corruption? specifically in the context of school boards, superintendents, etc? and the check is? the voter. the media. prosecution. those officials are there to represent the taxpayer. that is the REAL relationship....not the intermediary you are proposing. are prevailing/local working conditions/wages always the product of corrupt government...or the product of local wealth and preferences?

    4) vis lesser evil: guess we'll just have to disagree. the Republican party is at the front end of a long term process of purging and rejuvenation. or it will perish. you discretely avoid all the philosophical/governance issues I drew out. "What's the difference" isn't a satisfying answer...but if you are comfortable with that mindset...so be it! and no...you haven't addressed much of what I described....you expressed your attitude...but not disposition vis the goals Unions are organized to muster money and votes for (other than wages and working conditions).

    5) How have Unions productively, positively and continuously served the interests of parents (i.e., taxpayers) and students? and what takes priority: students or Union objectives?

    6) We have not had any real discussion on whether Unions should even be acceptable or what is negotiable when serving local/State/Federal institutions.

    7) Both my parents taught at public Universities. I have a family member who teaches at a secondary school in Fla. Always helps to ask before jumping to conclusions!!!!

    8) Umm...the Congress sets military wages (manning levels, personnel account funding). They add in perks/benes as needed to maintain required manning/specialty skills. Local school districts will have the same option depending on what quality/quantity of teacher they want to attract. but, in the military, there is no negotiation other than with our feet.

    9) having worked in the Federal system myself for many decades....I can agree with many of the dysfunctions you suggest. and I can also add legions of examples about protected Union workers who served no real purpose, originated no real ideas, produced no real product....and remained a burr on the taxpayer rear quarter for years because it is nearly impossible to fire these people. no argument from me if you actually accept that there are incompetent government servants. I disagree that the answer is Public Unions empowered with expansive collective bargaining rights. those powers aren't used to protect workers...they are used to hold governement and the public hostage. they can and have led to death (see NYC snow quasi-strike).

    we aren't going to agree on this. time to move on.
    Last edited by fansince62; 03-03-11 at 10:42 AM.
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  14. #14

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    Because I can't possibly let you have the last word...

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    expnding this thread:

    1) public school systems have been going down the crapper for a long time...including during periods of increasing Union power and benefits. The causes run deeper than how much these people are paid.


    Goaldie:

    1) vis dems/repubs: got it. you believe in equivocation and want me to adopt your value system. AINT GONNA HAPPEN.
    I don't want you accept anything. I simply want you to understand my position, acknowledge it's a valid point of view without belittling it, and then have a reasonable discourse.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    3) it's immaterial to me whether you love/hate Unions. government official corruption? specifically in the context of school boards, superintendents, etc? and the check is? the voter. the media. prosecution. those officials are there to represent the taxpayer. that is the REAL relationship....not the intermediary you are proposing. are prevailing/local working conditions/wages always the product of corrupt government...or the product of local wealth and preferences?
    I don't think you can say it is exclusively the product of either. Both contribute. Again, I am not saying unions or teachers are without blame, simply that corruptness in the local, state and federal govt does exist, and the workers need to be protected from that corruption. Is the union is the best way to do that? Probably not. But I don't see a whole ton of alternatives right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    4) vis lesser evil: guess we'll just have to disagree. the Republican party is at the front end of a long term process of purging and rejuvenation. or it will perish. you discretely avoid all the philosophical/governance issues I drew out. "What's the difference" isn't a satisfying answer...but if you are comfortable with that mindset...so be it! and no...you haven't addressed much of what I described....you expressed your attitude...but not disposition vis the goals Unions are organized to muster money and votes for (other than wages and working conditions).
    Trying not to be passive aggressive, Mike. Promise.

    I feel as though I have addressed several times in several places the fact that I absolutely do NOT support the goals of most unions, many of which are not there for the benefit of the teachers, parents and schools. I find that abhorrent. Not sure how else to explain this. However, if the choice is putting up with those evils, or not having any representation for the rights of the workers at all, well, I'm siding with the workers on that one.

    If there is an alternative that protects the rights of the workers while eliminating the waste and abhorrent goals you reference, I'm all ears.

    As for the Repub/Dems thing, I am not avoiding anything. I find myself becoming more liberal as I get older, but do not identify myself as a Dem. Still never voted that way, as a matter of fact. I tend to look at separate issues independently, see where the candidates fall on various things that are important to me, and vote accordingly. I think both parties are corrupt and incompetent, and am slowly beginning to understand that local elections are where I can make the most difference, and therefore pay more attention to those than others.


    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    5) How have Unions productively, positively and continuously served the interests of parents (i.e., taxpayers) and students? and what takes priority: students or Union objectives?
    They haven't, and the students. Good teachers put their student's priorities first, therefore the union should as well. Sadly however, no one puts the teacher's needs first. No one. The choice should not be between the union and students. The teachers needs should be factored in as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    6) We have not had any real discussion on whether Unions should even be acceptable or what is negotiable when serving local/State/Federal institutions.
    Well, I would generally say if the nurses in the VA system (to pick a position at random) are treated poorly and feel they need a union to get proper representation, go for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    7) Both my parents taught at public Universities. I have a family member who teaches at a secondary school in Fla. Always helps to ask before jumping to conclusions!!!!
    OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    8) Umm...the Congress sets military wages (manning levels, personnel account funding). They add in perks/benes as needed to maintain required manning/specialty skills. Local school districts will have the same option depending on what quality/quantity of teacher they want to attract. but, in the military, there is no negotiation other than with our feet.
    I don't really understand your argument here, sorry. Are you saying you think the military should be able to have a union? Or that because the military can't, therefore the teachers shouldn't either?

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    9) having worked in the Federal system myself for many decades....I can agree with many of the dysfunctions you suggest. and I can also add legions of examples about protected Union workers who served no real purpose, originated no real ideas, produced no real product....and remained a burr on the taxpayer rear quarter for years because it is nearly impossible to fire these people. no argument from me if you actually accept that there are incompetent government servants. I disagree that the answer is Public Unions empowered with expansive collective bargaining rights. those powers aren't used to protect workers...they are used to hold governement and the public hostage. they can and have led to death (see NYC snow quasi-strike).

    we aren't going to agree on this. time to move on.
    So your solution is to get rid of the evil unions without any alternative for the workers? In one breath you acknowledge there is corruption in government on all levels, but feel as though the teachers who work under that corruption should have no recourse to deal with that corruption?

    I guess I don't understand your argument. It seems like you want to do away with unions without offering any sort of alternative. Furthermore, you seem to be arguing that teachers don't need/deserve any recourse.

    IF that is your position, you're right, we are done. If, however, you would like to propose some alternatives, I would love to talk about them.
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    1) I have been very clear: my focus is on the unhealthy relationship between Public Unions and elected officials. I have been more detailed and stated that I agree with what is one obvious objective of the Republicans - eliminating a major funding source for the Democrats. This is real world hardball politics.

    2) I have gone to pains to distinguish individuals from the expression of their GROUP interests...their Union boss's agendas. It is the latter I want severely reduced.

    3) Couple considerations:

    - Unions aren't the only mechanism (in the public sector) for ensuring fairness

    - Federal Unions don't have many/most of the privileges being fought over in WI...but they seem to be doing ok

    - the Unions..when ascendent...have looked after their interests and no one else's. That's what shapes a lot of Gov Walker's experience set from his mayoral days in Milwaukee. We are now in a downturn and the Unions are not in a power position. It's regretable that the advantage turns during down times...but that's the reality and I'd exploit it were I Gov Walker as well.

    - no one has discussed this.....but WI will eventually elect a Dem Governor and a Dem majority and they will undo what Walker has done. what will be interesting...when this comes to pass...is if the Republicans will walk out and not return like the petulant children vacationing in WI today. In the best of all possible worlds...Tea Party wingnuts will show up and physically assault MSNBC reporters, camp out in the legislature, threaten Democrat officials. The NAZI party of American can send funds for pizza and the RNC will bus recently released prisoners to swell the numbers and elevate the threat of violence. The sitting Republican President can opine that the protestors should not be villified. Cuz well.....everyone does it...right?

    I don't wish you or your wife ill. I see the bigger politics in play and make a choice on where I line up. This wil leventually result in some compromise (to be undone as noted above) and we will get back to worrying about unfunded future entitlement burdens.

    returning to point 2...I have no doubt your spousal unit is a wonderful, loving, supremely patient woman: she has tolerated you all these years! I kid. I kid. I am well aware of the human dimension of this...and had to march through the thought process of the trade-offs. right now...as noted above....the primary goal is ending the unhealthy entanglement of Public Unions and elections. That's the hardball game being played. How many times have Trumpka and Andy Stern visited the White House? A lot more than you, me or Gov Walker for that matter.
    Last edited by fansince62; 03-03-11 at 07:59 PM.
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  16. #16

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    I suspect we are closer on this than either of us first realized. I have no problem with reducing the power of the unions, and in fact would prefer that. My contention with your position which seems to have lessened in this last post is that teachers need some form of recourse against abusive systems. Eliminating the union all together strikes me as a poor idea. But reducing their power does not.

    And yes, my wife is a saint. Can you imagine putting up with me twenty four seven for fourteen years now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    I suspect we are closer on this than either of us first realized. I have no problem with reducing the power of the unions, and in fact would prefer that. My contention with your position which seems to have lessened in this last post is that teachers need some form of recourse against abusive systems. Eliminating the union all together strikes me as a poor idea. But reducing their power does not.

    And yes, my wife is a saint. Can you imagine putting up with me twenty four seven for fourteen years now?
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    I can meet you half way...so..yea...there was some hyperbole in my posts vis destroying Unions. Here's what I don't know.....where is the dividing line between enough collective bargaining rights and too many? Not my area so I don't know.

    anywho....this has been draining. I suppose it's like a bodily function for me in some ways...:-).....need to flush it all out. different mindset for the Skins this year. can't wait for the draft and FA!
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