A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

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  1. #1

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    Default Late Round Draft Success since 1994

    Rich Tandler from CSN recently tweeted that the Redskins have only 1 pro-bowler drafted in the 4th-round or later since 1996 (Stephen Davis, 4th round), which while not necessarily surprising given the clowns in charge, but very alarming. I immediately wanted to know how many 4th-rounders & later had made pro-bowls over the same period, for a comparison. So, I did the research. I also added 2 previous years, from 1994, the year the draft went to 7 rounds. Here is a list of teams, in order of how many pro-bowlers they hit on in the later rounds:

    Green Bay 9
    Denver 6
    San Francisco 6
    Baltimore*+ 5
    New England*+ 5
    Tennessee 5
    Cincinatti 4
    Kansas City 4
    Chicago* 3
    Dallas 3
    Indianapolis*+ 3
    New York (Giants)*+ 3
    Oakland* 3
    Philadelphia* 3
    San Diego 3
    Buffalo 2
    Detroit 2
    Houston 2
    Miami 2
    New Orleans*+ 2
    New York (Jets) 2
    Pittsburgh*+ 2
    Seattle* 2
    Washington 2
    Atlanta 1
    Cleveland 1
    Jacksonville 1
    Minnesota 1
    Tampa Bay*+ 1
    Arizona* 0
    Carolina* 0
    St. Louis* 0


    *Superbowl appearance since 2000
    +Superbowl win since 2000

    Its interesting to note that some teams with the most success in the later rounds aren't necessarily the teams that had the most "ultimate" success. Green Bay for example, won the superbowl in 96 and lost in 97, but haven't been back to the big dance since despite 9 late round gems. The 3 teams that found zero late round pro-bowlers have been to the superbowl 4 times, with one win (St. Louis). San Francisco, Cincinnati, Kansas City, & Dallas have a combined 17 pro-bowlers found in rounds 4 and later, and exactly zero superbowl appearances and 2 playoff wins in the past decade to show for it. However, there are 22 superbowl appearances btw teams with 3 or more pro-bowlers in the late rounds, and only 12 appearances for teams with 2 or less (12 wins vs. 5 wins) since 1994. Since 2000 its 12 vs. 8 and 6 wins vs. 4.

    Some of this is a little skewed; for example Green Bay drafted Matt Hasselbeck, who took the Seahawks to the superbowl (Green Bay also drafted Brunell). Washington gets credit for 2 pro-bowlers, when one of the didn't make the pro-bowl until his 12th year in the league with a different team (Frerotte). I did not research which players made the pro-bowl playing for the team that drafted them. The fact they made the pro-bowl alone shows that they were talented, and the team that picked them recognized that.

    Yes, this is a lot of what we suspected already - and its quite depressing seeing as how the Redskins have no 3rd or 4th rounder this draft. Sigh.

    Following is the list of players drafted by round and team who made the pro-bowl.

    Year Player Team Round
    2003 Ovie Mughelli Baltimore 4
    2007 Le'Ron McLain Baltimore 4
    2003 Terrence McGee Buffalo 4
    2004 Nathan Vasher Chicago 4
    1997 Tremain Mack Cincinatti 4
    2001 Rudi Johnson Cincinatti 4
    2005 Marion Barber III Dallas 4
    2006 Brandon Marshall Denver 4
    2006 Elvis Dumervil Denver 4
    1999 Josh Bidwell Green Bay 4
    2005 Jerome Mathis Houston 4
    2006 Owen Daniels Houston 4
    2002 David Garrard Jacksonville 4
    1996 Donnie Edwards Kansas City 4
    2004 Jared Allen Kansas City 4
    2003 Asante Samuel New England 4
    2006 Stephen Gostkowski New England 4
    2006 Jahri Evans New Orleans 4
    2007 Zak DeOssie New York (Giants) 4
    2006 Leon Washington New York (Jets) 4
    1999 Aaron Smith Pittsburgh 4
    1998 Lance Schulters San Francisco 4
    2003 Brandon Lloyd San Francisco 4
    1994 Larry Whigham Seattle 4
    1996 Jon Runyan Tennessee 4
    1997 Derrick Mason Tennessee 4
    1996 Stephen Davis Washington 4
    1996 Jermaine Lewis Baltimore 5
    2006 Kyle Williams Buffalo 5
    1999 Jerry Azumah Chicago 5
    2009 Johnny Knox Chicago 5
    2003 Ryan Pontbriand Cleveland 5
    1995 Stephen Boyd Detroit 5
    2000 Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila Green Bay 5
    2002 Aaron Kampman Green Bay 5
    1995 Travis Jervey Green Bay 5
    1994 Dorsey Levens Green Bay 5
    2003 Robert Mathis Indianapolis 5
    1996 Joe Horn Kansas City 5
    2000 Dante Hall Kansas City 5
    1996 Zach Thomas Miami 5
    2003 Dan Koppen New England 5
    2003 David Diehl New York (Giants) 5
    2002 Jonathan Goodwin New York (Jets) 5
    1996 La'Roi Glover Oakland 5
    1999 Roderick Coleman Oakland 5
    2000 Shane Lechler Oakland 5
    1998 Ike Reese Philadelphia 5
    2005 Trent Cole Philadelphia 5
    2004 Michael Turner San Diego 5
    1994 Rodney Harrison San Diego 5
    2001 Alex Bannister Seattle 5
    1995 Gary Walker Tennessee 5
    2000 Adalius Thomas Baltimore 6
    2005 Derek Anderson Baltimore 6
    2000 Neil Rackers Cincinatti 6
    2007 Nick Folk Dallas 6
    1999 Desmond Clark Denver 6
    1995 Terrell Davis Denver 6
    1995 Cory Schlesinger Detroit 6
    1996 Marco Rivera Green Bay 6
    1998 Matt Hasselbeck Green Bay 6
    2003 Cato June Indianapolis 6
    2006 Antoine Bethea Indianapolis 6
    2003 Yeremiah Bell Miami 6
    1998 Matt Birk Minnesota 6
    2000 Tom Brady New England 6
    2000 Marc Bulger New Orleans 6
    2003 David Tyree New York (Giants) 6
    1994 Mitch Berger Philadelphia 6
    2003 Hanik Milligan San Diego 6
    1998 Fred Beasley San Francisco 6
    2004 Andy Lee San Francisco 6
    1994 Lee Woodall San Francisco 6
    1997 Al Harris Tampa Bay 6
    1994 Jamal Anderson Atlanta 7
    2001 T.J. Houshmanzedah Cincinatti 7
    2005 Jay Ratliff Dallas 7
    1995 Byron Chamberlain Denver 7
    1994 Tom Nalen Denver 7
    1999 Donald Driver Green Bay 7
    1995 Adam Timmerman Green Bay 7
    1999 Sean Morey New England 7
    2002 Brett Keisel Pittsburgh 7
    2000 Brian Jennings San Francisco 7
    2006 Cortland Finnegan Tennessee 7
    2010 Marc Mariani Tennessee 7
    1994 Gus Frerotte Washington 7
    Last edited by Lanky Livingston; 01-20-11 at 02:47 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Great job Lanky! Good info although I went a step further and concentrated on position players and weeded out all the punters, kickers and special teamers. Even after that, we're still lacking. I wonder how it looked during Gibbs I. I have a feeling we were near the top.
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    well, let's see.

    Beathard and Casserly from 1980-92 had their share of high picks that turned out (Monk, May, Grimm, Green, Mann, etc.) and those that did not (Kleine, Slater, Tory Nixon, Brian Davis).

    But look at the 'gems' found after Round 3:

    Raleigh McKenzie - 11th round
    Darryl Grant - 9th round
    Clint Didier - 12th round
    Charlie Brown - 8th round
    Ed Simmons - 6th round
    Dexter Manley - 5th round
    Monte Coleman - 11th round
    Don Warren - 4th round
    Brian Mitchell - 5th round
    Mark Rypien - 6th round
    Stan Humphries - 6th round
    Barry Wilburn - 8th round
    Kurt Gouveia - 8th round
    Rich Milot - 7th round
    Mark Schlereth - 10th round
    Kelvin Bryant - 7th round
    Ravin Caldwell - 5th round

    and perhaps the best moves made were for undrafted players or those younger players acquired from other NFL teams who blossomed here.

    Jeff Bostic - waivers from Eagles
    Joe Jacoby - undrafted free agent
    Neal Olkewicz - undrafted free agent
    Mel Kaufman - undrafted free agent
    Ricky Sanders - acquired for #4 pick from Patriots
    Gary Clark - free agent from USFL
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    Right on, BD!!! I was too lazy to look it up but we definitely scored later in the draft back in the day. Makes it easier to forget those early round busts.
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    the odd thing with Beathard is that although he was a draft centric GM he tended to trade away his #1 picks.

    but when he made a first round selection for the Redskins in 1980, 1981 and 1983, look at who he came up with:

    Art Monk, Mark May and Darrell Green.

    And NONE of those picks was earlier than #18 overall
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    Of course, to be fair, Monk, May and Green were all 1st round picks-also, of course, all three performed at a level nobody expected.
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    I'm giving it a 2-4 year window. Looking for improvement in all areas. Redskins, you're on the clock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by servumtuum View Post
    Of course, to be fair, Monk, May and Green were all 1st round picks-also, of course, all three performed at a level nobody expected.
    I don't really remember what it was like when May was drafted, Monk had some excitement around him when he was brought in but not Hall of Fame excitement. However, I do remember the hoopla that surrounded Green when he was drafted. I still remember the smile on George Michael's face as he reported on the Green pick. As we discovered more about him, the excitement surrounding him grew. I cannot sit here and tell you I knew he would have had a 20 year career and enter the Hall of Fame, but it seemed like a certainty he would succeed.
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  8. #8
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    interesting, the OP has a lot of great information.

    Here is my theory.

    1-3 rounders are generally players who are not scheme specific, guys with prototype measurables who have the potential to succeed in almost any scheme. most scouting depts know about them and they ararely are a surprise if they are HOF type players, they also usually start from day one or have a short time before they contribute.

    4-5 are usually guys who may have some holes but could be great players in certain schemes, they almost always are not guys who measurables jump out at you unless they didnt have good production in college. these are the guys who usually take a while to get to be good but sometimes start right away and do pretty well.

    6-7 projects, almost always a player with a major flaw. sometimes a guy will have a huge season or two but very very rarely you find a stud player who turns out to be a HOF player. the big thing is that teams find guys in these rounds based almost entirely on systems, because very few players fall this far if they have good measurables unless they have character flaws or no college production.

    Our issue has never been drafting at the top of the round, we have had our Tom carters, even some heath shulers and desmond howards, but since the eighties we have been better than a lot of teams with our early picks, its been our absolute dearth of late rounders/ udfa, that has been brutal since the nineties. I think a good number to look at would be how many players that we drafted after 4 who started more than one season (one season could be due to lack of depth or injuries, two or more means they would actually be decent).

    I am hoping that we start finding talent, thus far we havent really done much of that.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog's Twin View Post
    Beathard and Casserly from 1980-92 had their share of high picks that turned out (Monk, May, Grimm, Green, Mann, etc.) and those that did not (Kleine, Slater, Tory Nixon, Brian Davis).
    And had we been losing, much more criticism would have been heaped on these guys for their early misses, and Beathard's habit of trading away next years 1st.

    But look at the 'gems' found after Round 3:

    Raleigh McKenzie - 11th round
    Darryl Grant - 9th round
    Clint Didier - 12th round
    Charlie Brown - 8th round
    Ed Simmons - 6th round
    Dexter Manley - 5th round
    Monte Coleman - 11th round
    Don Warren - 4th round
    Brian Mitchell - 5th round
    Mark Rypien - 6th round
    Stan Humphries - 6th round
    Barry Wilburn - 8th round
    Kurt Gouveia - 8th round
    Rich Milot - 7th round
    Mark Schlereth - 10th round
    Kelvin Bryant - 7th round
    Ravin Caldwell - 5th round
    Almost half of these guys would be UDFA's today. And, they couldn't be hidden on a roster for a couple of years while they learn, either. And, the guys at the back end of these picks had the luxury of coming to an established winner, making their assimilation easier, and their production possible.

    and perhaps the best moves made were for undrafted players or those younger players acquired from other NFL teams who blossomed here.

    Jeff Bostic - waivers from Eagles
    Joe Jacoby - undrafted free agent
    Neal Olkewicz - undrafted free agent
    Mel Kaufman - undrafted free agent
    Ricky Sanders - acquired for #4 pick from Patriots
    Gary Clark - free agent from USFL
    Our history is rich with players we did not draft.

    There's no question we've done a poor job since 92. The Norv years (as he vurp's) were the only years without the coaching upheaval we've all become so tired of. JKC, and JKC were the owners for most of them, Casserly was the GM, and those years were worse, IMO, than the ones that followed. They just weren't as far away from our glory years. It's much harder to develop players when the coaches/scheme's change every other year. We know whose fault this is.

    As we tread water, waiting for our next ship to come in, it's easy to wax poetic about the past. But that past, having to go through today's filter, would most assuredly have come out different. And, vice versa.

    Apples to oranges.
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    "Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and **** the prom queen"

  10. #10

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    I got intrigued by ryman's question so I've been digging around on Pro Football Reference's sortable draft history chart with criteria selected to make the results more relevant...and, as it turns out, in some cases, surprising.


    What I did was select four teams, Redskins, Broncos, Patriots, and Ravens and narrowed the search into the following: players drafted in the fifth round or lower who have at least two years in the NFL as primary starters for their team, regardless of whether it was the team that drafted them or not, drafted between 1999 and 2008. The reasoning for choosing the Broncos should be obvious. I added the Pats and Ravens due to their respective reputations as among the best at the "art and science" of drafting players.

    Here's the results with the year drafted, the round, draft number, name, position. team drafting, and number of years as starter.

    Washington Redskins

    1 2002 5 160 Robert Royal TE WAs 6 yrs
    2 2006 6 196 Kedric Golston DT WAS 2 yrs

    Denver Broncos

    1 1999 6 179 Desmond Clark TE DEN 6 yrs
    2 2006 5 161 Chris Kuper G DEN 3 yrs
    3 2005 6 200 Chris Myers G DEN 3 yrs
    4 2000 6 189 Mike Anderson RB DEN 3 yrs
    5 1999 5 158 David Bowens DE DEN 2 yrs

    Baltimore Ravens

    1 2000 6 186 Adalius Thomas LB BAL 8 yrs
    2 2006 6 203 Sam Koch P BAL 5 yrs
    3 2006 5 146 Dawan Landry DB BAL 3 yrs
    4 2003 5 146 Aubrayo Franklin DT BAL 3 yrs
    5 2003 5 173 Tony Pashos T BAL 3 yrs
    6 2002 5 155 Terry Jones TE BAL 3 yrs
    7 2005 6 213 Derek Anderson QB BAL 2 yrs
    8 2000 6 191 Cedric Woodard DT BAL 2 yrs


    New England Patriots

    1 2000 6 199 Tom Brady QB NWE 8 yrs
    2 2003 5 164 Dan Koppen C NWE 7 yrs
    3 2005 7 230 Matt Cassel QB NWE 2 yrs
    4 2003 7 239 Tully Banta-Cain LB NWE 2 yrs
    5 2002 7 253 David Givens WR NWE 2 yrs

    New England was a surprise, I thought they might have done better than that.
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    I'm giving it a 2-4 year window. Looking for improvement in all areas. Redskins, you're on the clock.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rymanofthenorth View Post
    interesting, the OP has a lot of great information.

    Here is my theory.

    Based on what I've seen here, I'd like to do the same for 2nd & 3rd rounders. I think those are the "sweet spot" rounds, so to speak. Not coincidentally, the Redskins have missed or not had 2nd and 3rd rounders very frequently in this past decade.

    From 2000-2009, the Redskins had only 14 2nd and 3rd round picks, including 7 in two drafts (2002 & 2008). That's silly. There have been 660 2nd and 3rd round picks over that time period (including compensatory selections), an average of almost 21 per team. The Redskins have had 7 less picks to work with than every other team in the "sweet spot," and have suffered accordingly.

    Here is what they did with those picks:

    2009: Kevin Barnes, round 3
    2008: Devin Thomas, Malcom Kelly, Fred Davis, round 2, Chad Rhinehart, round 3
    2007: no picks
    2006: Rocky McIntosh, round 2
    2005: no picks
    2004: Chris Cooley, round 3
    2003: Taylor Jacobs, round 2, Derrick Dockery, round 3
    2002: Ladell Betts, round 2, Rashad Bauman, Cliff Russell, round 3
    2001: Fred Smoot, round 2
    2000: Lloyd Harrison, round 3

    For comparison, here is a list of teams that have had success in the past decade, and the number of 2 and 3 draft picks they've had:

    NYG 20
    NE 22
    PHI 23
    GB 23
    IND 22
    PIT 20
    SD 20
    DAL 19
    CHI 23
    NO 15
    BAL 19
    MIN 21
    CIN 23
    SEA 20
    ARI 23

    New Orleans is the only outlier, but they were able to secure Drew Brees in free agency.
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  12. #12

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    Here is the breakdown for rounds 2-3. Doesn't seem to support my theory, and its shocking to see Baltimore with only 1 pro-bowler from rounds 2-3. Not surprised in the least to see Pittsburgh and Philadelphia with a ton though. There are 88 pro-bowlers from rounds 4-7, three are 122 pro-bowlers from rounds 2-3.


    Pittsburgh 9
    Philadelphia 9
    Green Bay 7
    Arizona 7
    San Diego 6
    Chicago 6
    Buffalo 6
    Miami 5
    Denver 5
    Dallas 5
    Carolina 5
    Washington 4
    Tampa Bay 4
    Seattle 4
    New York (Giants) 4
    New England 4
    Indianapolis 4
    St. Louis 3
    San Francisco 3
    New Orleans 3
    Jacksonville 3
    Tennessee 2
    New York (Jets) 2
    Kansas City 2
    Detroit 2
    Cincinatti 2
    Atlanta 2
    Oakland 1
    Minnesota 1
    Houston 1
    Baltimore 1
    Cleveland 0

    Pro-bowlers by team:
    2004 Darnell Dockett Arizona 3
    2003 Anquan Boldin Arizona 2
    2003 Osi Umenyiora Arizona 2
    2001 Kyle Vanden Bosch Arizona 2
    2001 Adrian Wilson Arizona 3
    1998 Corey Chavous Arizona 2
    1997 Jake Plummer Arizona 2
    2004 Matt Schaub Atlanta 3
    2001 Alge Crumpler Atlanta 2
    2008 Ray Rice Baltimore 2
    2009 Jairus Byrd Buffalo 2
    2001 Aaron Schobel Buffalo 2
    2001 Travis Henry Buffalo 2
    1999 Peerless Price Buffalo 2
    1998 Sam Cowart Buffalo 2
    1997 Marcellus Wiley Buffalo 2
    2007 Ryan Kalil Carolina 2
    2001 Kris Jenkins Carolina 2
    2001 Steve Smith Carolina 3
    1999 Mike Rucker Carolina 2
    1996 Muhsin Muhammad Carolina 2
    2006 Devin Hester Chicago 2
    2003 Lance Briggs Chicago 3
    2000 Mike Brown Chicago 2
    1999 Marty Booker Chicago 3
    1998 Olin Kreutz Chicago 3
    1995 Todd Sauerbrun Chicago 2
    2001 Chad Johnson Cincinnati 2
    1997 Corey Dillon Cincinnati 2
    2003 Jason Witten Dallas 3
    2002 Andre Gurode Dallas 2
    1998 Flozell Adams Dallas 2
    1997 Dexter Coakley Dallas 3
    1994 Larry Allen Dallas 2
    2002 Clinton Portis Denver 2
    2000 Ian Gold Denver 2
    1998 Brian Griese Denver 3
    1996 Tory James Denver 2
    1996 Detron Smith Denver 3
    2001 Shaun Rogers Detroit 2
    1995 David Sloan Detroit 3
    2006 Greg Jennings Green Bay 2
    2005 Nick Collins Green Bay 2
    2000 Chad Clifton Green Bay 2
    1998 Mike Wahle Green Bay 2
    1997 Darren Sharper Green Bay 2
    1996 Mike Flanagan Green Bay 3
    1995 Antonio Freeman Green Bay 3
    2006 DeMeco Ryans Houston 2
    2004 Bob Sanders Indianapolis 2
    2000 Marcus Washington Indianapolis 2
    1997 Bertrand Berry Indianapolis 3
    1995 Ken Dilger Indianapolis 2
    2006 Maurice Jones-Drew Jacksonville 2
    2003 Rashean Mathis Jacksonville 2
    1996 Tony Brackens Jacksonville 2
    2008 Jamaal Charles Kansas City 3
    1999 Gary Stills Kansas City 3
    2001 Chris Chambers Miami 2
    1998 Patrick Surtain Miami 2
    1997 Sam Madison Miami 2
    1997 Jason Taylor Miami 3
    1994 Tim Ruddy Miami 2
    2007 Sidney Rice Minnesota 2
    2001 Matt Light New England 2
    1996 Lawyer Milloy New England 2
    1996 Tedy Bruschi New England 3
    1995 Curtis Martin New England 3
    2006 Roman Harper New Orleans 2
    2003 Jon Stinchcomb New Orleans 2
    2002 LeCharles Bentley New Orleans 2
    2007 Steve Smith New York (Giants) 2
    2005 Justin Tuck New York (Giants) 3
    2004 Chris Snee New York (Giants) 2
    1997 Tiki Barber New York (Giants) 2
    2005 Justin Miller New York (Jets) 2
    2000 Laveranues Coles New York (Jets) 3
    1995 Barret Robbins Oakland 2
    2008 DeSean Jackson Philadelphia 2
    2002 Michael Lewis Philadelphia 2
    2002 Brian Westbrook Philadelphia 3
    2001 Derrick Burgess Philadelphia 3
    1998 Jeremiah Trotter Philadelphia 3
    1998 Allen Rossum Philadelphia 3
    1996 Brian Dawkins Philadelphia 2
    1995 Bobby Taylor Philadelphia 2
    1994 Charlie Garner Philadelphia 2
    2007 LaMarr Woodley Pittsburgh 2
    2002 Chris Hope Pittsburgh 3
    2001 Kendrell Bell Pittsburgh 2
    2000 Marvel Smith Pittsburgh 2
    1999 Joey Porter Pittsburgh 3
    1998 Hines Ward Pittsburgh 3
    1997 Mike Vrabel Pittsburgh 3
    1995 Kordell Stewart Pittsburgh 2
    1994 Jason Gildon Pittsburgh 3
    2006 MarcusMcNeill San Diego 2
    2005 Vincent Jackson San Diego 2
    2004 Nate Kaeding San Diego 3
    2004 Nick Hardwick San Diego 3
    2001 Drew Brees San Diego 2
    1998 Jamal Williams San Diego 2
    2005 Frank Gore San Francisco 3
    1998 Jeremy Newberry San Francisco 2
    1996 Terrell Owens San Francisco 3
    2005 Lofa Tatupu Seattle 2
    2003 Ken Hamlin Seattle 2
    1998 Ahman Green Seattle 3
    1994 Kevin Mawae Seattle 2
    1999 Dre Bly St. Louis 2
    1998 Leonard Little St. Louis 3
    1994 Isaac Bruce St. Louis 2
    1999 Marin Gramatica Tampa Bay 3
    1997 Ronde Barber Tampa Bay 3
    1996 Mike Alstott Tampa Bay 2
    1996 Donnie Abraham Tampa Bay 3
    2005 Michael Roos Tennessee 2
    1998 Samari Rolle Tennessee 2
    2004 Chris Cooley Washington 3
    1999 Jon Jansen Washington 2
    1998 Stephen Alexander Washington 2
    1994 Tre Johnson Washington 2

    LOLz @ Tre Johnson.
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    Quote Originally Posted by servumtuum View Post

    What I did was select four teams, Redskins, Broncos, Patriots, and Ravens and narrowed the search into the following: players drafted in the fifth round or lower who have at least two years in the NFL as primary starters for their team, regardless of whether it was the team that drafted them or not, drafted between 1999 and 2008. The reasoning for choosing the Broncos should be obvious. I added the Pats and Ravens due to their respective reputations as among the best at the "art and science" of drafting players.

    Here's the results with the year drafted, the round, draft number, name, position. team drafting, and number of years as starter.

    Washington Redskins

    1 2002 5 160 Robert Royal TE WAs 6 yrs
    2 2006 6 196 Kedric Golston DT WAS 2 yrs

    Denver Broncos

    1 1999 6 179 Desmond Clark TE DEN 6 yrs
    2 2006 5 161 Chris Kuper G DEN 3 yrs
    3 2005 6 200 Chris Myers G DEN 3 yrs
    4 2000 6 189 Mike Anderson RB DEN 3 yrs
    5 1999 5 158 David Bowens DE DEN 2 yrs

    Baltimore Ravens

    1 2000 6 186 Adalius Thomas LB BAL 8 yrs
    2 2006 6 203 Sam Koch P BAL 5 yrs
    3 2006 5 146 Dawan Landry DB BAL 3 yrs
    4 2003 5 146 Aubrayo Franklin DT BAL 3 yrs
    5 2003 5 173 Tony Pashos T BAL 3 yrs
    6 2002 5 155 Terry Jones TE BAL 3 yrs
    7 2005 6 213 Derek Anderson QB BAL 2 yrs
    8 2000 6 191 Cedric Woodard DT BAL 2 yrs


    New England Patriots

    1 2000 6 199 Tom Brady QB NWE 8 yrs
    2 2003 5 164 Dan Koppen C NWE 7 yrs
    3 2005 7 230 Matt Cassel QB NWE 2 yrs
    4 2003 7 239 Tully Banta-Cain LB NWE 2 yrs
    5 2002 7 253 David Givens WR NWE 2 yrs

    New England was a surprise, I thought they might have done better than that.
    Nice work Serv, what really jumps out at me is not just the quantity of late round starters but much more importantly the QUALITY.

    Tom Brady we can agree was a fluke who is the exception not the rule, but lets look at some of the others. we will for arguments sake throw out Brady.

    The skins found Royal who was a decent journeyman level starter and Gholston who is a solid rotational DT, neither is ever gonna make a pro bowl or be an exceptional player.

    Denver, Desmond Clark was a solid TE and Mike anderson had a couple good years at RB, but the rest of those guys are journeymen at best.

    Now lets look at the ravens

    Thomas was a probowler at OLB and a very good player for several years, Pashos was good enough to start and played at a high level. aubrayo franklin is a solid DT who would start on many teams.

    now for NE, even throwing out brady who may be one of the best low round picks of all time, they have some bigtime talent.

    Banta cain has had a very good career and started at a couple spots. Koppen was a probowl center for a bit and a solid guard. Matt cassel is a very solid QB who would start for a lot of teams and givens was a starting receiver on superbowl winning teams who put up solid numbers.

    the big thing that jumps out is the contribution these guys make and I think its largely because of the system and they fit what their teams do.

    interesting stats though very interesting.
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    Lanky, those are eye opening numbers, I wonder how many of those second rounders arent just jacket players tho, how many actually contribute. I have always wondered if 2-3 is the sweet spot or oddly enough if its more 1 and 4. but thanks for spending the time to collate the info.
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