Elephant
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So you equate the turnovers that weren't his fault to his past history? Ok?
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The Contrarian Viewpoint: Grossman can play
- Thread starter Boone
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So you equate the turnovers that weren't his fault to his past history? Ok?
I hate to throw an extra doubt in here (not really, but...), but I can't help but wonder if at least some of Grossman's performance in the better-than-we-had-been-expecting category might be due to lack of exposure?
Serv- I think some of the better than expected performance came more from the lack of expectation category.
servumtuum
The Owner's Favorite
Serv- I think some of the better than expected performance came more from the lack of expectation category.
You may have a point, Chris. If Grossman's, um, inauspicious appearance in the Detroit game was used as a "this is what we can expect" measure then his recent performances would look close to spectacular in comparison.
Of course over his career he's averaged 1 INT per game (41 games, 40 INTs), according to Pro Football Reference and he has 4 INTs in 4 games this season so he's apparently not really any better or worse than he's ever been.
Tavairus Jackson will be a FA. Him or RG?
I rest my case.
RG is better than some think. A franchise QB? No. Good fit for the Redskins? Yep.
I rest my case.
RG is better than some think. A franchise QB? No. Good fit for the Redskins? Yep.
fansince62
Guest
first of all....let's look again at the play to Sellers...
1) he (Sellers) was reaching the out of bounds line...the play took too long to develop. RG also moved out of the pocket....per some reports I heard today the players are taught to turn upfield when it appears the QB is scrambling.
2) the point I was making was that I don't really care where fault lies. RG has a documented history of consistent turnovers. we saw the same for 3 games.
Here's what I know...RG represents a compromise with mediocrity because the Skins AND SHANAHAN royally screwed up in managing the roster at this key position. I understand we are stuck with him...I just detest the symbolism: we have to watch mediocrity for another year or two because the hole we dug is so deep. watch the guy...it's painful just watching his body language/movement on the field...IT SCREAMS MEDIOCRE ATHLETE!!! every fan in the NFC East is thinking this right now: "pls...pls...start REX!!!!"
Elephant
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Look, I am not saying Rex Grossman is the savior of this franchise. That would be foolish. What I am saying is that he is not as bad as you suggest and I will be content going into next season with him at the helm if we:
a.) Trade down from the ten spot to draft a center later in the first round.
b.) Decide to bolster the interior of the offensive line a little more with that extra pick.
c.) Draft Locker in the 2nd to mold if he can be molded.
d.) Trade McNabb and Haynesworth to acquire more picks, at least a 4th for them both and draft some defensive line and offensive line help!
I attended the game yesterday and watched closely the other two games Rex started. The young man may not have the physical talent that we would like, he may not have the power to throw like McNabb, he may turn the ball over more than he should, but he is a leader. I watched him march that team down the field against a good Giants defense last night only to fall short. The falling short part we can argue until we are blue in the face, Rex's fault, Sellers' fault, Gano's fault or Moss' fault. He drove the ball well under pressure much of the time. I even got a good laugh at his 2 yard scramble in the 3rd quarter because he looked goofy as hell. But he fought hard and has made some great plays in the time he has had here showing that he will suffice until we are able to upgrade. That pass to Armstrong was a great pass! He hit the man in stride and Armstrong walked into the endzone. When was the last time you saw a Skins' QB do that?
fansince62
Guest
I am resigned to RG. for all his virtues...how many points did we score last Sunday? and who overthrew the receiver for the game ending pick? It's not that he can't do capable things...it's taht he will inevitably undercut those with shots to the foot. with his tlaent limitations...he (and indirectly his team) can't afford his consistent turnovers.
too early to worry about RG. if he has to be endurred...so be it. it's not as though we haven't sat back and watched one abysmal QB performance after the next for lo these many years.
Rymanofthenorth
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at least he has some upside, I cant honestly say I am looking forward to another year of haslett.
PF Chang
Camp Fodder
Well, if it's all about the QB...
Common opponents:
Rex-led Skins vs Cowboys: 30 points
McNabb-led Skins vs Cowboys: 10 points (7 by def TD)
Rex-led Skins vs Giants: 14 points
McNabb-led Skins vs Giants: 7 points
If we want to say Grossman is not a capable QB, sure seems like we'd have to say that McNabb isn't one. One thing seems apparent; RG is a better fit for the offense. (FWIW, I don't think RG is a better overall QB than DM). It really doesn't matter that RG would be 4th out of 4 in the NFC East at the QB position as was mentioned earlier because so is McNabb, and any player we brought in would be in the same position.
The real question with Rex is, "what's the alternative?" The answer is that there isn't one, for now. Unless we want to trade what would likely be at least two firsts and a second to acquire Luck. I could argue for days about why that would be a terrible idea but that's another topic.
Common opponents:
Rex-led Skins vs Cowboys: 30 points
McNabb-led Skins vs Cowboys: 10 points (7 by def TD)
Rex-led Skins vs Giants: 14 points
McNabb-led Skins vs Giants: 7 points
If we want to say Grossman is not a capable QB, sure seems like we'd have to say that McNabb isn't one. One thing seems apparent; RG is a better fit for the offense. (FWIW, I don't think RG is a better overall QB than DM). It really doesn't matter that RG would be 4th out of 4 in the NFC East at the QB position as was mentioned earlier because so is McNabb, and any player we brought in would be in the same position.
The real question with Rex is, "what's the alternative?" The answer is that there isn't one, for now. Unless we want to trade what would likely be at least two firsts and a second to acquire Luck. I could argue for days about why that would be a terrible idea but that's another topic.
fansince62
Guest
agree on your last para.
I'm amused though...bad as McNabb was at times....he won 5 games and likely would have won one or two out of the last three (shere speculation on my part..I know). The results did not improve one iota with RG.
to be frank..I'm all for dropping conversation about Rex Grossman. Having to watch him play is enough punishment. discussing him borders on masochism!
PF Chang
Camp Fodder
I've been against the trade from day 1 (to the point of an outburst of 'no!!' the moment I heard). Outside of the outrageous price we paid, his skill set and inconsistency don't seem to fit Shanahan's offense.
Watching the Eagles over the years, I never came away thinking that McNabb was the reason for their success. ESPN and fans in general LOVE the "big play," which is McNabb's major strength. Yet most of the time when Philly played a good team with DM at the helm, they lost because good teams can take away that aspect of the game (see both Cowboys games last year). The NFCCG failures weren't some sort of bad luck or 'choke.' They were systematic and predictable. With Vick at the helm, who has somehow transformed into McNabb with better intermediate consistency, the Eagles are in far better shape, despite having one of the worst defenses I've ever seen them send out.
In this regard Andy Reid should get way more credit than he does. Yes, his time management is terrible, but his offensive schemes WORK. So to finally address the question (sorry, haha), I don't know why Shanahan thought this was going to work all of training camp. I agree that the blame lies with him. Shanahan is obviously a much better player evaluator than I am, but there are tons of red flags surrounding DM's fit in the offense that even the average fan can see. In that regard I have lost a bit of confidence in Mike. I knew the trade was bad from day one. Mike clearly didn't. Why is that?
It's not like McNabb became infinitely worse over one offseason, which made the whole situation this year very unsettling. I had utmost confidence in Shanny at the beginning of the year, but legend or not, his first year was not particularly good from a personnel management standpoint.
PF Chang
Camp Fodder
Agreed. While 4-12 was a low point, this isn't much better -- I'm currently defending Rex Grossman as the temporary starting QB for the Skins. Ugh.
fansince62
Guest
as others have noted...could be worse!
PF Chang
Camp Fodder
This is true. But 4-12 teams should rarely look in any direction but 'rebuild.' Thus far I don't think the coaching staff has proven they're on board with that. I like our offensive philosophy but at the same time, it says a lot that St. Louis and Detroit are in better shape than the Skins.
Lanky Livingston
Guest
Stats for the Grossman lovers, from Homer McFanboy's latest piece:
1. I cannot stress to you how awful Rex Grossman is at protecting the football. Seriously, words aren’t enough, so I’ll turn to numbers to illustrate my point. Grossman, as you know doubt know by now, turned the football over eight times in his brief time as a starting quarterback.
Conversely, Donovan McNabb coughed up the ball 16 times in 13 games. Over the course of a full 16-game season, McNabb was on pace to turn the ball over 20 times. I think we can all agree that’s not very good — especially for a quarterback who is, statistically speaking, one of the least intercepted passers in NFL history.
So how bad was Grossman? If he continued to be as careless with the football over the course of an entire 16-game season, he’d turn the ball over an astounding 43 times. That’s impressive, even for a guy with 56 turnovers in 37 career games played.
2. Speaking of Grossman, in addition to being a turnover machine, he’s also fairly predictable as well.
When attempting passes outside of the numbers, Grossman went 20 of 44 for 230 yards with one touchdown and four interceptions. That’s good enough to earn him a 31.4 quarterback rating.
Now, let’s compare that to his statistics between when attempting passes in the middle of the field. In those situations, Grossman completed 54 of 68 passes for 654 yards, with six touchdowns and no interceptions. That’s good enough to earn a 136.1 passer rating.
To recap: Grossman gets sacked once every eight times he drops back, he has no real pocket presence which is why he was on pace to set records for the most turnovers in a season and he can only complete passes in the middle of the field. But other than that, he’s great.
Unless your last name is Shanahan, you better pray like hell the Redskins use a draft pick on a quarterback.
link: http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2011/01/06/10-stats-from-redskins-2010-season/
1. I cannot stress to you how awful Rex Grossman is at protecting the football. Seriously, words aren’t enough, so I’ll turn to numbers to illustrate my point. Grossman, as you know doubt know by now, turned the football over eight times in his brief time as a starting quarterback.
Conversely, Donovan McNabb coughed up the ball 16 times in 13 games. Over the course of a full 16-game season, McNabb was on pace to turn the ball over 20 times. I think we can all agree that’s not very good — especially for a quarterback who is, statistically speaking, one of the least intercepted passers in NFL history.
So how bad was Grossman? If he continued to be as careless with the football over the course of an entire 16-game season, he’d turn the ball over an astounding 43 times. That’s impressive, even for a guy with 56 turnovers in 37 career games played.
2. Speaking of Grossman, in addition to being a turnover machine, he’s also fairly predictable as well.
When attempting passes outside of the numbers, Grossman went 20 of 44 for 230 yards with one touchdown and four interceptions. That’s good enough to earn him a 31.4 quarterback rating.
Now, let’s compare that to his statistics between when attempting passes in the middle of the field. In those situations, Grossman completed 54 of 68 passes for 654 yards, with six touchdowns and no interceptions. That’s good enough to earn a 136.1 passer rating.
To recap: Grossman gets sacked once every eight times he drops back, he has no real pocket presence which is why he was on pace to set records for the most turnovers in a season and he can only complete passes in the middle of the field. But other than that, he’s great.
Unless your last name is Shanahan, you better pray like hell the Redskins use a draft pick on a quarterback.
link: http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2011/01/06/10-stats-from-redskins-2010-season/
Rymanofthenorth
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I count 3 and outs as turnovers, I wonder how that particular stat would affect Mcnabbs supposedly better turnover rating? The fact is, Grossman ran the offence better, does he turn the ball over too much? yes, but does he move the ball better? yes .
Lanky Livingston
Guest
3 and outs are NOT turnovers, so it wouldn't affect McNabb's turnover rating one bit.
43 turnovers projected! 43!
Rymanofthenorth
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LMAO, if you are the QB and throw a ball into the dirt on 1st down, and then cant get another first down, that does tend to affect your offence. I dont like Grossman, he is inconsistent and turns the ball over too much but he ran the offence better than Mcnabb, Mcnabbs stats were skewed by the fact that he will make a 60 yard pass that wont lead to points.
someone made a comment that Rex lucked out against the cowpies, but in the game we won with Mcnabb playing QB we failed to even score a TD with our offence.
Truth is, we are gonna be hurting at QB next year even if we draft someoen because rookies coming in and dominating only happens when a team has a solid team around them and a defence that isnt pathetic. If we have to have someoen take the shots behind a new Oline in a season where we know we arent gonna have a chnace, why not Rex? Or do you actually think we will have a better chance at winning next year? because unless we spend a pile of money on free agents, I dont.
someone made a comment that Rex lucked out against the cowpies, but in the game we won with Mcnabb playing QB we failed to even score a TD with our offence.
Truth is, we are gonna be hurting at QB next year even if we draft someoen because rookies coming in and dominating only happens when a team has a solid team around them and a defence that isnt pathetic. If we have to have someoen take the shots behind a new Oline in a season where we know we arent gonna have a chnace, why not Rex? Or do you actually think we will have a better chance at winning next year? because unless we spend a pile of money on free agents, I dont.
fansince62
Guest
ok...but it's almost guaranteed that by game 8 most of us will be cursing him as a major impediment to success.
PF Chang
Camp Fodder
That is probably true, but honestly I don't think it will matter either way. This team is not going to be successful a year from now regardless of who is at QB. The 25th ranked scoring offense and 22nd ranked scoring defense have no chance of transforming that quickly.
What's crazy is that the D might have even been a little lucky last year. Just off the top of my head I can think of two lost fumbles while our opponent was at the one yard line.
It sounds like a lot of players aren't expected back (Rocky, Carter, etc) and that we are moving toward a true rebuild. What hurts is that Rocky has what, five years experience in the league? I like that Shanny is moving toward a rebuild. I just hope it works out..
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