A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

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    Default FatPickled: Why the Redskins Should Draft a Lineman, but Of Course They Won't

    This article pretty much perfectly sums up the Redskins struggles in the Dan Snyder era, with one amazing stat.

    The Redskins haven’t drafted a true DE before the 7th round during the Dan Snyder era (2000-2010). They‘ve also neglected to draft a DT before the 5th round, your list:

    DE Jackson 7th rd 2008
    DT Montgomery 5th 2005
    DT Golston 6th 2005
    DE Greg Scott 7th 2002 (who)
    DT Monds 6th 2004
    DT Cowsette 7th 2000

    Some may consider Brian Orakpo to be a DE, he’s truly not. But even if you consider him a DE, I’ll call that a step in the right direction. Orakpo has earned 2 trips to the Pro Bowl in 2 years.

    Want a stat that will blow your mind?? Consider this:

    The above list of DE/DT’s drafted in the last 11 years have produced 11.5 sacks. The DB’s the Redskins have drafted during that time have 12.5 sacks! (Tryon, Horton, Landry, Doughty, Taylor & Lott)
    Click link for the rest of the article.
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    But Quarterbacks are soooooo cooooool. Even if they don't have the talent to rate a top 10 pick, we MUST have one. And if we can't get a QB, we just HAVE to have a tall lanky wide receiver
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    Default

    I guess the 3rd we spent on Jarmon doesn't count because it was in the supplemental draft?

    And I do count Orakpo as a DE. So that is two in past 2 years.
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    James Madison

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    Yeah, good point Neo. Jarmon hasn't done enough yet,, i was really hoping he would step it up this year, but right now looks like a wasted pick.m
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    Default

    Yeah, he also left out Mark Wilson (same year as Molinaro). Jarmon seems promising, but he's done nothing of note so far. Maybe he steps up this year? Who knows...
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    I agree with the commentary, but this last bit confused me:

    One final stat, let’s compare the Redskins total amount of OL/DL’s drafted in the first 4 rounds of the draft from 2000-2010 vs. the 3 teams that have won multiple Super Bowls.

    Patriots – 16
    Steelers – 15
    Colts – 10
    Redskins – 3
    The 3 teams that have won multiple Superbowls??? I'm pretty sure there are more than three teams that have won multiple Superbowls. Did they mean 3 recent multiple Superbowl winners? Even that wouldn't make sense as the Colts won only 1 recently, their previous one in Superbowl V.
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaldeje View Post
    Yeah, good point Neo. Jarmon hasn't done enough yet,, i was really hoping he would step it up this year, but right now looks like a wasted pick.m
    I'm giving him a pass for the time being since the new coaching staff could not decide what to do with him to start with. First, he was apparently asked to drop weight to play OLB and then was asked to put it back on, bulking up over his original weight, to play 3-4 DE. Not a great way to get the most of a player, IMHO.

    And I saw enough from him as a rookie to believe he was potentially worth the pick. In fact, had we stayed with the 4-3 in 2010 I expected him to challenge for the starting job at LDE. Again, a guy whose pro development took a big hit with a system change. *sigh*
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    James Madison

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    Story of the 2010 season, huh Neo? Hopefully he can flash more of that talent we all saw early on. Jarmon looked like he could contribute, and maybe push Daniels doe the starting spot. Given Daniels' age, I was really hoping this would happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by China View Post
    The 3 teams that have won multiple Superbowls??? I'm pretty sure there are more than three teams that have won multiple Superbowls. Did they mean 3 recent multiple Superbowl winners? Even that wouldn't make sense as the Colts won only 1 recently, their previous one in Superbowl V.
    Well, since the article focused on the Dan Snyder era, I assumed he meant multiple superbowls in that era. And including the Colts probably because they've been to multiple superbowls in that time period. Just a guess though.
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    and yet lanky, if not for this idiotic switch, the Dline was a strength of this team, we had youth, and depth enough that we lost a guy to the eagles because we thought we were pretty set at DT and PR'd him, we had youth and depth at DE with Carter platooning with Rak and jarmon with Daniels, gholston and monty mixing in with Haynesworth and Griffin, we honestly could have used another DT but thats a pretty damn solid group. now our Dline in less than a season has become a huge area of need that REQUIRES several new players.

    Jarmon has talent and will do well somewhere else, Rak is ok as an OLB but I doubt he will ever be a dmvp type player, Hayneworth will make a probowl somewhere else and Carter will be a great pass rush specialist for some other team.

    all that despite us never really drafting DE's. and people wondered why some of us were excited when we added AH and it LOOKED like we would finally have that defence we all want.

    man this really chaps my butt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rymanofthenorth View Post
    and yet lanky, if not for this idiotic switch, the Dline was a strength of this team, we had youth, and depth enough that we lost a guy to the eagles because we thought we were pretty set at DT and PR'd him, we had youth and depth at DE with Carter platooning with Rak and jarmon with Daniels, gholston and monty mixing in with Haynesworth and Griffin, we honestly could have used another DT but thats a pretty damn solid group. now our Dline in less than a season has become a huge area of need that REQUIRES several new players.

    Jarmon has talent and will do well somewhere else, Rak is ok as an OLB but I doubt he will ever be a dmvp type player, Hayneworth will make a probowl somewhere else and Carter will be a great pass rush specialist for some other team.

    all that despite us never really drafting DE's.
    Excellent points Ryman.
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    Dude its killing me lol.

    I was talking about this with a buddy of mine who is a pies fan, for a long time we got decent defences fielded despite not putting resources into our dline, one season we had a FRIGGIN CORNER lead our team in sacks ffs. We somehow managed to have decent defences despite not haveing much more than a serviceable front 7, our strength was always our back 7 and we always had at least one massive hole in the front 7, one season it was at DT (after Gardner left) the next was at DE when we had no pass rush threat (renaldo wynn? with Coleman?really?) then we had to start Holdman at OLB, then Lemar marshall, we have never been quite able to put a "solid across the board", defence on the field. BUT WE NEVER DROPPED TO DEAD LAST. We had one very bad season when everyone was injured and we tried to play cover 2 with no Dbs lol.

    Last season I felt like we finally turned the corner, we already had a solid back 7 other than perhaps a FS and an OLB and our front 4 was good AND WE DRAFTED A STUD PASSRUSHER TO PAIR WITH OUR STUD DT AND OUR SOLID PASSRUSHER. all we really needed was a good OLB and a cover FS maybe a developmental DT and we really could have been special even with an average DC.

    now I cringe when someone mentions our defence and instead of being excited for next season I honestly feel like I dont care because we are going to suck anyway.

    So very close and yet so very very far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rymanofthenorth View Post
    and yet lanky, if not for this idiotic switch, the Dline was a strength of this team, we had youth, and depth enough that we lost a guy to the eagles because we thought we were pretty set at DT and PR'd him, we had youth and depth at DE with Carter platooning with Rak and jarmon with Daniels, gholston and monty mixing in with Haynesworth and Griffin, we honestly could have used another DT but thats a pretty damn solid group. now our Dline in less than a season has become a huge area of need that REQUIRES several new players.
    Well, even if I were to concede your point that the switch was "idiotic" (I still don't, FYI) and we'd stuck with the 4-3, we were gonna have to rejuvenate the DL sooner rather than later. Andre Carter will be 32 when the season starts, and Daniels will be 38! And even with DL as a "strength," we were still in the bottom half of the league in sacks every year except 09 (Dead last in 2006) since 2005.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Well, even if I were to concede your point that the switch was "idiotic" (I still don't, FYI) and we'd stuck with the 4-3, we were gonna have to rejuvenate the DL sooner rather than later. Andre Carter will be 32 when the season starts, and Daniels will be 38! And even with DL as a "strength," we were still in the bottom half of the league in sacks every year except 09 (Dead last in 2006) since 2005.
    Without getting too embroiled in this discourse, I think your sack stats support Ryman's assertion since 2009 is when the defensive line started to really get it going in the sack numbers while in the 4-3, then all of a sudden we dropped in sack numbers again as we slid to 31 overall in the switch to 3-4

    I think a switch to 3-4 was too early like Ryman suggests, but I am not convinced in the grand scheme it was a total blunder. Only time will tell in that regard.
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    The Redskins were obsessed this past decade with secondary players.

    Taylor (#1 in 2004), Rogers (#1 in 2005), Landry (#1 in 2007) with both Taylor and Landry in the top 10.

    I can't remember a team that focused so much of its resources on one unit in such a short period of time in the draft.

    In hockey you can draft a center three years in a row at #1 and still be successful.

    With 22 guys on the field as starters instead of 5, you can't do the same thing in the NFL.

    You have to spread your resources around and put together the most balanced team possible.

    That's what the Steelers and Packers are. Both are balanced teams.

    Neither is a juggernaut, but they are solid across the board.

    And they have some depth.

    That is what wins in the NFL today.

    The Redskins evidently were the last team to be told this

    Hopefully, Shanahan and Allen will look up at what is currently one of the worst defensive lines in the NFL and address it adequately in the offseason.

    To take Jake Locker or Newton and have him sit for 1-2 years and pass up the chance to acquire a difference maker for the 3-4 would be a decision this team will come to regret in the future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Well, even if I were to concede your point that the switch was "idiotic" (I still don't, FYI) and we'd stuck with the 4-3, we were gonna have to rejuvenate the DL sooner rather than later. Andre Carter will be 32 when the season starts, and Daniels will be 38! And even with DL as a "strength," we were still in the bottom half of the league in sacks every year except 09 (Dead last in 2006) since 2005.

    Maybe I am not being clear, when I say that the Dline had become the strength of our defence, I meant very very recently as in once we signed the fat guy who shall remain nameless until he shows up to play. I thought I was clear. I even named the players.

    there really is only one way you can look at this switch and not think it was stupid, thats if you wanted us to tank a season perhaps 2 to get a better draft pick, becauise in any other measurement it was an abject fail. You dont make changes based on PLAYERS YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE. It really is that simple. We are now entering A SECOND REBUILDING SEASON, where we will be told to be patient because the new guys are learning lol.

    Your argument that sooner rather than later we would have to replace 2 players seems a bit dim considering the replacement for both of those players were on the roster and developing, and with Carter being a conditioning demon and aside from Daniels being a glass man we were still getting production from them, in carters case pro bowl production, we still had solid rotations. also you dont need to replace them both at once, you could have phased them out and brought along their replacements slowly. while daniels has faltered due to injuries, Carter hasnt slowed down at all yet. at DT we had a great 3 tech who at his worst was good and at his best was singular, and we had a solid rotation of guys beside him. keep him happy and we dominate.

    I wont even get into the lack of depth at Linebacker, fletch is pretty much on his last legs although he is an amazing guy who always plays hard, and Rocky simply didnt fit the 3-4. Rak still hasnt shown he belongs at OLB his moves are exclusively those of a DE thus far and he looks terrible in space after 2 seasons of playing OLB.


    Sorry lanky, your arguments dont work, they are based on what ifs not on what we have.

    do I think a steeler or Green bay defence is very good? yes! do I think minnesota or chicago or new york is pretty good too? yes.

    but anyone with even a modicum of rational thought can see we were far closer to fielding a great 4-3 and its been proven that we werent even close to a decent 3-4 and still arent. WE DONT HAVE THE SAME PLAYERS THAT THOSE 3-4 TEAMS BUT WE DO HAVE COMPARABLE PLAYERS TO THE 4-3 TEAMS.


    There is no argument that the 3-4 was NOT idiotic, for there to be an argument, there has to be a rational counterpoint, ergo, you have lost that argument before starting it, we dropped several spots and will be losing several players without getting picks or players for them, thats a net loss in every possible measurement. We finsihed almost dead last on defence after being 10th, We are now reduced to a complete rebuild on defence AFTER A YEAR THAT SHOULD HAVE SERVED AS SUCH and will be lucky to finish higher than 20 next year.

    I know you are gonna say TURNOVERS, WE GOT MORE TURNOVERS, Turnovers are a function of aggression not simply alignment, lots of 4-3 teams get them. if you could show me a stat that says that 3-4 teams all have better turnovers than 4-3 teams I would look at that.
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    BT our DC in Blache and even williams had the view that you can get your pass rush from other areas, rather than your front 4, Blache didnt think pressure was as important as Williams and williams liked to blitz and used his lb and db to bring heat. neither put a premium on great front 4 players, BUT if youve been a fan for very long you know many of us were screaming to draft a DE for years and a DT for years., we finally get a couple and boom we make them useless.
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    it's all about talent not scheme.

    The Redskins TWICE set Super Bowl rushing records facing 3-4 defenses in Miami and Denver. Why?

    Because the Redskins offensive line and TEs were better than the Dolphins/Broncos front seven.

    Meanwhile, the Redskins lost 3 times in 1986 to the Giants because their front seven in the 3-4 matched up well with our OL and won the individual matchups.
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    I agree to a point BT it is all about talent but you have to have talent THAT FITS your scheme. we were the case in point in having solid defensive talent and abjectly failing to play to it. I dont think I have ever seen a team miscast so many players at one time. maybe Atlanta a few years ago.

    Its akin to taking the 19082 49ers and trying to run the redskins offence with them, undersized Olinemen, receoivers who ran great timing patterns and a small not very strong armed QB wouldnt have fit what we did, but it sure fit walsh's offence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rymanofthenorth View Post
    Maybe I am not being clear, when I say that the Dline had become the strength of our defence, I meant very very recently as in once we signed the fat guy who shall remain nameless until he shows up to play. I thought I was clear. I even named the players.
    And he still could have been a strength, if he'd bought into the system. He never did, and pouted like a 5 year old. And no, I still don't buy your argument that a guy that talented can only play one way - its silly at best. And no, you don't need to rehash it and tell me how dumb I am for not agreeing with you; I can just go back and read one of your 9012432532 threads on the topic if I need a refresher.

    there really is only one way you can look at this switch and not think it was stupid,
    Actually, there's at least 3 - two of them are playing in the superbowl this Sunday; one lost a weekend ago to the Steelers.

    thats if you wanted us to tank a season perhaps 2 to get a better draft pick, becauise in any other measurement it was an abject fail. You dont make changes based on PLAYERS YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE. It really is that simple. We are now entering A SECOND REBUILDING SEASON, where we will be told to be patient because the new guys are learning lol.
    Clay Matthews was the 26th overall pick - no need to tank. Takes time to build a defense; whether or not we have the competence to get the right guys in is another thread altogether, however assuming we do, it doesn't happen overnight.

    Your argument that sooner rather than later we would have to replace 2 players seems a bit dim considering the replacement for both of those players were on the roster and developing, and with Carter being a conditioning demon and aside from Daniels being a glass man we were still getting production from them, in carters case pro bowl production, we still had solid rotations.
    You're making the assumption that Jarmon would be an every down contributor like Daniels has been, which may or may not be the case. The point is, if you need to replace those guys anyway, why not replace them with 3-4 personnel? Jarmon and Rak are good fits in the 3-4 D. Now we use draft picks to build around them. Its pretty simple, Ry.

    also you dont need to replace them both at once, you could have phased them out and brought along their replacements slowly. while daniels has faltered due to injuries, Carter hasnt slowed down at all yet. at DT we had a great 3 tech who at his worst was good and at his best was singular, and we had a solid rotation of guys beside him. keep him happy and we dominate.
    Dominate like in 2009 when we went 4-12? Because that's the kind of domination I personally can do without.

    I wont even get into the lack of depth at Linebacker, fletch is pretty much on his last legs although he is an amazing guy who always plays hard, and Rocky simply didnt fit the 3-4. Rak still hasnt shown he belongs at OLB his moves are exclusively those of a DE thus far and he looks terrible in space after 2 seasons of playing OLB.
    Fletcher looked like the youngest guy on the field at the pro-bowl. He's got 2, maybe 3 more solid years left in him. As to the lack of depth, I'm sure they will look to sign an OLB in free-agency, as well as draft one at 10 or 41 (42?).

    Sorry lanky, your arguments dont work, they are based on what ifs not on what we have.
    I'm sure Green Bay had similar thoughts before drafting Raji and Matthews in the same year. Could happen to us this year. Last year they saw what they had on the roster for the 3-4, this year they will re-build accordingly. The sad truth is, there just wasn't enough draft picks last year to address everything, and there probably won't be this year.

    but anyone with even a modicum of rational thought can see we were far closer to fielding a great 4-3 and its been proven that we werent even close to a decent 3-4 and still arent. WE DONT HAVE THE SAME PLAYERS THAT THOSE 3-4 TEAMS BUT WE DO HAVE COMPARABLE PLAYERS TO THE 4-3 TEAMS.

    There is no argument that the 3-4 was NOT idiotic, for there to be an argument, there has to be a rational counterpoint, ergo, you have lost that argument before starting it, we dropped several spots and will be losing several players without getting picks or players for them, thats a net loss in every possible measurement. We finsihed almost dead last on defence after being 10th, We are now reduced to a complete rebuild on defence AFTER A YEAR THAT SHOULD HAVE SERVED AS SUCH and will be lucky to finish higher than 20 next year.
    Well actually, there are plenty. And aren't we beyond this point yet, Ryman? Yes, we may have had a decent 4-3 defense last season; that's not the point. The 3-4 has proven to be even better. I suppose you thought we would compete for a superbowl with a better defense last year? I've got sad news for you Ry, this team is a lot further off than that.

    I know you are gonna say TURNOVERS, WE GOT MORE TURNOVERS, Turnovers are a function of aggression not simply alignment, lots of 4-3 teams get them. if you could show me a stat that says that 3-4 teams all have better turnovers than 4-3 teams I would look at that.
    The turnovers were nice, but you're right - that was the function of more aggressive playcalling. All I need to see is this: 4 of the top 5 & 7 of the top 10 defenses this past season ran a 3-4. (6 of the top 10 scoring defenses, also)
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