Lanky Livingston
Guest
I'm coming from the anti-organized religion standpoint; I just dislike when people use religion as a cop out. If you believe you shouldn't hit women, then own it. Don't pin it on the bible or Krishna or whatever.
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Boy Wrestler Forfeits Match v/ Girl
- Thread starter Elephant
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I'm coming from the anti-organized religion standpoint; I just dislike when people use religion as a cop out. If you believe you shouldn't hit women, then own it. Don't pin it on the bible or Krishna or whatever.
fansince62
Guest
Lanky Livingston
Guest
You're stating your standpoint incorrectly - the logical conclusion you should be drawing is that all segregation by sex should be tossed out. There would be no girls' leagues, just lower-level leagues & upper-level leagues that are open to all men & women.
Lanky Livingston
Guest
Who says I have to pin it on any moral authority?
fansince62
Guest
not questioning what you do. was pointing out indirectly that's what they are doing.
you, of course, are free (well until Obama completes his "transformation" of America anyway) to base your decision-making on any foundation that suits you.
Wait. You don't think there should be age and sex and skill brackets in local competitions? To what end?
You do realize why most tournaments and competitions exist, don't you? To make money. They are mostly fundraisers. You know, '5k for the cure' and whatnot. In your perfect world, there would only be one trophy, to be won by some man in his 20s ... or maybe 30s? Anyone else need not apply? How much money are these events supposed to sacrifice for your vision of competitive purity?
Let me make sure I get this right:
In the 85-year history of the Iowa tournament (39 years of which Title IX has been law), a grand total of two girls have ever even qualified to participate. So based on this, you think that we are rambling down the road of arbitrary equality and fairness which tips in favor of GIRLS?
And to remedy this, you have a plan which would significantly, if not completely, reduce the amount of girls that would be able to participate in sports across the board?
And this has all been brought to the forefront because a boy respectfully bowed out of a match with a girl, who respectfully accepted his decision in front of a crowd that didn't care?
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Goaldeje
The Legend
Stop using logic and common sense, Henry. It has no place here!
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I agree as well. I don't think anyone here is suggesting more than that.
fansince62
Guest
logic/common sense - codespeak for "what I happen to agree with". pls don't put the pea under the shell it has no place hiding.
the reality is that I'm laughing at the brazen hypocrisy: when it suits our purposes we'll argue equality. when it doesn't we'll argue competition. why? cuz we can. we're under no obligation to be consistent! THE STANDARD KEEPS SHIFTNG. it's a bunch of situational ethics that is total balderdash.
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fansince62
Guest
no....you are reading it bassackwards...I'm saying that the principle in play has been equality insofar as the changes we have seen in resourcing women's sports. now you are proposing support for a new change - women's participation in men's sport based on competition but not the reverse. I'm crying foul! if the standard is to propose whatever reason of the moment is imagined to support the favored outcome...that's horse hockey. though it does have the advantage of opening up the same avenue to anyone else for whatever cause they feel wedded to.
and since two can play this game - I object vehemently to the sexist supposition that boys/men represent the pinnacle when it comes to sports! what's wrong with you people? have you no politically correct shame?
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fansince62
Guest
another way of saying the same thing....but I can live with removing the modifier "lesser talented" and feel perfectly content with your correction. I used lesser talented because the idea in play was that only the most talented girls would compete against boys - as a means to test themselves against the best. that was the original idea put forward.
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That's worse than getting beat by a girl in a wrestling match! Well, maybe not, but that's funny!
Wrestling = one on one violent sport
Boy wrestling girl = violence against a girl
What is so hard to understand that this is not acceptable?
Look, I have a perspective that may skew my opinion. When I was 5 I watched my father break my mother's jaw. I wrestled, briefly, in high school. I learned quick the value of a legal maneuver called the cross face. I would drive my fist across the face of my opponent when I wanted to roll them over to their back. I don't see much difference between the punch my father landed on my mother's jaw and the cross face a boy could deliver across a girl's face.
If you want to go another direction with this argument, imagine being in a side position and your are trying to roll your opponent. It is common to grab the opponent by his or up under the sacred area. I can see it now, a boy grabs a girl by her private area to roll her. Should this move be permitted against a girl? Like previously mentioned, this move in the real world would constitute a sexual assault.
http://legalblogwatch.typepad.com/legal_blog_watch/2010/12/calif-hs-wrestlers-butt-drag-earns-him-sexual-assault-charges.html
Just picture if this was a girl!!!
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I was certainly not trying to minimize the affect it had on you. I had some embarrassing issues in High School that affected me going forward for a long time as well.
fansince62
Guest
That's worse than getting beat by a girl in a wrestling match! Well, maybe not, but that's funny!
Wrestling = one on one violent sport
Boy wrestling girl = violence against a girl
What is so hard to understand that this is not acceptable?
Look, I have a perspective that may skew my opinion. When I was 5 I watched my father break my mother's jaw. I wrestled, briefly, in high school. I learned quick the value of a legal maneuver called the cross face. I would drive my fist across the face of my opponent when I wanted to roll them over to their back. I don't see much difference between the punch my father landed on my mother's jaw and the cross face a boy could deliver across a girl's face.
If you want to go another direction with this argument, imagine being in a side position and your are trying to roll your opponent. It is common to grab the opponent by his or up under the sacred area. I can see it now, a boy grabs a girl by her private area to roll her. Should this move be permitted against a girl? Like previously mentioned, this move in the real world would constitute a sexual assault.
http://legalblogwatch.typepad.com/legal_blog_watch/2010/12/calif-hs-wrestlers-butt-drag-earns-him-sexual-assault-charges.html
Just picture if this was a girl!!!
hmmm....maybe I should change my mind! would girls also be grabbing fellas in the crotch?
Alaskan
The 1st Round Pick
I have no problem realizing that men are better at most sports than women. Pretty much everything except for maybe figure skating.
That has nothing to do with being PC so you can put that strawman away.Again, I do find it interesting that you are fixated on women and men, when the PGA has a had a Senior's Tour for years and nobody has said boo about it. It's basically the exact same thing, except it's old men and young men. Been around since 1937 and has yet to rock the foundations of American culture. When an old guy, like Jack Nicholas, actually makes the PGA cut is the outrage there? Can the cries of injustice be heard across the land? The demand for anyone of any age to be able to compete on any tour? No, there's a special segment on ESPN about how great it is that the Old Man was able to give the crowds something to cheer for one more time.
The only time I ever saw anyone get worked up about golf is when that 15 year-old girl had the nerve to try and make the cut with the men's tour. Then it was all cries of 'men should be able to play in the womens' leagues! Oh the humanity!'
Hilarious. The irony is she didn't even make it, so the point was moot.
Women and girls are so rarely able to compete at the level of men and boys that the point is almost always moot, which is why they usually have their own leagues (though not in the case of these wrestlers). The very very few times a girl or woman can compete (and especially in cases such as this one where they don't have their own league) I don't have a problem making an exception. You apparently do, so much so that you'd be willing to tear down women's sports to make a point.
And I think you are, as usual, completely over-reacting.
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I gotta tell ya, half the wrestling moves I've seen I wouldn't want to perform on a guy either. Based on this, I think we should do away with the sport entirely.
riggins44
The Franchise Player
I gotta tell ya, half the wrestling moves I've seen I wouldn't want to perform on a guy either. Based on this, I think we should do away with the sport entirely.
LOL...this used to piss my son off so much. Guys on football or basketball team were talking about how it was a gay sport. Him and his teammates would say come spend 5 minutes on the mat and we will see what you think afterwards.
Can't tell you the number of times I've been on the couch, minding my own business, only to get slammed and put in a cradle.
If see him coming first, I win every time. Just a matter of reminding him who pays for gas, insurance, cell phone, and his ride.
Lanky Livingston
Guest
El, I respect that your experience has shaped your opinion on the subject, but the difference is the women competing against men want to be there. They know the risks, signed the waivers, and fully expect it.
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Yeah, my mom knew my dad was a violent man who had a drinking problem going in since she hung out with him in a bar where she saw him get in numerous fights, so...
Although not entirely parallel, it is violence against girls if they are permitted to wrestle with boys!
It sends conflicting messages that boys are less likely to be able to distinguish.
Did you read the link I attached? There is already male v. male sexual assault charges being made for a move that has been standard since long before my days on the mat. And you truly believe a girl wrestling boys is going to be OK with that?
Like I said, my experience gives me a more impassioned view toward violence against women. I will refuse to allow a boy of mine to wrestle a girl. I believe it is wrong. I will never allow my daughter to be subjected to blatant violence like wrestling.
As for other sports, if she is good enough on the soccer field, baseball field or other teams sports that aren't blatantly violent, I have no issue with that.
No wrestling, boxing or martial arts with boys!
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